Chastity, American Culture, and dating in your 30's

[dulcissima]

I don’t think internet forums are the best place to hear about those kinds of success stories. I know if I had that kind of a marriage, I wouldn’t be spending much time on the internet.

Don’t you think in your heart of hearts that you know that you are not going to find a truly satisfying relationship if you turn your back on God? I mean, really, you are not going to fill your loneliness in any way that is real without Him, so sinning is not the path to take. Really, the only way to let go of that loneliness and stop being afraid is to totally surrender yourself to the divine will, to know with certainty that if God doesn’t want it for you, then you don’t want it either. It just seems like you want to take the wrong path to where you want to go, even though deep down you know that all that will happen is that you will end up lost.

 

[LittleDeb]

T1pp:

This question is for any of the apologists and any clergy that may be monitoring this thread. In the church’s view, is the discipline of chastity, so absolute that it is worth dying alone without a family? And if so, how do we reconcile the church’s celebration of the Catholic family with its indifference toward the chaste single Catholic? Especially, when we know, realistically, that it was not chastity that brought the majority of the Catholic families together.

Hi Mike,
I do get you here. My husband and I have a dear friend who is struggling with lonliness while single. He has been tempted in many of the same ways you describe. (In fact if you had said you were in your 20s I would be sure you were he!) He feared dying alone without a family.

What keeps him going is the knowledge that chastity is such an amazing gift. Lonliness is temporal. If he dies in the state of single chastity he will know ultimate joy with God. If he does marry, he knows he has an incredible future ahead of him. He knows I note the dates of our conversations. He says to keep reminding him that someday he will look back on these times as so worth going through to reach the wonderful point of marriage and family.

Chastity can be very difficult for some. Lonliness can be very painful. This too shall pass, one way or another. The celebration of the family is not at the expense of the single. It might seem so. Yes, I wish the Church had had better support for singles too. I might not have ended up where I was. But as it was said by another poster, it is ultimately my responsibilty regardless of circumstance.

 

[T1pp]

Thank you LittleDeb and dulcissima. Also to further explain where I’m coming from. When I am dating or otherwise around women, I’m not tempted by lust. The thing poeple have to understand is that women aren’t the only ones who feel pressure to “give in”. Almost all women in mydating pool have long since given up on chastity both inside and outside my church. When I hold fast, the relationship just doesn’t seem to go anywhere and it fizzles out. I almost feel like I need to give in so that a bonding can take place. And to top it off, I do not know a single person either inside or outside my church that is paying any heed to this teaching. I know this sounds extreme, but I really couldn’t care less about having sex; I just want someone to stay by my side. It makes you question that if chastity is the correct path to marriage and family, why doesn’t it work in practicality except for the blessed few?

I promise, I am NOT trying to be subversive here. It’s just that the issue is never addressed. As a church and as a society, we take on all kinds of sexual issues and address them maturely to help people through their struggles–that is every issue except this one. We can all resist internet porn, incest, adultery, promiscuity because we know in our heart that those things are wrong. Chastity is hard because we have so few examples of it working for those who practice it.

 

[m134e5]

T1pp:

How do we reconcile the teachings of our church with our cultural norms?

We don’t- sometimes we have to be countercultural.

How do we resist when the temptation to break chastity is not due, so much, to lust but due to the pain of loneliness?

Make friends- not girlfriends or boyfriends- just friends.

How do we feel about our peers who “broke the rules”, played the game, fell in love, got married, and now have a family?

If they did things in the right order, they didn’t break any rules. If they didn’t, don’t be critical of them- these are mistakes you cannot undo- that often people would do anything to be able to undo. Pray for those who are not chaste.

For me, chastity has become a commitment that I have to make anew each day. To think beyond that scares me to death, because I have to accept that I may end up alone because of it.

You do not have to be totally alone. Granted you may not live with anyone, but you will be able to share your life with others- even more people than you would if you were married, because your family would be your friends, instead of a wife and children.

My commitment has recently cost me a relationship and I even had a family member question my sexuality. Is it worth it?

For Heaven, yes, it is worth it. You know you are doing nothing wrong by being chaste- don’t let your family’s influence discourage you.

Or do we just play the game that seems to work for everyone else to get to the brass ring of marriage and hope we don’t die along the way before we make it to confession?

Definitely not!

How do you cope? Let’s support each other.

 

[1ke]

T1pp:

I hope everyone here understands my concern here. Please be clear, this thread has nothing to do with lust and very little to do with sex. It is about loneliness.

But you have the two linked together. It seems to me, at least, that you have it in your mind that chastity is your cause of loneliness. If only you didn’t have to be chaste, you would have a girlfriend and would not be lonely.

What I have tried to emphasize is that loneliness doesn’t just come when you live by yourself-- married people can be lonely too. And, having the wrong girlfriend can be just a lonely as having no girlfriend. So, it is not chastity that is a barrier to happiness. It’s your attitude about it that is a barrier to happiness.

I think that you need to spend some time in self examination and strive to find happiness in self. Don’t look to others to fill that gap in you-- they will disappoint you: spouse, friend, or family. I also think that if you cannot find joy your current state of life then you are not ready for marriage.

T1pp:

I can’t make it plainer than that. I came here for support and encouragement. Since this is probably the most conservative and orthodox Christian site on the web, I thought I that happy-ending stories regarding chastity would abound here. There have been a few, but very few. I’m sad because if they were going to be anywhere, they would have been here.

Not everyone comes on this site to share their successful marriage and courtship stories. There are many who never come to this forum, and some who come to this forum who only want to debate topics not talk about their personal lives. It’s a personal preference.

Now, if you want to read a whole bunch of success stories about faithful, committed catholics-- go over to Ave Maria and read away. Perhaps it has come down to the internet to help faithful catholics find each other. You came here for comfort and support-- why not there for a faithful spouse? If your particular pool is so polluted with non-practicing or lip-service Catholics-- then find a new pool.

T1pp:

This question is for any of the apologists and any clergy that may be monitoring this thread. In the church’s view, is the discipline of chastity, so absolute that it is worth dying alone without a family?

Yes, it is. And, please remember chastity is not merely a discipline, it’s a moral tenet of the Church.

T1pp:

And if so, how do we reconcile the church’s celebration of the Catholic family with its indifference toward the chaste single Catholic?

The Church is not indifferent to the chaste single life. Why do you think that it is? What is it that you want from the church???

T1pp:

Especially, when we know, realistically, that it was not chastity that brought the majority of the Catholic families together.

What does this have to do with anything? Sinners abound, yet the teaching remains the same. If you want a church that changes its teaching based on the cultural norms-- the Episcopal Church is right down the street. (I know, because I came from there to the Catholic Church).

T1pp:

I’m not asking the Church to change its teachings. I’m not saying it is OK to break chastity. I’m just asking it to explain this paradox.

There is no paradox, except in your own mind. I don’t even understand why you think it’s a paradox.

 

[BlindSheep]

T1pp:

Sorry…kind of new to online discussion forums. What’s a strawman?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

[T1pp]

BlindSheep:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Ahhh…makes sense. Thanks!

 

[Alterum]

T1pp:

Almost all women in mydating pool have long since given up on chastity both inside and outside my church. When I hold fast, the relationship just doesn’t seem to go anywhere and it fizzles out. I almost feel like I need to give in so that a bonding can take place. And to top it off, I do not know a single person either inside or outside my church that is paying any heed to this teaching.

T1pp, That doesn’t sound right! I think you need to find another “dating pool.” There are plenty of chaste women out there. I think you will be very grateful for the bonds that develop as a result of chaste love if you can find a woman who is as committed to chastity as you. Perhaps the problem thus far has been that you are unable to find such a woman? Surely they exist, but perhaps they aren’t readily visible. Why are you opposed to trying orthodox Catholic dating sites on-line? I see nothing inherently wrong with the idea. Such a site would provide a quick route to meeting those seemingly elusive women committed to chastity.

 

[T1pp]

Good morning everyone. I have a small confession to make. Although I have not misrepresented myself or my commitment to chastity, I am not quite as despondent as I have made myself out to be. I knew going into this that there would be very few stories of people who were able to arrive at marriage through chastity. It’s a fact of life that outside the Church our culture has universally rejected chastity and inside the church, it is largely ignored, especially with regards to single adults. Like all of you, I am committed to the principle of chastity; however, its practice is a decision that I have to make each day. And I’m sure that is the same for everyone here. My real reason for starting this thread was to start a discussion where we could reconcile what we say to be moral (as a church, not as individuals on this board) and what we do. I hate it when people outside the church call us hypocrites. But this is one area where we kind of are (again, not the individuals on this board, but the church taken as a whole). Let me explain.

Think of it this way. No individual anywhere can resist their culture. They can either choose to participate in it or choose to abstain from it. Heck…as a Church our only success in the fight against abortion has been to keep the debate alive; although, I have seen some hope lately, but that is another thread. When it comes to chastity, we have been completely and utterly defeated at the cultural level. Let me be clear, when I say we have been defeated, I’m not talking about sexual deviancy (promiscuity, prostitution, pornography, etc). I am only talking about the almost universal practice of intimacy during courtship. So how have we responded to this defeat? Let’s be honest. At the parish level, the issue of chastity among adult singles has been widely ignored—and for a very practical reason. If our priests took a strong and inflexible stand and preached strongly on chastity, it would have a dramatically negative impact on the population of our church. If forced to make a choice between chastity and pursing marriage and a family, most would choose to compromise with our culture and pursue relationships under the rules of our culture. They would simply leave the church, and many already have. What would be left would be a precious few who were blessed with the circumstances to achieve marriage chastely and those who chose not to compromise and are living a life of chaste singlehood. Do you believe that there would be enough couples who where able to find that chaste path to marriage to repopulate our church? I’m sorry, but I don’t. I’m afraid that unless God intervened dramatically (i.e. miraculously changing the will of the larger culture), we would be extinct within just a few generations.

Therefore, the question is: Has the church, by turning a blind eye to this issue, made a deal with the devil to ensure its survival? Is intimacy during courtship an absolute evil? And if so, why does it appear that it is feeding our church, while a strict adherence to chastity would seem to starve it?

I’m not trying be subversive here. I’m just trying to reconcile what we say to be moral with what we actually do and, sadly, count on for our survival.

 

[T1pp]

Alterum:

Why are you opposed to trying orthodox Catholic dating sites on-line? I see nothing inherently wrong with the idea. Such a site would provide a quick route to meeting those seemingly elusive women committed to chastity.

I am opposed to them because they are the dating equivalent of burying your master’s money the ground while you wait for his return. So you have one saved soul marrying another saved soul. Where is the evangelization in that? If your faith is strong, it is fine, in fact, preferable to marry a non-Catholic, even a non-Christian. Even if you can’t convert your spouse, you have the opportunity to show his/her family and his/her people that we’re not a bunch of closed society, clannish weirdoes. It makes the church more familiar and accessible to others. Come on Catholics! Shed your Catholic cocoons, stop worrying about simply the security of your soul and get out there and win souls!

 

[1ke]

T1pp:

I am opposed to them because they are the dating equivalent of burying your master’s money the ground while you wait for his return. So you have one saved soul marrying another saved soul. Where is the evangelization in that?

In the family you create together.

T1pp:

If your faith is strong, it is fine, in fact, preferable to marry a non-Catholic, even a non-Christian.

Ok, now I *know * you are not ready for marriage.

and the Scriptures state to be not unequally yoked. A house divided cannot stand.

T1pp:

Even if you can’t convert your spouse, you have the opportunity to show his/her family and his/her people that we’re not a bunch of closed society, clannish weirdoes.

Ah, here’s more to the heart of your issue. You are conflicted because you think being a chaste Catholic labels you a clannish weirdo.

The point of marriage is not to show people you are not a clannish weirdo.

T1pp:

It makes the church more familiar and accessible to others. Come on Catholics! Shed your Catholic cocoons, stop worrying about simply the security of your soul and get out there and win souls!

So, you complain about not being able to find someone equally committed to the faith and chastity, and yet you seem to have this problem because you are not looking for people equally committed to the faith and chastity. You’ve dug your own hole, buddy.

 

[1ke]

T1pp:

It’s a fact of life that outside the Church our culture has universally rejected chastity and inside the church, it is largely ignored, especially with regards to single adults.

My real reason for starting this thread was to start a discussion where we could reconcile what we say to be moral (as a church, not as individuals on this board) and what we do. I hate it when people outside the church call us hypocrites. But this is one area where we kind of are (again, not the individuals on this board, but the church taken as a whole).

I disagree that the church is hypocritical on this issue. I disagree that people who are committed to chastity are so rare as to be non-existent. I can tell you that almost my entire peer group (ie, the Catholics I know through my parish and pro-life activities) of Catholic friends were chaste before marriage.

T1pp:

Think of it this way. No individual anywhere can resist their culture. They can either choose to participate in it or choose to abstain from it.

I disagree with this.

T1pp:

Heck…as a Church our only success in the fight against abortion has been to keep the debate alive; although, I have seen some hope lately, but that is another thread.

I disagree with this assessment also.

T1pp:

When it comes to chastity, we have been completely and utterly defeated at the cultural level. Let me be clear, when I say we have been defeated, I’m not talking about sexual deviancy (promiscuity, prostitution, pornography, etc). I am only talking about the almost universal practice of intimacy during courtship.

I think you have a myopic view of things, perhaps in your particular experience things seem bleak. But, chaste courtship is not nearly so close to extinction as you make it out to be.

T1pp:

So how have we responded to this defeat? Let’s be honest. At the parish level, the issue of chastity among adult singles has been widely ignored—and for a very practical reason.

I disagree that it has been ignored, and I disagree that there is some “practical reason” for doing so.

T1pp:

If our priests took a strong and inflexible stand and preached strongly on chastity, it would have a dramatically negative impact on the population of our church.

Priests do preach on chastity, maybe you should find a new parish? Negative impact on our church by preaching chastity? Now you are in left field.

T1pp:

If forced to make a choice between chastity and pursing marriage and a family, most would choose to compromise with our culture and pursue relationships under the rules of our culture. They would simply leave the church, and many already have. What would be left would be a precious few who were blessed with the circumstances to achieve marriage chastely and those who chose not to compromise and are living a life of chaste singlehood. Do you believe that there would be enough couples who where able to find that chaste path to marriage to repopulate our church? I’m sorry, but I don’t. I’m afraid that unless God intervened dramatically (i.e. miraculously changing the will of the larger culture), we would be extinct within just a few generations.

You have some seriously bizarre notions. Have you considered counseling? No, I’m not joking. You have a very distorted view of sexuality and of the church, IMHO.

T1pp:

Therefore, the question is: Has the church, by turning a blind eye to this issue, made a deal with the devil to ensure its survival?

The Church has made no such compromise, has NOT turned a blind eye. You can only say so if you ignore the large and prominent body of teachings on the subject. Even the most recent encyclical written by Pope Benedict deals with eros and agape-- love.

T1pp:

Is intimacy during courtship an absolute evil?

It is grave matter.

T1pp:

And if so, why does it appear that it is feeding our church, while a strict adherence to chastity would seem to starve it?

Illicit sex is feeding our church while chastity starves it? Huh? You are crazy.

T1pp:

I’m not trying be subversive here. I’m just trying to reconcile what we say to be moral with what we actually do and, sadly, count on for our survival.

It is not what “we say” is moral-- morality is objective. Individual people can be sinful but that does not change the objective nature of the act.

Ok, I think I’m done with this thread, which only marginally made any sense to begin with.

 

[T1pp]

Oh my goodness…I wish I knew how to do multiple quotes. I don’t so I will have to do this off the cuff here. You say I have bizarre notions and alluded that I may be a sexual deviant. You want to talk about bizarre deviancy? Click the back button and check out the top sticky thread. I don’t struggle with any of that. I’m just starting to wonder if maybe, just maybe, that intimacy between committed couples might be the bond that pushes them toward marriage. What a sicko I am!

Also, does anyone here honestly believe that there are enough couples who completed their courtship with perfect chastity to repopulate the church? Anybody?

 

[LittleDeb]

T1pp:

Also, does anyone here honestly believe that there are enough couples who completed their courtship with perfect chastity to repopulate the church? Anybody?

Yes I do. The failings of our recent generations are temporary. All of the chastity over thousands of years far outweighs the failings of two generations.

 

[Alterum]

T1pp:

Also, does anyone here honestly believe that there are enough couples who completed their courtship with perfect chastity to repopulate the church? Anybody?

I do as well.

I also think the notion that you should marry a non-Christian if your faith is strong in order to “evangelize” is terribly misguided. The Church continues to discourage mixed marriages for good reason.

 

[Island_Oak]

T1pp:

… Also to further explain where I’m coming from. When I am dating or otherwise around women, I’m not tempted by lust…When I hold fast, the relationship just doesn’t seem to go anywhere and it fizzles out. I almost feel like I need to give in so that a bonding can take place…

Dear friend,

The problem you have is not with chastity, but with intimacy . If you can’t feel emotionally bonded to another individual unless you can physically express that bond, then something is drastically amiss in your relationship building skills. Even once you find a spouse, you will spend the majority of your life building relationships which have absolutely no sexual/romantic component whatsoever–family ties, professional/career colleagues, friends in your faith community, neighbors, parenting peers, friends who share your recreational interests, etc.–if these relationships are to be meaningful, you need to be able to open up and engage with people on an emotional and social level.

I’ve had very deep friendships–male and female–for decades. It is not sex that binds you to another, it is the intimacy and emotional availability you offer to people. Perhaps your commitment to chastity is a good thing at this time in your life because it will force you to work on and enhance your skills at being intimate, without being sexual. I think this is one vital aspect of the Church’s rightly placed emphasis on chastity before marriage.

 

[T1pp]

Do you all really believe that? Do I have to break out the statistics? You know what…find it yourself. It’s called Google. Like 1ke, I think I’m moving on. You know this is the most morally righteous online community on the web; it’s ironic that it’s also the only one I’ve ever come across that found the need to provide a support forum for its members struggling with “impurity.” I guess deviancy is ok, as long you feel guilty about it. (Way to uphold the stereotype, Catholics!) But daring to suggest that maybe taking chastity to the grave in lieu of the chance of having a family may be bit excessive, and willing to state publicly the truth about the courtship of most Catholic couples, and I’m told I have a bizarre notion of sexuality. Wow!

Before I leave, remember I do believe chastity is important, but I now believe that it is not worth dying alone over. Scripture does call us to a high standard of sexual morality, but not to the point that we live our entire lives alone.

 

[Alterum]

T1pp:

Before I leave, remember I do believe chastity is important, but I now believe that it is not worth dying alone over. Scripture does call us to a high standard of sexual morality, but not to the point that we live our entire lives alone.

T1pp, please reconsider. Many unchaste actions, alone or with others, are gravely sin. Premarital sex is certainly gravely sinful. I should think that one would much rather die alone than die in mortal sin. Why are you willing to commit what – depending on your disposition – can very well be a mortal sin? I don’t think loneliness is a very good reason; in fact I don’t think there are any good reasons.

Your other comments are inappropriate. Many Christian men (and women) struggle with impurity. I think it takes great courage to come here, admit one’s struggles, and seek help. This is hardly “irony.” The vast majority of CAF posters are trying to be faithful Catholics, and it seems only natural that a forum assisting with one of the most common and destructive sins be provided. I don’t think anyone here pretends to be perfect.

 

[1ke]

T1pp:

You say I have bizarre notions and alluded that I may be a sexual deviant. You want to talk about bizarre deviancy?

Ok, I could not let this stand without response for clarity sake.

I did not allude to sexual deviancy. I think you have some bizarre notions related to church teaching, relationships, sex, and intimacy-- not a desire for deviant behavior.

T1pp:

Click the back button and check out the top sticky thread. I don’t struggle with any of that.

That was not what I was referring to. I am only referring to your odd notions of forming relationships and how chastity is your enemy. You’ve never once answered what you actually want the church to do for you. WHAT is it you want from the church???

T1pp:

I’m just starting to wonder if maybe, just maybe, that intimacy between committed couples might be the bond that pushes them toward marriage. What a sicko I am!

No, it is not a sexual relationship that pushes couples to committment. Intimacy and sex are not the same thing. You are not a sicko-- but you are misguided in your ideas.

T1pp:

Also, does anyone here honestly believe that there are enough couples who completed their courtship with perfect chastity to repopulate the church? Anybody?

Yes, there are plenty of people dedicated to chastity. And chastity is not merely for those who are single. As I have pointed out, there is chastity within marriage also.

And, moreover, what exactly do you mean by “repopulate” the Church?

 

[wjp984]

T1pp:

Do you all really believe that? Do I have to break out the statistics? You know what…find it yourself. It’s called Google. Like 1ke, I think I’m moving on. You know this is the most morally righteous online community on the web; it’s ironic that it’s also the only one I’ve ever come across that found the need to provide a support forum for its members struggling with “impurity.” I guess deviancy is ok, as long you feel guilty about it. (Way to uphold the stereotype, Catholics!) But daring to suggest that maybe taking chastity to the grave in lieu of the chance of having a family may be bit excessive, and willing to state publicly the truth about the courtship of most Catholic couples, and I’m told I have a bizarre notion of sexuality. Wow!

Before I leave, remember I do believe chastity is important, but I now believe that it is not worth dying alone over. Scripture does call us to a high standard of sexual morality, but not to the point that we live our entire lives alone.

you are angering me and probably anyone else in the younger generation who believe contrary to you. I can assure you there are still a decent number of people who would prove you wrong including several from my generation currently in college. We all deal with the same issues and we all must stick together on them. What makes you think you’ll be happy giving up your chastity anyways? You talk about statistics and the one that comes to mind is the high divorce rates and family problems. For me, once I fully overcome my problems with my impurity, and I will, I would rather live my life chaste alone for a lifetime than end up in one of these failing marriages and problems with family like how mine was growing up. If you meet someone and they don’t want to be chaste like you, that is almost a sure sign that somewhere down the road they are likely not to be committed to you anymore. Is it really worth the temporary happiness if you can call it that for the price of being more miserable than you might ever be in your life to the point where it might never be the same? At least now you have your chastity and you will always have that as long as you keep it and that is more to show than most and in should provide some happiness or at least comfort. Oh and again, based one what I have now seen, I am fully confident and believe it is more than likely I will one day meet someone to marry that will be equally chaste as me aslong as I am willing to look or try. However, finishing school and going on to law school (probably in a differnt state than I am in now) is my current priorites before I can successully committ to finding someone to potentially marry. Currently it is just important to have several friends of both genders.