Charles Martel and the Fall of Europe

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Kaninchen said:
That’s understandable but what if it had not just lost meaning but was seen as a major part of the problem?
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Well, that is something that I find good to keep in mind…
It’s long been my theory that what happened in Europe in the first half of the last century - the First World War, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, reactionary Catholic regimes in Eastern Europe and the Iberian Peninsula and (overwhelmingly) the great cataclysm of the Second World War had an effect on the ‘European mind’ somewhat similar to that wrought of the Black Death in the fourteenth century that provided a backdrop to the following century’s era of ‘Reformation’.
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It wasn’t just that none of the old certainties had worked and none of the new certainties worked - all of them were ‘part of the problem’.
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I take a similiar viewpoint, we are still experiencing the effects of those past events.

However, I question whether it is correct to frame it as the rejection of any certainties. There was certainly paradigm-shifts; but of what exactly? I know a lot of people, especially alarmists like to point to this sinful behavior or that sinful behavior and point to some vague evil that’s overtaking people. I am unsure of this… I also question (especially considering the Christian background of this topic) how much more “orthodox” in belief and practice people were previously as compared to today. In that English Reformation topic I started, when I look at the process of the whole thing, it is hard to imagine much difference in beliefs and actions of the people back then compared to the people today. So I am unsure if problems arise out of a lack of belief. I am more susceptible to the separation of faith and morals in a myriad of ways being the agent of change…

But I wouldn’t deny that there are problems, and these problems have been around with humans since the beginning, so it is hard to gauge what is going on when our media and communication systems have made it easier to be aware of how pervasive they are. It isn’t like one can simply point to some distant past where “the seven deadly sins” were non-existent.

When I posted that it saddens me a few days ago, I did so in exasperation; but I am acutely aware that it was an emotional response that I cannot yet intellectually justify. If I attempted to rationalize these feelings, it would obviously point to the formation of my conscious and what I find to be the moral actions and beliefs that society should adopt. But then don’t I sort of fall into the Humean is/ought problem when I’m traveling along this line of thinking? 😛 And that isn’t even mentioning how in all, I am in no position (especially at my age and education level) to deem what is just for other people. There may not be a “golden age” past; but it would be frustrating to not hope for a better tomorrow. And I believe it saddens me because I see a value in some of the old customs/belief systems that people seem to be leaving by the wayside.

I know I’ve referenced this before; but Rosseau was one of the first to really write about the beauty of the Alps. And only someone like he could write about the beautiful of the wild and untamed part of nature; being the critic that he is. People are attracted to the uncultivated, when they are dissatisfied with what has been cultivated and worked on. I am not a Christian myself; but it is painful to see a culture that has been worked on for so long being destroyed. I don’t like to watch things be consumed in destruction. If it’s God’s will- so be it; but I wish there were more cultivation taking place. Instead, we are given a lot of reactionary and defensive thinking, and a lot of waiting around for some miraculous turn around; while the replacement for it, in my estimation, is lacking in many regards.

I wonder how much the television age has contributed to a topic like this. How influenced people are because of the fairy tale-like programs of the 50s and 60s, which I say were the result of adults who lived through two world wars and a world wide depression programmed to idealize life for children. Which in turn has shaped the thinking of a whole generation. This can be seen from John Lennon singing, “Nothing is real…” to the need for movies (more than ever I’d say) to use “based on a true story” as an enticing tagline- because people assume the unreality of everything surrounding them. When people complain about politics here in America, the way they other side is portrayed is often in a demonized/cartoonish/fantasical kind of way. A good guy vs. bad guy fare that in many respects mimics old westerns. How much of this is true, and how much of this is typical human behavior? 🤷 Do we as religious Americans see the “bad guy” secular or Islamic Europe creeping up, and as the “good guys” we want someone to have us come and save the day?
Too much thinking on a topic really too large to address. The best any of us can do really is to make sure we do the right thing, and go from there. 🤷
 
ALotLessThumb said:
There may not be a “golden age” past; but it would be frustrating to not hope for a better tomorrow. And I believe it saddens me because I see a value in some of the old customs/belief systems that people seem to be leaving by the wayside.
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Well, I guess that I’m rather skeptical both about the concept of a ‘golden age’ and that things are worse and getting worse - I’d suggest that Europeans are more ‘civilized’ now than they’ve ever been and that European culture is in a pretty good state. Mind you, I’m not the kind of person who gets into paroxysms over the presence of a few million Muslims amongst 500 million Europeans, for example, and wouldn’t have rioted over Stravinsky’s ‘Rite’, shook my head over ‘All Quiet On The Western Front’ or seen Shostakovich’s 4th Symphony as an attack on proletarian culture.

Most of all this fuss is about loss of control and loss of regard - after centuries (millennia) of people (the people who ‘matter’, the people who have not ‘mattered’ have often not done so but that didn’t matter!) doing what they’re told (especially women), they have stopped listening.

So we get these parades of moral panic and ‘unless Europe does what the Pope says, unless European women get back to prodigious breeding, the flavor of the day ‘enemy’ (currently Muslims) will first infest and then take over.’ Sorry but I’m descended from German Jews, we’ve heard all this before, in the most civilized European country, supposedly.

Fortunately, I would suggest, in a variant of ‘what if they declared a war and nobody came’, the moral panic has been declared somewhere else.
Do we as religious Americans see the “bad guy” secular or Islamic Europe creeping up, and as the “good guys” we want someone to have us come and save the day?
Too much thinking on a topic really too large to address. The best any of us can do really is to make sure we do the right thing, and go from there. 🤷
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I think religious Americans would be better employed in ascertaining what ‘real world’, measured, differences there may be between the indices of naughtiness. In what ways are the terrible, secular Europeans actually worse than the good god-fearing United States?

It might be embarrassing.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think religious Americans would be better employed in ascertaining what ‘real world’, measured, differences there may be between the indices of naughtiness. In what ways are the terrible, secular Europeans actually worse than the good god-fearing United States?

It might be embarrassing.
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Well, I can’t say in which ways Europeans are worse than Americans. But you might want to be less critical of Americans, since you are going to have to seek refuge here someday if you don’t want to live under Sharia law. By 2035, you’ll eat your words and move here. Set your watch.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Well, I can’t say in which ways Europeans are worse than Americans. But you might want to be less critical of Americans, since you are going to have to seek refuge here someday if you don’t want to live under Sharia law. By 2035, you’ll eat your words and move here. Set your watch.
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Well, by then, set your watch, the current United States will be merely a part of Mexico.
 
Kaninchen said:
Fanatical Catholics killed thousands in the UK in the last few decades, if that’s not barbarism, what is?

Fanatical Protesants also killed their share of Catholics.The events you refer to were part of an ongoing conflict hundreds of years old, and originating in the invasion of Ireland by the British. This is an apples and oranges comparison, the two situations have nothing in common. Muslims are foreigners in Europe and have brought their intolerant beliefs and religious hatreds with them. The Irish conflict was political and economic, the paramilitaries did not murder people for ‘disrespecting Christianity’ or rape women for not wearing an item of clothing.

What flood? If you were talking about the hundreds of thousands of Catholics from Eastern Europe, you’d be more accurate.
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Eastern European Catholics are at least European - they do not come from a society at war with us and bring repugnant customs like so-called ‘honour killings’ with them.
 
Check the birth rates, people.

While Europeans are busy schtupping without any concern for reproduction and in far too many cases aborting the by-products of their prophylactic lapses, Muslims are continuing to reproduce at a truly prolific rate.

These Muslims are inoculated against Western Skeptism the same way they are inoculated against any sympathy with Zionism: they are told repeatedly from a very early age that European culture is moribund, decadent and Satanic and that Jews are subhuman destroyers of all Allah’s good creations.

Unfortunately, they are correct about Europe being lost.

Many of them believe that the West needs to be saved from itself, from its trend toward moral suicide and that Islam will save it.
 
Having said that, America is not heaven, we have many of the same struggles and a few that are specific to our own situation.

With regard to “Islamification” though, it would appear that we are in a better condition than Europe, at this time.

We may have the “luxury” of witnessing the fall of Europe and having time to take the steps necessary to prevent it here…

Unless we elect Obama.

Then all bets are off.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Just like the Brits once thought we would be part of Britain.
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Look, if you’re allowed to make ridiculous statements about Muslims in Europe, I’m allowed to make ridiculous statements about Mexico taking over the United States.
 
Kaninchen said:
Look, if you’re allowed to make ridiculous statements about Muslims in Europe, I’m allowed to make ridiculous statements about Mexico taking over the United States.
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I guess we’re both allowed to say what we think. Native Euopean populations are in real collapse. Simultaneously, their nations are importing Muslims whose birth rates are very high and who do not assimilate. Be assured, though, that I take no joy in the impending demise of European society; being of European descent myself.

Obviously, you do not know many Mexicans, who typically assimilate into American society in one generation if not sooner.
Sharing a Corona on Cinquo de Mayo is no more a threat to American society than is sharing a glass of stout on St. Patrick’s Day. Mexicans are Christian westerners who share virtually all American vaues before they ever set foot on American soil. There have always been large numbers of people of Hispanic descent in the U.S., and virtually all consider themselves “Americans” every bit as much as do Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans and all the other “hypenated Americans”? I know hundreds of “Mexicans”, and it’s true.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I guess we’re both allowed to say what we think. Native Euopean populations are in real collapse. Simultaneously, their nations are importing Muslims whose birth rates are very high and who do not assimilate. Be assured, though, that I take no joy in the impending demise of European society; being of European descent myself.
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Well, of course, since you’re an American you’ll know much more than a European would about the situation. Personally, I don’t see 1.6 million Muslims in the UK, for example, taking over the from the other 60 million but, obviously, you know better.

I expect that the near three quarters of a million Eastern Europeans (mainly Catholic Poles) who’ve turned up over the last few years are in the UK so they can be overwhelmed by the 1.6 million Muslims as well.

On the other hand, it just might be that American paranoias don’t travel well.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I guess we’re both allowed to say what we think. Native Euopean populations are in real collapse. Simultaneously, their nations are importing Muslims whose birth rates are very high and who do not assimilate. Be assured, though, that I take no joy in the impending demise of European society; being of European descent myself.

Obviously, you do not know many Mexicans, who typically assimilate into American society in one generation if not sooner.
Sharing a Corona on Cinquo de Mayo is no more a threat to American society than is sharing a glass of stout on St. Patrick’s Day. Mexicans are Christian westerners who share virtually all American vaues before they ever set foot on American soil. There have always been large numbers of people of Hispanic descent in the U.S., and virtually all consider themselves “Americans” every bit as much as do Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans and all the other “hypenated Americans”? I know hundreds of “Mexicans”, and it’s true.
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I would like to add that most who never assimilate stay here, work, and eventually go back once enough money is made. Can the same be said for the Muslims who come into Europe?
 
I have long thought European countries ought to adopt an “open borders” policy to Hispanics from the Western Hemisphere. No, they ought to send ships over to give them free passage. They already speak a European language, are good workers and would make you very glad they are there. Yes, and they’ll fill your churches as well. Spain even has a “historic excuse” to open its borders to them. It can give them preference on the pretense of “making reparations” for its former colonialism. Once they’re EU members, the other European nations can welcome them.
 
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