D
- Status
I
InLight247
Guest
Ok, I will add “in such a powerful way” at the end of the “,” of my sentence. Better?
You interpret it wrong. Again, that is not what I mean.
Happy Memorial Day!
D
DebChris
Guest
As I step away from these last posts, the words that are going through my mind are the greeting given by the priest at every Mass, “May the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all,” to which we respond, “And also with you.”
Have a Blessed Memorial Day.
Have a Blessed Memorial Day.
U
una_fides
Guest
It does demonstrate the very common problem that many participants involved in the movement focus more on practicing what they believe to be supernatural gifts rather than teaching Catholic dogmas. This problem however not only exists in the cm but also in a great deal of modern Catholic churches.
I am not sure if the person who posted this was a Catholic charismatic or not. If they are not, then that would be the typical response of protestant charismatics, on whom the Catholic charismatic movement claim the Holy Spirit first brought about these gifts and sustained them for decades before informing or communicating these “gifts” to Catholics. (see my other posts for more about this phenomenon.)
To be fair, I think it may have also been a blunder of speech, but yes, it does demonstrate an attitude as if the sacraments are not needed as long as one has a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. So why do charismatics even need the Church? Many of them who have been posed with that question have left the Church in favor of more relaxed pentecostal churches (as can be especially seen among Hispanic Catholics in many traditionally Catholic areas).
D
DebChris
Guest
As I step away from this thread, it is the words of the Mass by which we are greeted that come to mind.
“May the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all,” to which we respond “And also with you.”
Sunday is Corpus Christi…
Everybody, have a Blessed Memorial Day.
“May the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all,” to which we respond “And also with you.”
Sunday is Corpus Christi…
Everybody, have a Blessed Memorial Day.
G
guanophore
Guest
I would not call it a “practice” as much as a phenomenon. We can see numerous examples of human beings being overwhelmed by the presence of the HS throughout Biblical history.
“As he was speaking to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and set me on my feet.”
Dan 8:18
It is not a state of sleep, because the person is very awake to the supernatural world.
The power of the HS overshadows the person, and their own ability to hold themselves up fails.
John 18:5-6
6 When he said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
Just because something is “incomprehensible” to the human mind does not make it “babblings”. This is thinking with the carnal mind. Jesus rebuked such thinking when He was speaking of the mystery of eating His flesh.
“For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.”
1 Cor 14:1-2
I agree that these gifts have not been emphasized throughout the history of the Church, but it is wrong to say that they don’t have theri origins in the Catholic faith. The NT is all about Catholics,and what is written there belongs to Catholicism.
The Church has preferred to instruct the faithful to focus on the Giver of the gifts, rather than the gifts themselves.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
These are all excellent answers given to Una Fides. They have been given to him before, but he just does not think the Charismatic Renewal is authentic. It has been pointed out and references and sites given showing what Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have all said about the renewal and how they encourage it. Scriptural references, commentaries on those references and all have been given. For whatever reason, they have not been accepted… This is like times 2 or 3 or 4 going over all the same things. This is for your information.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
P
Pani_Rose
Guest
These are two wonderful resources
**Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ccc.garg.com/index.php?module…display&bkid=3
Open the Windows: The Popes and Charismatic Renewal **
ccc.garg.com/index.php?module…display&bkid=2
There is a third one, I can’t remember the name of it, that the good fathers did.
**Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ccc.garg.com/index.php?module…display&bkid=3
Open the Windows: The Popes and Charismatic Renewal **
ccc.garg.com/index.php?module…display&bkid=2
There is a third one, I can’t remember the name of it, that the good fathers did.
U
una_fides
Guest
I have been busy for the past few days and have been unable to respond to the many comments directed to me. I have read numerous calls to “put an end” to the controversy and calling the faith charismatics put in what they believe to be regularly occurring supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. I wish to end with a response to Joy Song and then with one last post.
Joysong, I think your comments demonstrate that you cannot stand the fact I am calling into question things that you have embraced to be true, and I can understand your concern and the strong emotions it must have brought about in you. Though I don’t know you, I still love you and will pray for you and the others who have posted on this thread. The most important thing for all of us is to keep our minds and eyes open to God that he will lead us to the fullness of the truth. I trust that you all would agree that we do not need strong emotional experiences to know that he is God and that he is true and his revelation he has revealed through his Church must be the basis for our foundation and grounding.
Lastly, it is essential that if anyone, even the pope, seems to give approval to any movement or religion, we must first base the firm foundation of our faith to what has already been firmly established. I believe like most of you that we are living in the last days, and at times like these, there will be much deceit that will be spread throughout the world in the name of God, as we can obviously see happening in the plethora of religions and denominations growing daily. In this time of moral breakdown and religious indifferentism, let us all cling steadfastly to the traditional Catholic faith that has been handed on to us from the apostles and let us beg for light from heaven and never be afraid to forsake anything for Christ, even things we have previously considered to be true. I will post one last thought, and I will be finished on this thread.
God bless.
JoySong, your calling me a “false prophet” again demonstrates an uncharitable personal attack on your part. I have provided a great deal of information on this site and in reading previous posts, I think that many people before me (such as DustinsDad) also brought up very important questions concerning the charismatic movement. Your attack on the few sites I posted demonstrates your desire to paint me as one who is trying to spread a false message, when in reality if you read that post, I said that I did not approve of those sites!! What I said was that they provide useful critiques of the charismatic movement. They were primarily directed against the protestant charismatic movement as well. I also admittedly did not read the entire contents of those sites, but in browsing through them, I did notice several important questions they raised and thought it could be beneficial for others to read both sides of the story before embracing the protestant-founded charismatic movement in however it manifests itself.
Joysong, I think your comments demonstrate that you cannot stand the fact I am calling into question things that you have embraced to be true, and I can understand your concern and the strong emotions it must have brought about in you. Though I don’t know you, I still love you and will pray for you and the others who have posted on this thread. The most important thing for all of us is to keep our minds and eyes open to God that he will lead us to the fullness of the truth. I trust that you all would agree that we do not need strong emotional experiences to know that he is God and that he is true and his revelation he has revealed through his Church must be the basis for our foundation and grounding.
Lastly, it is essential that if anyone, even the pope, seems to give approval to any movement or religion, we must first base the firm foundation of our faith to what has already been firmly established. I believe like most of you that we are living in the last days, and at times like these, there will be much deceit that will be spread throughout the world in the name of God, as we can obviously see happening in the plethora of religions and denominations growing daily. In this time of moral breakdown and religious indifferentism, let us all cling steadfastly to the traditional Catholic faith that has been handed on to us from the apostles and let us beg for light from heaven and never be afraid to forsake anything for Christ, even things we have previously considered to be true. I will post one last thought, and I will be finished on this thread.
God bless.
U
una_fides
Guest
Here are my closing thoughts that I hope you all will strongly consider. I hope they are received with grace and charity.
Charismatic Catholics agree that the charismatic movement first reached the Catholic Church as a result of Protestants laying hands on Catholics during a Protestant led assembly at a retreat. Such participation with non-Catholics, however, on the part of the Catholics in attendance, demonstrates a clear breaking with the 2000 year teaching of the Catholic Church–which is that Catholics are forbidden to participate in the spiritual assemblies of non-Catholics. Here are some official pronouncements by popes and canon law on the matter:
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “… this Apostolic See has never
allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics…”
Pope Pius IX, Neminem vestrum (# 5), Feb. 2, 1854: “We want you to know that those same monks sent Us a splendid profession of Catholic faith and doctrine… They eloquently acknowledged and freely received the regulations and decrees which the popes and the sacred congregations published or would publish – especially those which prohibit communicatio in divinis (communion in holy matters) with schismatics… They acknowledge that they condemn the error of the schismatic Armenians and recognize that they are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Pope Pius VI, Charitas (# 31-32), April 13, 1791, speaking of priests who went along with the notoriously heretical civil constitution of the clergy in France: “Above all, avoid and
condemn the sacrilegious intruders… do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship.”
Canon 1258.1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.”
Thus, the protestant pentecostal movement made its way into the Catholic Church as a result of disobeying Catholic teaching and accepting and adopting the practices of those who were outside of Church and who rejected the Church, her teachings, and her grace.
A few questions for reflection:
Can the Holy Spirit fill those who openly reject God’s Church and disobey her laws? Could such a movement be legitimate and if so what message does this send to those who wonder if it is permissible to violate official Church teaching and seek salvation outside the Church? Could the Holy Spirit fill those groups whom God has infallibly proclaimed through his Church that members of which “cannot inherit eternal life but will perish in everlasting fire”? (see my earlier post on no salvation outside of the Church or research the Church’s traditional teaching and infallible pronouncements on the matter.)
Despite what many on this site have otherwise indicated, the goal of the CCM is the conversion of ALL Catholics to become part of the movement. Though some individual charismatics may say it is an option, the goal of the movement is to get all to “experience” what they believe is the fullness of God’s grace and his Spirit. This fact is evidenced not only in the attitude of many charismatic Catholics towards traditional Catholics–that they are somehow “missing out” on the fullness of the Holy Spirit–but also in many statements made by those within and leading the group. I do not have time to post the many statements by leaders of this movement, but I urge anyone involved in the movement or curious about it to research it for yourself, and you will see the truth, that it desires the whole world to be charismatic.
Here is a website promoting the CCM and that calls for the conversion of all Catholics to Protestantism!! ccmhq.com/cathmission.htm. It claims that the way to do it is through the CCM. Furthermore, it explicitly teaches that the Roman Catholic faith was corrupted and that the holy Catholic Church is the evil Babylonian religion led by the anti-Christ condemned in Scripture. Please note that these teachings are evil and wrong and contrary to God’s grace and to the fullness of the truth, yet they are the foundation on which the charismatic movement was laid and the mentality with which it is promoted and promulgated within the Catholic Church today. (Again please note that the site above is complete falsehood and full of evil teachings, and I have only posted it to demonstrate the truth about the motives of many charismatics, especially those who are not Catholic, which are those who are in the same boat as those who started the movement).
In response to those who say that the movement is officially endorsed, regardless of whether that is true, one cannot blindly accept a non-infallible endorsement from individual bishops as being enough when a movement has serious conflicts with the traditional Catholic faith. Moreover, a study of history demonstrates that there were times in the Church’s history when the majority of bishops endorsed formal heresy. And yes it is even possible for popes to formally embrace a movement and the Church to later condemn that movement and condemn those pope’s actions for endorsement. This does not mean that those popes would be guilty of heresy, but it does mean that they are human and fallible when they do not actively and explicitly exercise their infallibility. I suggest a thorough reading of the Church’s teachings on this matter, as the Church has even set forth means by which popes can be condemned as heretics by future popes in order to maintain the purity of the Catholic faith.
In conclusion, as I said in my last post, let us all (myself included) continue to humbly beg for light from heaven that God would grant us his wisdom, guide us to the fullness of his truth, and that we would humbly follow him and the Tradition of his Church.
Charismatic Catholics agree that the charismatic movement first reached the Catholic Church as a result of Protestants laying hands on Catholics during a Protestant led assembly at a retreat. Such participation with non-Catholics, however, on the part of the Catholics in attendance, demonstrates a clear breaking with the 2000 year teaching of the Catholic Church–which is that Catholics are forbidden to participate in the spiritual assemblies of non-Catholics. Here are some official pronouncements by popes and canon law on the matter:
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “… this Apostolic See has never
allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics…”
Pope Pius IX, Neminem vestrum (# 5), Feb. 2, 1854: “We want you to know that those same monks sent Us a splendid profession of Catholic faith and doctrine… They eloquently acknowledged and freely received the regulations and decrees which the popes and the sacred congregations published or would publish – especially those which prohibit communicatio in divinis (communion in holy matters) with schismatics… They acknowledge that they condemn the error of the schismatic Armenians and recognize that they are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Pope Pius VI, Charitas (# 31-32), April 13, 1791, speaking of priests who went along with the notoriously heretical civil constitution of the clergy in France: “Above all, avoid and
condemn the sacrilegious intruders… do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship.”
Canon 1258.1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.”
Thus, the protestant pentecostal movement made its way into the Catholic Church as a result of disobeying Catholic teaching and accepting and adopting the practices of those who were outside of Church and who rejected the Church, her teachings, and her grace.
A few questions for reflection:
Can the Holy Spirit fill those who openly reject God’s Church and disobey her laws? Could such a movement be legitimate and if so what message does this send to those who wonder if it is permissible to violate official Church teaching and seek salvation outside the Church? Could the Holy Spirit fill those groups whom God has infallibly proclaimed through his Church that members of which “cannot inherit eternal life but will perish in everlasting fire”? (see my earlier post on no salvation outside of the Church or research the Church’s traditional teaching and infallible pronouncements on the matter.)
Despite what many on this site have otherwise indicated, the goal of the CCM is the conversion of ALL Catholics to become part of the movement. Though some individual charismatics may say it is an option, the goal of the movement is to get all to “experience” what they believe is the fullness of God’s grace and his Spirit. This fact is evidenced not only in the attitude of many charismatic Catholics towards traditional Catholics–that they are somehow “missing out” on the fullness of the Holy Spirit–but also in many statements made by those within and leading the group. I do not have time to post the many statements by leaders of this movement, but I urge anyone involved in the movement or curious about it to research it for yourself, and you will see the truth, that it desires the whole world to be charismatic.
Here is a website promoting the CCM and that calls for the conversion of all Catholics to Protestantism!! ccmhq.com/cathmission.htm. It claims that the way to do it is through the CCM. Furthermore, it explicitly teaches that the Roman Catholic faith was corrupted and that the holy Catholic Church is the evil Babylonian religion led by the anti-Christ condemned in Scripture. Please note that these teachings are evil and wrong and contrary to God’s grace and to the fullness of the truth, yet they are the foundation on which the charismatic movement was laid and the mentality with which it is promoted and promulgated within the Catholic Church today. (Again please note that the site above is complete falsehood and full of evil teachings, and I have only posted it to demonstrate the truth about the motives of many charismatics, especially those who are not Catholic, which are those who are in the same boat as those who started the movement).
In response to those who say that the movement is officially endorsed, regardless of whether that is true, one cannot blindly accept a non-infallible endorsement from individual bishops as being enough when a movement has serious conflicts with the traditional Catholic faith. Moreover, a study of history demonstrates that there were times in the Church’s history when the majority of bishops endorsed formal heresy. And yes it is even possible for popes to formally embrace a movement and the Church to later condemn that movement and condemn those pope’s actions for endorsement. This does not mean that those popes would be guilty of heresy, but it does mean that they are human and fallible when they do not actively and explicitly exercise their infallibility. I suggest a thorough reading of the Church’s teachings on this matter, as the Church has even set forth means by which popes can be condemned as heretics by future popes in order to maintain the purity of the Catholic faith.
In conclusion, as I said in my last post, let us all (myself included) continue to humbly beg for light from heaven that God would grant us his wisdom, guide us to the fullness of his truth, and that we would humbly follow him and the Tradition of his Church.
J
Joysong
Guest
Una Fides,
There are so many blatant errors in your posts that it would take an enormous amount of time to address them all adequately, time which I have no desire to expend since you are not going to listen. You engage in a cut-and-paste manner of posting papal documents to support what you want the reader to believe as truth, yet it is so far from truth that I really wonder where you obtain this information. I do recognize and commend you for the ability to do extensive research for documenting your own private viewpoint, while dismissing truthful resources from others. It does expose your adamant rejection of the CCR and your determination to vilify the movement as false and heretical.
You allege that bishops endorsed heresy in history, as a clever ruse to dismiss the approval of three recent popes, and persist again in stating that the popes may condemn the movement, while audaciously hinting that there are procedures to condemn popes as heretics. It is almost laughable that you charge them with failing to exercise their infallibility in their approval of CCR, as if that excuses you from belief in their authority. Yet at the same time you present out-of-context wording from encyclicals that are NOT infallible from previous popes to back up your own condemnation of the movement.
Referring to your excerpt from Pius VI, in 1791, Pius VI wrote a non-infallible encyclical called Charitas, which was “On the Civil Oath in France. You submitted that isolated matter pertaining to a single country as though it has bearing in the universal church as current church teaching. From the document:
I truly believe and will state again that you are deliberately, although maybe inculpably delivering false teachings on this movement, and I do maintain therefore that your view is that of a false prophet. That is not an attack, it is simply truth.
There are so many blatant errors in your posts that it would take an enormous amount of time to address them all adequately, time which I have no desire to expend since you are not going to listen. You engage in a cut-and-paste manner of posting papal documents to support what you want the reader to believe as truth, yet it is so far from truth that I really wonder where you obtain this information. I do recognize and commend you for the ability to do extensive research for documenting your own private viewpoint, while dismissing truthful resources from others. It does expose your adamant rejection of the CCR and your determination to vilify the movement as false and heretical.
You allege that bishops endorsed heresy in history, as a clever ruse to dismiss the approval of three recent popes, and persist again in stating that the popes may condemn the movement, while audaciously hinting that there are procedures to condemn popes as heretics. It is almost laughable that you charge them with failing to exercise their infallibility in their approval of CCR, as if that excuses you from belief in their authority. Yet at the same time you present out-of-context wording from encyclicals that are NOT infallible from previous popes to back up your own condemnation of the movement.
Referring to your excerpt from Pius VI, in 1791, Pius VI wrote a non-infallible encyclical called Charitas, which was “On the Civil Oath in France. You submitted that isolated matter pertaining to a single country as though it has bearing in the universal church as current church teaching. From the document:
- With these divine precepts in mind, We have just learned of the war against the Catholic religion which has been started by the revolutionary thinkers who as a group form a majority in the National Assembly of France.
I’m sure you spent several hours on line to locate a website that puts the entire approved movement into doubt. Kinda like looking for a clown mass to demonstrate that all Catholic masses are full of abuses. Maybe you should have listed that with the other heretical links you submitted earlier, demonstrating your true motives.
I would have expected to see this from you, for it is an error held by most traditionists and endlessly debated in the TC forum and does not reflect the mind of the Church’s teaching in V-II documents and the CCC. I also note that you quote Canon Law 1917 for your reference, rather than the current Canon. Could it be that you are SSPX? These schismatics reject the new canon for obvious reasons, and also reject the late popes. The fact that you only quote from popes in antiquity strongly suggests your defection from current church teachings and popes, notably on ecumenism … which is objected to by many traditionists.
Propaganda again, Una. Not factual other than hearsay that you picked up somewhere, as is your persistent contention that the movement originated through a protestant assembly. You are extremely off base in what you present as truth.
We are speaking about an approved CATHOLIC movement. This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with charismatics who are NOT Catholics. Read thread title again.
I truly believe and will state again that you are deliberately, although maybe inculpably delivering false teachings on this movement, and I do maintain therefore that your view is that of a false prophet. That is not an attack, it is simply truth.
D
DebChris
Guest
Thanks Joysong. For one of my classes, I have to create a fact sheet on the Mennonites. In the course of my research, I found a website that calls Vatican II the counter church. Obviously, I didn’t give that much credibility. It overlooks the reality that Vatican II was a gathering of the Magisterium. Councils have been formed throughout history to address the various issues facing the Church. The Council of Trent, for instance formed to confront the Protestant Reformation. It is so easy to take this thread into an arena covered by other threads on this site. Jesus prayed that “all might be one.” Regardless of whether or not we call ourselves conservative or traditional, is it not the goal of every Christian, Catholic or non-Catholic, to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?
C
christisall
Guest
Dream on.
C
christisall
Guest
Amen, but some, Like Lefebvre and others put themselves above the Pope (above the succesor to Peter) and here is a person saying he has better discernment than not one but all of the Holy Fathers sinces the Renewal had begun. That is more anti-Peter, anti-Catholic, anti-traditional Catholic than anything he is insinuating, especially considering the Apostles spoke in tongues, and obedience to Peter is in fact required, it shouldn’t be questioned, and submission is required as well. We have enough groups that do that, women ordination, married priests, etc.
It’s like those who argue on the Church’s position on birth control, or abortion, saying we don’t agree with your position.
You don’t have to particpate in this Charismatic Renewal, but if you condemn it while our recent past Popes Popes have praised it, always urging to stay closely aligned with the Church, in my mind you are not submitting fully to the Roman Catholic Church, plain and simple. Just like when Peter said he couldn’t go to the Gentiles, God showed Him in a vision that is what He wanted, the Spirit is speaking in many ways today.
You can also come up with a thousand quotes and reasons but these reasons are like chaffe because Peter has spoken on this issue. So I’d suggest to quit kicking against the goads so to speak.
It’s like those who argue on the Church’s position on birth control, or abortion, saying we don’t agree with your position.
You don’t have to particpate in this Charismatic Renewal, but if you condemn it while our recent past Popes Popes have praised it, always urging to stay closely aligned with the Church, in my mind you are not submitting fully to the Roman Catholic Church, plain and simple. Just like when Peter said he couldn’t go to the Gentiles, God showed Him in a vision that is what He wanted, the Spirit is speaking in many ways today.
You can also come up with a thousand quotes and reasons but these reasons are like chaffe because Peter has spoken on this issue. So I’d suggest to quit kicking against the goads so to speak.
Una Fides,
There are so many blatant errors in your posts that it would take an enormous amount of time to address them all adequately, time which I have no desire to expend since you are not going to listen. You engage in a cut-and-paste manner of posting papal documents to support what you want the reader to believe as truth, yet it is so far from truth that I really wonder where you obtain this information. I do recognize and commend you for the ability to do extensive research for documenting your own private viewpoint, while dismissing truthful resources from others. It does expose your adamant rejection of the CCR and your determination to vilify the movement as false and heretical.
You allege that bishops endorsed heresy in history, as a clever ruse to dismiss the approval of three recent popes, and persist again in stating that the popes may condemn the movement, while audaciously hinting that there are procedures to condemn popes as heretics. It is almost laughable that you charge them with failing to exercise their infallibility in their approval of CCR, as if that excuses you from belief in their authority. Yet at the same time you present out-of-context wording from encyclicals that are NOT infallible from previous popes to back up your own condemnation of the movement.
Referring to your excerpt from Pius VI, in 1791, Pius VI wrote a non-infallible encyclical called Charitas, which was “On the Civil Oath in France. You submitted that isolated matter pertaining to a single country as though it has bearing in the universal church as current church teaching. From the document:
I’m sure you spent several hours on line to locate a website that puts the entire approved movement into doubt. Kinda like looking for a clown mass to demonstrate that all Catholic masses are full of abuses. Maybe you should have listed that with the other heretical links you submitted earlier, demonstrating your true motives.
- With these divine precepts in mind, We have just learned of the war against the Catholic religion which has been started by the revolutionary thinkers who as a group form a majority in the National Assembly of France.
I would have expected to see this from you, for it is an error held by most traditionists and endlessly debated in the TC forum and does not reflect the mind of the Church’s teaching in V-II documents and the CCC. I also note that you quote Canon Law 1917 for your reference, rather than the current Canon. Could it be that you are SSPX? These schismatics reject the new canon for obvious reasons, and also reject the late popes. The fact that you only quote from popes in antiquity strongly suggests your defection from current church teachings and popes, notably on ecumenism … which is objected to by many traditionists.
Propaganda again, Una. Not factual other than hearsay that you picked up somewhere, as is your persistent contention that the movement originated through a protestant assembly. You are extremely off base in what you present as truth.
We are speaking about an approved CATHOLIC movement. This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with charismatics who are NOT Catholics. Read thread title again.
I truly believe and will state again that you are deliberately, although maybe inculpably delivering false teachings on this movement, and I do maintain therefore that your view is that of a false prophet. That is not an attack, it is simply truth.
C
christisall
Guest
Yes, I agree on the SSPX possibility or soemthing like it, I sense as well, as I have seen with certain sects who think they are the true church, they don’t give full authority to the Popes they don’t like. I would say when I do see this it is absolutely cultish. I don’t know if that’s the case here, but when people have their own agenda, they can really twist things.
Una Fides,
There are so many blatant errors in your posts that it would take an enormous amount of time to address them all adequately, time which I have no desire to expend since you are not going to listen. You engage in a cut-and-paste manner of posting papal documents to support what you want the reader to believe as truth, yet it is so far from truth that I really wonder where you obtain this information. I do recognize and commend you for the ability to do extensive research for documenting your own private viewpoint, while dismissing truthful resources from others. It does expose your adamant rejection of the CCR and your determination to vilify the movement as false and heretical.
You allege that bishops endorsed heresy in history, as a clever ruse to dismiss the approval of three recent popes, and persist again in stating that the popes may condemn the movement, while audaciously hinting that there are procedures to condemn popes as heretics. It is almost laughable that you charge them with failing to exercise their infallibility in their approval of CCR, as if that excuses you from belief in their authority. Yet at the same time you present out-of-context wording from encyclicals that are NOT infallible from previous popes to back up your own condemnation of the movement.
Referring to your excerpt from Pius VI, in 1791, Pius VI wrote a non-infallible encyclical called Charitas, which was “On the Civil Oath in France. You submitted that isolated matter pertaining to a single country as though it has bearing in the universal church as current church teaching. From the document:
I’m sure you spent several hours on line to locate a website that puts the entire approved movement into doubt. Kinda like looking for a clown mass to demonstrate that all Catholic masses are full of abuses. Maybe you should have listed that with the other heretical links you submitted earlier, demonstrating your true motives.
- With these divine precepts in mind, We have just learned of the war against the Catholic religion which has been started by the revolutionary thinkers who as a group form a majority in the National Assembly of France.
I would have expected to see this from you, for it is an error held by most traditionists and endlessly debated in the TC forum and does not reflect the mind of the Church’s teaching in V-II documents and the CCC. I also note that you quote Canon Law 1917 for your reference, rather than the current Canon. Could it be that you are SSPX? These schismatics reject the new canon for obvious reasons, and also reject the late popes. The fact that you only quote from popes in antiquity strongly suggests your defection from current church teachings and popes, notably on ecumenism … which is objected to by many traditionists.
Propaganda again, Una. Not factual other than hearsay that you picked up somewhere, as is your persistent contention that the movement originated through a protestant assembly. You are extremely off base in what you present as truth.
We are speaking about an approved CATHOLIC movement. This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with charismatics who are NOT Catholics. Read thread title again.
I truly believe and will state again that you are deliberately, although maybe inculpably delivering false teachings on this movement, and I do maintain therefore that your view is that of a false prophet. That is not an attack, it is simply truth.
J
JKS
Guest
I’m new, having joined the forums only this week. I just skimmed through this thread today, beginning with a fairly positive impression of the Charismatic renewal. Your vitriol against questioners has given me a bad impression of the charismatic movement. I saw one of you refer to us as “ordinary Catholics”, and imply that we don’t have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You’re coming across as arrogant. You can claim that I’m misinterpreting your words if you want, but you don’t seem like the kind of Catholics I want to inspire me. The last guy you ran out of here, you called him SSPX?
Just one other question: I did read once, somewhere (not anything verified) that someone heard someone speaking in tongues, and it turned out the speaker was cursing God in a Chinese dialect. Might have been Protestant, but I’m don’t know. I would be interested in hearing if any sessions have been taped so that we can verify this?
Also, having read that the Azusa Street Revival (somewhere around post 750 or 800?) was the Protestant response to Pope Leo’s prayers? It isn’t a good thing, in my book.
We’ll see how things go, I guess.
Just one other question: I did read once, somewhere (not anything verified) that someone heard someone speaking in tongues, and it turned out the speaker was cursing God in a Chinese dialect. Might have been Protestant, but I’m don’t know. I would be interested in hearing if any sessions have been taped so that we can verify this?
Also, having read that the Azusa Street Revival (somewhere around post 750 or 800?) was the Protestant response to Pope Leo’s prayers? It isn’t a good thing, in my book.
We’ll see how things go, I guess.
P
Plain_Catholic
Guest
Without any attempt at being uncharitable, Una Fides, you are caught in a perseverative loop. You are repeating once again that which has been proven incorrect through Scriptures, Papal decrees/statements and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Tis good you are closing your thread on this as you have not opened your mind to the possibility of humility on your own part. Humility mandates that you consider the fact that you are not licensed by the Vatican to teach. Therefore your conclusions vis a vis that which the Vatican has taught betrays a pride that tis a stumbling block for you.
Obedience is the cornerstone of all the virtues. You can choose to obey the Magisterium and accept the fact that the Charismatic movement is approved by the Vatican. Or you can choose to disobey the Vatican on this matter in which case that places you on very thin ice, canonically.
Go with God and humility; you shan’t regret it.
D
DebChris
Guest
The biggest objection that I am reading against the Charismatic Renewal has to do with the manifestation of the gifts among non-Catholics, overlooking the reality that the gifts have been given to individuals throughout the history of Christianity.
I had the opportunity to attend Mass today. The priest gave a different interpretation of the Sadducee than I have heard before. We generally do not think of the Sadducee as persons of faith. They closely guarded what they held to be true and found it difficult to see how God might work differently than they imagined. Could God possibly work wonders through a non-Jew? Yet we know that a Canaanite women touched Jesus and was healed. She was an outsider, a “dog.” Could what the Sadducee believed be somehow flawed?
Our society teaches us if something seems to good to be true, it probably is. We are warned about scams and scam artists, We are inundated by advertisements of products that fail to meet expectations. Is it any wonder that somebody might be skeptical when I say I have something special and I want you to have the same thing?
The reality is that we charismatics are ordinary people who have been given extraordinary gifts. We are regular Catholics. We attend Mass and engage in other pious practices. As the readings from Sunday remind us, we are called to do the Will of God. It is not the gifts themselves which will lead us into heaven. It is not our pious practices. It is not checking off completed tasks on a to do list of the shoulds and should nots of Catholic Christianity. It is how we use our gifts to further the kingdom of heaven.
Many Catholics do not know the power they possess. The release of the gift of the Holy Spirit is just that. It is asking God to more fully draw us into an intimate relationship with Him who created us. It is being open to the gifts that He might choose to give any one of us. It is tasting of the rich fare of the banquet table without being afraid that this is “too good to be true.” It is only when we take that first bite that we discover just maybe something was missing from our life. Come and taste the sweetness of the Lord. Once we have eaten our fill from the banquet table, once we have been given these special gifts, it is a matter of discerning how God would have us use what we have been given.
I had the opportunity to attend Mass today. The priest gave a different interpretation of the Sadducee than I have heard before. We generally do not think of the Sadducee as persons of faith. They closely guarded what they held to be true and found it difficult to see how God might work differently than they imagined. Could God possibly work wonders through a non-Jew? Yet we know that a Canaanite women touched Jesus and was healed. She was an outsider, a “dog.” Could what the Sadducee believed be somehow flawed?
Our society teaches us if something seems to good to be true, it probably is. We are warned about scams and scam artists, We are inundated by advertisements of products that fail to meet expectations. Is it any wonder that somebody might be skeptical when I say I have something special and I want you to have the same thing?
The reality is that we charismatics are ordinary people who have been given extraordinary gifts. We are regular Catholics. We attend Mass and engage in other pious practices. As the readings from Sunday remind us, we are called to do the Will of God. It is not the gifts themselves which will lead us into heaven. It is not our pious practices. It is not checking off completed tasks on a to do list of the shoulds and should nots of Catholic Christianity. It is how we use our gifts to further the kingdom of heaven.
Many Catholics do not know the power they possess. The release of the gift of the Holy Spirit is just that. It is asking God to more fully draw us into an intimate relationship with Him who created us. It is being open to the gifts that He might choose to give any one of us. It is tasting of the rich fare of the banquet table without being afraid that this is “too good to be true.” It is only when we take that first bite that we discover just maybe something was missing from our life. Come and taste the sweetness of the Lord. Once we have eaten our fill from the banquet table, once we have been given these special gifts, it is a matter of discerning how God would have us use what we have been given.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Excellent response. What those in opposition to the Charismatic renewal do not realize is that we all receive these gifts through baptism and Confirmation. The renewal simply helps us unfold them and put them to use.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
W
walker_p
Guest
Thank you. Well said. I agree totally. This charismatic nonsense is just protestant heresy that has infected the Church. It is time to rid Christ’s Church of this charismatic baloney. If someone tells me they were “slain in the Spirit”, I tell them they were demon possessed. Jesus said “many will say to me on that day 'Lord did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many mighty works. And I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Depart from me you evil doers.” I think it should say " many pentecostals and charismatics will say to me on that day 'Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many mighty works. And I will tell the charismatics and pentecostals, I never knew you. Depart from me you evil doers.Quite a deflection there Deacon.Good job, no great job actually. Yes, I am well aware of the commentary and I am well aware of the Charismatic gifts as stated in scripture.I accept them in their entirity and believe deeply that those gifts can be manifested at the pleasure of the Holy Spirit. But I see no evidence at all that Charismatics today equal or even come close to what was done then.
I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers going outside of the Church and asking those who reviled the Church to lay hands upon them and thus expose them to the Holy Spirit, as happened at the beginning of the movement…
I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers or any of the Saints for that matter, requesting baptism of the Holy Spirit in a separate apparently more meaningful ceremony, to unlock the gifts or bring them to life . Nope I must have missed that completely.
In fact Deacon, I don’t recall hearing about a Charismatic movement at all within the Church ever until after Vatican II and close association with those who deny the truth of the Holy Mother Church and insist that it, the Church sends most of its members to Hell through the teaching of a false gospel…
Quoting scripture till you’re blue in the face to prove or disprove a point, is an old protestant trick. They dreamed it up and they perfected it. It really doesn’t work though except with people who haven’t read scripture and other patristic works. They can be easily mislead and tripped up by this method. people who are knowledgeable about Scripture, history and the other patristic works, will seldom if ever be tricked by smooth taking verse quoting salesmen of a particular line. And thats really all they are, salesman.
As far as the Charismatics making the Eucharist the center of the mass, when do they do actually do that? After everyone is tired from being slain in the spirit, I’d actually like a scriptural reference for that one Deacon, or from propheysizing or from the extended private prayer in a language that only the one praying even understands? Or maybe after fifty of sixty dubious sicknesses have been healed perhaps. Of course, silly me, I thoughthe Eucharist was the center of the mass for all, not just the charismatics. Whatever did we do in the barren dreary pre charismatic days? How did we ever make it?
And no, Deacon, as I said, I have never doubted the Holy Spirit, or felt that he was neglected as many charismatics do. In fact I think the Holy Spirit does what he does and chooses who He wants regardless as to what we as humans want. You can get as huffy and chesty as you want. What happened in the early Church and now, are two distinct different things no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. To even try to compare the charismatic movement to the apostles and what happened to them, I think, verges on blasphemy, to tell you the truth.
Tell you what Deacon, since you like throwing out old texts, why don’t you read up on Montanus? In fact since you like Jerome, read what he had to say about your charismatic ancestors, the followers of Montanus. . Montanus’ charismatic group was full of signs and wonders and healings and ecstatic utterances and everything else that charismatics today claim and do as their own, Why they even claimed private prayer languages and the Holy Spirit using them as instruments of His divine will. In fact thy did just about everything charismatics today do except getting slain in the spirit .Even old Montanus didn’t go that far.
And just in case you don’t know, , Jerome took them, the Montanists, to task, saw through their nonsense and totally put them in their place.
Oh and Deacon just for the record, How do you know that I don’t know , as you inferred?That actually seems quite presumptuous.
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