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Milliardo
Guest
Actually no, since atheists don’t really care much about Islam, and as far as they’re concerned is actually much worse when it comes to logic than Christianity is.
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deLeontine
Guest
Jesus and Mary as depicted in the Quran have nothing whatsoever in common with the Jesus and Mary of the Bible. The "Jesus’ of the Quran is somebody named ‘Isa’ who will supposedly return to destroy all other religions except Islam.
‘Paul corrupted the Bible’ is a familiar Muslim claim - please tell us how this occurred - was Paul simply permitted to change the teachings of Jesus to suit himself, with no protest from those who had lived and talked with Jesus? I don’t think so.
The reason that Paul is a target of Muslims is simple - if Paul is right, it means that the Quran is wrong.
So this poster is yet another Muslim with an agenda - ie, to redefine Christianity in order to legitimise Islam.
‘Paul corrupted the Bible’ is a familiar Muslim claim - please tell us how this occurred - was Paul simply permitted to change the teachings of Jesus to suit himself, with no protest from those who had lived and talked with Jesus? I don’t think so.
The reason that Paul is a target of Muslims is simple - if Paul is right, it means that the Quran is wrong.
So this poster is yet another Muslim with an agenda - ie, to redefine Christianity in order to legitimise Islam.
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ALotLessThumb
Guest
Obviously, us American posters are trying to say we need to save Europe from itself.
We seem to have this innate need to storm Normandy again, and we are looking for an excuse. 
From this side of the Atlantic, things do look a bit concerning. Perhaps it is the unconcious knowledge that what is happening culturally in Europe tends to catch up with us over here a few years down the line.
However, before we talk about Charlemange, may I gently remind my American bretheren that there is plenty of work to be done over here. I get the impression (forgive me if I am wrong) that most of the posters on this messageboard come from the American South/Midwest- well I can attest to the Northeast needing a bit of work when it comes to faith.
It saddens me to see the traditional culture fall away, though I have met many fine religious folk, orthodoxy (or the resemblance of it) seems hard to find.
I’m going to slip in an antecodote, if you allow me; but having gone to Catholic school and growing up in a town that is overwhelming compromised of Catholics and Catholic immigrants, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in my age (18 to 30) group who may still hold onto any sort of Christian beliefs (other than the vague notion that Jesus was a ‘good guy’ and that God is a ‘caring father’.) The Catholic Youth retreats were run by the few Pentecostals/Non-Denominationals (rather liberal ones,) who promoted such things as sex before marriage.
And no priest that I know of was concerned, they were just glad to get the kids here to talk about God.And these were the “fruits” that grew under His Emminence, Cardinal Egan. I was a very young child when he left our diocese as bishop; and though things have gotten a little (and I mean a little) better under Bishop Lori- not much has changed. This isn’t meant as a condemnation of either man; but a method to gauge the desparation of the situation. Both men are rather prominent American Catholic figures, and they could barely make a dent in the area.
I was extremely blessed with a very learned priest, an almost saintly man who was youthful and had the energy to work with children when I was growing up- if not for Fr.Cyprian, I am not sure I would have any interest whatsoever in theology.
So before we worry about the future of Europe, how about we focus on the future of America?
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deLeontine
Guest
Why on earth would anyone believe that Europeans would be ‘sitting in caves eating our children’ if not for Islam? And when did Europeans ever eat their children? The 7th century was a time of confusion in Europe because of the fall of the Roman Empire.
However, the Roman Empire continued in the east as the Byzantine Empire, a bastion of Christianity and one of the great trade centres of the world. It helped to shield Western Europe from early Muslim expansion, provided a stable gold currency for the region, influenced the laws, political systems, and customs of much of Europe and the Middle East, and preserved much of the literary works and scientific knowledge of ancient Greece, Rome, and many other cultures.
I wonder why you aren’t living in some Islamic paradise right now, where you could experience the wonders of Islam – like living under rigid religious laws because there is no separation of religion and state? Or being one of four wives? Or being forbidden to question the pronouncements of ‘clerics’ - like the ‘religious leader’ in Saudi Arabia who claims the world is flat (because the Quran says so) and anyone who denies it should be punished?
The small country of Spain publishes more books annually than the entire Muslim world.
‘No hard feelings but I know which side I’m on’. The situation of beautiful Europe ruined by Muslim barbarism will not happen if Europeans wake up in time. Laws can be changed overnight.
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Kaninchen
Guest
What on earth does that mean - from the invented threat of ‘Muslim barbarism’ to the laws that ‘can be changed overnight’?
A final solution to the Muslim problem, perhaps?
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Kaninchen
Guest
That’s understandable but what if it had not just lost meaning but was seen as a major part of the problem?
It’s long been my theory that what happened in Europe in the first half of the last century - the First World War, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, reactionary Catholic regimes in Eastern Europe and the Iberian Peninsula and (overwhelmingly) the great cataclysm of the Second World War had an effect on the ‘European mind’ somewhat similar to that wrought of the Black Death in the fourteenth century that provided a backdrop to the following century’s era of ‘Reformation’.
It wasn’t just that none of the old certainties had worked and none of the new certainties worked - all of them were ‘part of the problem’.
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ralphinal
Guest
There you go. I had a history professor, who was a Brit, and he put it this way:
“After the two World Wars, many in Europe decided that there was no God. After all, what God would allow this. In America, they decided that there was a God. After all, He put us here to save the world twice.”
Secularism is rampant, but it is not the damaging force many see it as. Islam is a threat to our way of life, but it is not all powerful. In the end, civilization will evolve along the course set out for it by God. There will be some losses and some gains, but it will keep going on.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
You are the one flaming people with all that nonsense. Strong tradition of intellectual inquiry…riiiighht.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
the strenght of this tradition is limited to islamic law. their development of algebra became necessary to simplify Islam’s inheritance law. their development of optics were to help them read the quran. coffee was made to take their minds off of liquor. otherwise they had no use for other sciences that cant be used with Islam which is why they stagnated and got left behind.
And what makes you think that its Islamic to slice & dice embryos?
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LaMar
Guest
Europe has never been very beautiful and Muslims aren’t going to ruin it. Muslims took over Spain and ruled it for hundreds of years. It was consistently the wealthiest, most tolerant, most pleasant place to live on the continent. It was only when the reconquista started that the country went down the tubes.
I could make a conversion to Islam tomorrow, and live the rest of my life as a Muslim. What would I have to change about my life? Almost nothing. In 50 years, the average European will be a Muslim. There will still be hospitals in Europe. There will still be fine dining. There will still be museums. If anything, I envy you people. Here in the supposedly secular USA (which actually is “beautiful”) we’ve had a slow coup of fundamentalist whack-jobs who will remake North America in the same time frame, and these idiots are my odds on favorites to destroy the entire world.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
It was Jewish management that turned the moorish state into a success. When the muslims massacred and brought down the jews into their rightful places as dhimmies, thats when the Moors started to lose it.
The Moral of the lesson is…DONT MESS WITH JEWS.
Its the jews that you should be siding with, dude. for some mystical reason, success is tied in with these fellows.
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morning_star777
Guest
atheism it a great challenge to christianity in western country but islam is the biggest threat for christianity.i am feeling pity for western ppl cuz then couldn’t guess it yet.onced islam will invade west then islam will devour christianity.but this so called secular christians don’t understand it.if muslim will win the west then west will turn in to horrible arab countries.but wat should i do?only jesus can save christians.
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morning_star777
Guest
but my 1 question,if western ppl want to destroy themselves will god save them?i think western country should stop the immigration of muslims.&religious ppl should be active to back the faith of christians.then only west can be save.
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LaMar
Guest
Converting to Islam would not be destruction.
Personally, I think everyone, everywhere, should join the Church of the Stripe Cat. How about you Morning Star? Why don’t you convert? We’ve got pork, coffee, and anything else you’d like. You don’t have to believe in fairy tales or spook stories. You just do the best you can and enjoy yourself.
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morning_star777
Guest
mr.lamer are you muslim or christian?ur profile says that you are non religious.anyway converting to islam is not destruction i know.but who is converting?muslims birth rate is very high.muslim think that christians are profane so they can love them but can’t marry without convert.&u know i secretly become christian,don’t have courage to reveal myself cuz your muslims aren’t so peacefull that you think.thanks
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Kaninchen
Guest
Pretty good description of pretending there’s a good reason to put up with another batch of people who “really, really do know what the answer is . . .”
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LaMar
Guest
To answer your question, I’m a Mormon, but I’m quite skeptical so it’s be easier to label me an atheist as far as religion goes (Mormon almost approaches an ethnicity in some ways).
I know your story and I’m sorry your neighbors are such dolts that they can’t accept your own personal spiritual choices. I agree that this is unacceptable. I’m glad the Catholic church works for you and brings you closer to G-d, and I do hope things get better for you.
All that aside, the Muslims in my town seem like lovely people. They are (generally speaking, of course) good citizens, family oriented people, and people who mind their own business and stay out of trouble. Many, if not most of the local Muslims are converts who grew up here (i.e. people of European descent). The immigrant Muslims came here to get away from the looneys who take religion too seriously, so they’d probably sympathize with you and not condemn you.
It’s all about following your conscience, so I wish you only the best. Peace brother.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
It really does not matter about the total number of Christians any particular time in history. Our numbers fluctuate–and anyone who reads history knows this is so. There are periods of cynicism and unbelief–and there are periods of revival–and repentence.
The secularists tout declining Church memberships in the West, yet seem flabbergasted on the hold Islam continues to have over its adherants–even in the West.
Materialism just does not have the staying power it thinks it has.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0412fea3.asp
Yup, some old “crank” saw this coming over 60 years ago
The answer–That the Church teaches it’s Eternal Truths with Conviction and Beauty
In the words John Paul the Great,
“Be not afraid!”
The secularists tout declining Church memberships in the West, yet seem flabbergasted on the hold Islam continues to have over its adherants–even in the West.
Materialism just does not have the staying power it thinks it has.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0412fea3.asp
Yup, some old “crank” saw this coming over 60 years ago
The answer–That the Church teaches it’s Eternal Truths with Conviction and Beauty
In the words John Paul the Great,
“Be not afraid!”
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Oh my goodness, it’s another bunch of apocryphals! Somewhere, there exist a group, permanently touting and being flabbergasted.
Who could these apocryphals be?
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morning_star777
Guest
thanks mr.lamar for ur wishing.and maybe ur native muslims aren’t bad.but i heard about maximum immigrant muslims they are violent.&muslim ppl can love non muslim(i think the love drama is a nasty way to convert other ppl to islam),but don’t marry untill they wont covert to islam.so i think who converts in this way they don’t love islam but love their lover.who can exchange their god for so called love actually it turns to just then.
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