Chastity, American Culture, and dating in your 30's

[1ke]

dulcissima:

1ke, You’ve offerred me some really great advice in the past which I really appreciate; however, on this particular thread you seem a little bit more judgmental than perhaps you mean to be.

Perhaps you are right. Certainly not intended to be harsh or judgmental. Merely my observation that the premise is that chastity is an unfair burden that handicaps the process of finding a mate and dooms one to being alone. That is how the post came across.

dulcissima:

I mean, I think guy is doing great and
maybe just needs some encouragement.

If I handled it badly, I apologize. I didn’t mean to be mean. But, I guess in general posts on message boards often don’t convey the meaning behind the words. I don’t know,maybe I should not post after 6 pm… it didn’t come out right at all.

dulcissima:

Truthfully, I am not even single yet, and I’ve been thinking over a lot of the same things and worrying about it a little bit.

Actually, I don’t understand why this is a concern at all. I met my share of frogs who thought sex was an important part of a dating relationship and I told them to hit the road. It’s not a bad reflection on me but on them. I guess anyone who knew me very much at all knew that wasn’t even an option, and so they mostly avoided me anyway. I consider this a good thing, not a bad thing.

I met plenty of men who believed in chastity, yet we were not meant for each other for whatever reason. If all you meet are the latter, then maybe look in new places. It took me a while (most of my 20s) to figure out I was often looking in the wrong places (even when I started looking at Church).

dulcissima:

I’m not sure if that is me putting the horse before the cart or just trying to be prepared to handle future problems. Anyhow, I think what he is feeling is really understandable, and I don’t see him as the other son in the parable of the prodigal’s son, at all.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I guess what I was trying to say was that he has everything, but he doesn’t see it. That is how the ‘loyal son’ was in the parable-- he has it all but doesn’t recognize it. Chastity is a gift, not a burden. So easily being able to spot “wrong” women is a gift, not a burden. Being saddled with a non-committed, non-practicing spouse is a burden. He can easily weed them out, and yet he sees it as a bad thing. A woman not committed to chastity is NOT worth his time. And, there are women who are committed to chastity out there. There are women committed to faith out there. And, when he finds that person, he’ll have a pearl of great price.

dulcissima:

That being said, I think giving into committing a mortal sin just because you think it might lead to a greater good, really isn’t the way to go. So, following your conscience and God’s commands cost you a relationship, but really it probably saved you from marrying the wrong person. I think someone who doesn’t respect your conscience is not someone with whom you should be considering married life.

Yes, definitely.

 

[1ke]

cynic:

so a person is not allowed to feel lonely or desire a companion?

I did not say that.

cynic:

And once you do get married, then you’re supposed to view it as a job (the vocation), and love the other person only because you’re commanded to.

I did not say that either.

 

[LittleDeb]

T1pp:

Please no more books about why it is important to save sex for marriage. We know that. Just show us how to get there.

:clapping: Well said! I have told my parents in recent years, " I always knew sex belonged only in marriage. What I didn’t know was how to make that happen." They were shocked because their culture in the early 60’s made it difficult to be unchaste. Not so for my generation.

 

[T1pp]

montanaman:

Testing… I think a post of mine was deleted…

Sorry…That thread was in the Family Life forum. I wasn’t sure which was the more appropriate forums to post in, so put it in both. They closed that one.

 

[T1pp]

:clapping: Well said! I have told my parents in recent years, " I always knew sex belonged only in marriage. What I didn’t know was how to make that happen." They were shocked because their culture in the early 60’s made it difficult to be unchaste. Not so for my generation.

Thank you Li’l Debbie

 

[BlindSheep]

cynic:

If you married somebody simply because you wanted to be with them, well that would be very bad thing, since you were acting on a desire, or a feeling - ans worse still a feeling specific to one person, oh no, the sin of idolatry and infatuation!

Can I buy one of those strawmen to keep the birds out of my garden?

 

[T1pp]

BlindSheep:

Can I buy one of those strawmen to keep the birds out of my garden?

Sorry…kind of new to online discussion forums. What’s a strawman?

 

[1ke]

:clapping: Well said! I have told my parents in recent years, " I always knew sex belonged only in marriage. What I didn’t know was how to make that happen." They were shocked because their culture in the early 60’s made it difficult to be unchaste. Not so for my generation.

I really don’t get what is so difficult about the commentment to chastity and how to make it happen. It’s called personal responsibility and accountability.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

T1pp–

Some of the things you’ve said concern me. Let me explain:

I have a bunch of friends who are consecrated celibates, in a relgious order. (I myself am a newly married man). My friends, along the way of discerning their vocation, have been coached at length about the goodness and virtues of marriage. Their pastors have told them how awesome a witness to Christ a good marriage can be. The idea is: they ought to know the full truth first, before they make any hasty decision to embrace another truth.

When my wife and I started courting, we were trained (by pastoral-type people we listened to and respected) to look upon our courtship the way my friends looked upon considering celibacy. Courtship was about process, not possession. We felt often overwhelming desires toward each other, but we held each other accountable to chastity.

If we had sinned and had sex before marriage, it would have hurt our relationship, and the passion of our courtship. But it wouldn’t have been the end of the world. God has a little thing called forgiveness.

It. Is. Possible. Even. In. This. Culture. To. Remain. Chaste.

But it is hard. It’s *always * been hard.

Satan wants to convince us that sexual sins are the end-all, be-all of who we are. This leads us to self-condemnation and – worse yet – to condemn those around us. But let’s just step back and realize:

We all are sinners. Get over it.

My monk friends still struggle with lust.

Married folks – like me – still struggle with sexual sin.

Single people often have a hard time living chastely before marriage.

The point is: God loves us. Where He provides a test, He will provide the means to pass the test. And if we fail, He will forgive us.

Thank God!!!

We can’t give up on marriage: if for no other reason, because it would KILL vocations. People like you and me become the parents of the people that lead this church.

You *can * find a holy woman to marry. (Note: she will be a sinner, too). You just have to have courage, and look in the right places.

God bless you!

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

If you’re looking for a chastity success story outside of internet dating, let me offer myself - my wife and I dated/were engaged for over five years before we got married. No sex before the sacrament. It can be done.

I suggest that instead of looking at the potential “losses” that occur from striving for holiness, you look at the objective good of the situation. If you are managing to stay chaste (which is, as some have pointed out, still a struggle for me as a married person), you must be living a life full of tremendous graces! God can be trusted to love us no matter what. Furthermore, and so encouraging, we can trust that if we conform ourselves to His Will and Grace all things will work toward our ultimate good. If cooperating with God by remaining chaste did happen to mean that you never married, then God would obviously have called you to even greater holiness! You can’t lose if you return love for Love.

 

[Philena]

Should the Church do a better job of preparing its faithful to live a life solitude and loneliness?

Yes.

And should the Church shift gears and start promoting a lifestyle of solitude for its lay people, since it is unlikely that marriage is achievable without sinning mortally?

Yes.

The reason that I say “yes” to those two questions is that, as a single mother with children, I find no support in my parish for me and my children. None. Zilch. Zero.

Everything is geared to families, intact families - husbands and wives. We have no singles ministry for those of us in our 30’s and 40’s. No divorced ministry. At least the Protestant churches face reality and do offer those ministries, even in my small town. As a divorced person in my parish I feel like an outcast.

So yes, I think that the Church should prepare someone for a life without a spouse. I thought and I still think that I had a vocation for marriage. But it didn’t turn out that way. Now what? is the question.

 

[T1pp]

Andreas Hofer:

If you’re looking for a chastity success story outside of internet dating, let me offer myself - my wife and I dated/were engaged for over five years before we got married. No sex before the sacrament. It can be done.

I suggest that instead of looking at the potential “losses” that occur from striving for holiness, you look at the objective good of the situation. If you are managing to stay chaste (which is, as some have pointed out, still a struggle for me as a married person), you must be living a life full of tremendous graces! God can be trusted to love us no matter what. Furthermore, and so encouraging, we can trust that if we conform ourselves to His Will and Grace all things will work toward our ultimate good. If cooperating with God by remaining chaste did happen to mean that you never married, then God would obviously have called you to even greater holiness! You can’t lose if you return love for Love.

So far in our running tally of successfull chaste courtships, we have 2 Catholics-R-Us mail order husbands; a guy whose inner circle of friends consists of a bunch of monks, and you. Your the only one who hasn’t revealed some unusual circumstance regarding your courtship. Please elaborate, so we can verify it’s normalcy.

Again…I don’t mean to offend anyone when I speak tongue-in-cheek. If I do, please tell me and I will apologize.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Philena:

So yes, I think that the Church should prepare someone for a life without a spouse.

I agree. Not all of us will end up married, and some of us will never be married at all – not just in our 30’s or 40’s, but 50’s and beyond. As someone upthread pointed out, single people are called to live in perfect chastity – the same standard of chastity as a priest – but we don’t have the graces given to priests by the sacrament of Ordination – so we need the support of the church more than ever.

**Crazy Internet Junkies Society
**Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

 

[T1pp]

My last post sounded alot more cynical than I had meant. I had just got home from work and am on my way and am typing quick. I didn’t know how to edit after I submitted it. Please disregard or at least forgive its tone. I’ll write more later. Have a good night everyone!

 

[1ke]

T1pp:

So far in our running tally of successfull chaste courtships, we have 2 Catholics-R-Us mail order husbands; a guy whose inner circle of friends consists of a bunch of monks, and you. Your the only one who hasn’t revealed some unusual circumstance regarding your courtship. Please elaborate, so we can verify it’s normalcy.

Again…I don’t mean to offend anyone when I speak tongue-in-cheek. If I do, please tell me and I will apologize.

Yes, I’m offended.

I really don’t get your big problem with chastity. I really don’t.

 

[wjp984]

One thing I have come to realize is that there are more people than we all think who still want to be chaste and be practicing Catholics in every way. I didn’t believe it until I met a few, some even around my age since there are a couple people I know who got married after they graduated college and were ready to start a marriage and family. I suppose it is just that which becomes the problem. If I am going to remain chaste it would mean waiting a few years before seriously thinking of meeting someone to marry since I will in no way be ready for a marriage if I can’t even support myself which I can’t now since I depend on ym parents for everything to get me through college. Perhaps in law school it will be the time to start considering finding someone to marry.

However, the point is, there are still several people out there that want to be chaste and you just have to find them. The problem is everyone thinks they are alone and have to conform with society. This truly is not the case. It is my opinion that there are numerous Catholic students and people in general whoif given the right influence and if associated with the right people, then orthodox Catholicism will grow.

Goodluck with your life and hopefulyl all works out for you. I trust that God will make things work out for me when the time is right, hopefully in the enxt few years as I enter law school and finish my schooling.

 

[T1pp]

1ke:

Yes, I’m offended.

I really don’t get your big problem with chastity. I really don’t.

I do apologize. I was wrong for putting the way I did. I have no problem with chastity. It is loneliness.

 

[T1pp]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to say that I regret the post where I refer to Trinidine and 1ke’s husbands as mail order husbands. That entire post was wrong and I am very sorry.

Mike

 

[montanaman]

T1pp:

I do apologize. I was wrong for putting the way I did. I have no problem with chastity. It is loneliness.

I totally understand that. When you’re trying to walk the walk, it’s tougher to find people (girls) to share that. There’s just fewer of them. And whatever they say about guys and their behavior, we also want intimacy. Sex is the ultimate form of intimacy (though I’d say a true meeting of minds is about the same). And as guys, we have desires PLUS the need for intimacy.

As for what the Church can do, well, I think it’s done plenty. It’s just up to us to take its advice. Pray, be thankful, be strong.

 

[T1pp]

I hope everyone here understands my concern here. Please be clear, this thread has nothing to do with lust and very little to do with sex. It is about loneliness. I can’t make it plainer than that. I came here for support and encouragement. Since this is probably the most conservative and orthodox Christian site on the web, I thought I that happy-ending stories regarding chastity would abound here. There have been a few, but very few. I’m sad because if they were going to be anywhere, they would have been here.

This question is for any of the apologists and any clergy that may be monitoring this thread. In the church’s view, is the discipline of chastity, so absolute that it is worth dying alone without a family? And if so, how do we reconcile the church’s celebration of the Catholic family with its indifference toward the chaste single Catholic? Especially, when we know, realistically, that it was not chastity that brought the majority of the Catholic families together.

I’m not asking the Church to change its teachings. I’m not saying it is OK to break chastity. I’m just asking it to explain this paradox.

P.S. Please know that I am NOT suggesting that Catholic families shouldn’t be celebrated. They are the living promulgators of our faith.