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[TriuneUnity]

How did you come to this conclusion?

You said/accepted/concluded that those in Heaven were offering the prayers for those on Earth to God. Is this correct?

I agreed.

It would now SEEM like you are recanting and saying we cannot be sure of this as is seen because we are not entirely sure what to make of Revelation.

No. What I am saying is the saints in heaven cannot hear our prayers. The imagery issue in Revelation is one of not making doctrinal statements based on literalistic renderings of said imagery.

Furthermore it would seem like you are basing this on the dispensationalists.

To that, as I Catholic, I must reply, that the dispensationalists came up with new doctrines that NOBODY had ever considered before 200 years ago. The Catholics have used this verse to substantiate our beliefs for well over 200 years.

The antiquity of an interpretation doesn’t establish it’s correct interpretation. It just means it’s been misinterpreted for a long period of time. I agree with your assessment of dispensationalist hermeneutics.

I hope it goes without saying I am not trying to attack you or your beliefs in any way

Same here. Honestly, I don’t go around knocking over statues in Catholics’ homes or shouting at them after Mass. I’m more likely to join them for the beer afterward LOL

but, I need to show you how this looks to me and possibly how it COULD be interpreted by some Catholics (always remember: If something CAN be interpreted one way, it WILL be interpreted that way). Also, I am genuinely interested in the logic of how God cannot share His incommunicable attributes. Even if I don’t agree with it, I would like to see it because I am not sure if I have ever heard that before. If I have, I surely do not remember it.

Sure. The attributes that we in some measure possess are attributes which are communicable. Attributes that God alone possesses are incommunicable. Eternality, for example.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hate to be like Reformed and edit, but I had an after thought.

I don’t know why, but that was hillarious LOL

 

[MDK]

Because we define prayer as an act of worship.

There’s a problem. I ask you to please not apply your faith system’s limited definition to what we do. Doing so results in a false understanding of Catholicism. A Lutheran definition of prayer doesn’t apply to us. In reality, it can be used for worship, but is simply a vehicle which can be used to talk. It’s like saying the telephone is only for 911, and then complaining about abuse of the 911 system if I call my family. We know that’s just not the case.

Is it possible for one to pray and it not be an act of worship?

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s definitely a matter of interpretation. Please tell me do you consider yours reasonable, good, correct, or infallible? This is so tied into authority, that it’s going further and ignoring it will cause the conversation to degrade.

I would say it’s reasonable and correct to say that if a command doesn’t exist in Scripture to do something by that very fact it’s not something we should do. Infallible…I would hope not.

Your reference to the saints as dead in Christ is definitely wrong. They are alive in Christ, as God is the God of the living and not the dead.

What I meant by dead in Christ here is used as Paul uses it. Those who are dead and in Christ. (as in “the dead in Christ shall rise…”)

Thank you. I disagree, but let’s not diverge on other paths yet. Can we please go back to the original question about when veneration (honoring) Mary turns into idolatry? An example here would be appreciated.

The Hail Mary would be a standard example I suppose (mainly the second part of the prayer). Maybe it’s overused much as an argument but just giving a basic example… Asking for her grace and blessing would be another.

 

[TriuneUnity]

There’s a problem. I ask you to please not apply your faith system’s limited definition to what we do. Doing so results in a false understanding of Catholicism. A Lutheran definition of prayer doesn’t apply to us. In reality, it can be used for worship, but is simply a vehicle which can be used to talk. It’s like saying the telephone is only for 911, and then complaining about abuse of the 911 system if I call my family. We know that’s just not the case.

But the reverse is also true. Being that I view the Lutheran definition of prayer as the correct definition why would I use what I believe to be an incorrect definition?

Is it possible for one to pray and it not be an act of worship?

Not in the religious context of prayer, no.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not in the religious context of prayer, no.

When someone prays for a healing, is that worship? I don’t see it worshipping as I see it more as asking for help.

I pray for the gifts of the holy spirit everyday, it’s not exactly worshipping God to ask for the gifts.

Worship is serving God, adoration, praise and thanks, in my opinion.

 

[TriuneUnity]

When someone prays for a healing, is that worship? I don’t see it worshipping as I see it more as asking for help.

I pray for the gifts of the holy spirit everyday, it’s not exactly worshipping God to ask for the gifts.

Worship is serving God, adoration, praise and thanks, in my opinion.

By the way, Prodigal. I wanted to apologize for the harsh way in which I spoke to you when we first interacted on Reformed’s “solas” thread. I over reacted and have since found you to be pleasant to talk to. Just wanted to say that. I misjudged you and that was sinful.

 

[MDK]

I would say it’s reasonable and correct to say that if a command doesn’t exist in Scripture to do something by that very fact it’s not something we should do. Infallible…I would hope not.

That’s where authoritative teaching and interpretation comes in, and it’s why it goes to the issue of authority. Almost anyone who can read can determine what’s easily and explicitly commanded. Okay, infallible is out for you. Is it the same for your faith system, the Lutheran church. Is Lutheran doctrine infallible?

What I meant by dead in Christ here is used as Paul uses it. Those who are dead and in Christ. (as in “the dead in Christ shall rise…”)

I use it the way it’s written in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Here is Matthew 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Who do you think Paul is referring to?

The Hail Mary would be a standard example I suppose (mainly the second part of the prayer). Maybe it’s overused much as an argument but just giving a basic example… Asking for her grace and blessing would be another.

What’s wrong with the Hail Mary? What’s wrong with asking Christ’s mother to pray for us, who are sinners? It’s a pretty bad example for anyone decrying some kind of problem.

Where are you talking about people asking for her grace, or blessing?

 

[MDK]

But the reverse is also true. Being that I view the Lutheran definition of prayer as the correct definition why would I use what I believe to be an incorrect definition?

There is truth, though, and it verifies one or neither of us, but not both. Interpreting truth is not simply a matter of personal preference. This is why it comes to authority and infallible teaching and interpretation. Is the Lutheran doctrine infallible?

Not in the religious context of prayer, no.

Yes, in the religious context of prayer it’s fine. Worshipful prayer is a specific case. I don’t behave to family as I do with God. Neither do I talk to family as I talk to God. In the same manner, I don’t pray to my heavenly family in the same way that I worshipfully pray to God.

 

[MDK]

By the way, Prodigal. I wanted to apologize for the harsh way in which I spoke to you when we first interacted on Reformed’s “solas” thread. I over reacted and have since found you to be pleasant to talk to. Just wanted to say that. I misjudged you and that was sinful.

That’s a classy and Christian thing to do. Very nice.

 

[TriuneUnity]

That’s where authoritative teaching and interpretation comes in, and it’s why it goes to the issue of authority. Almost anyone who can read can determine what’s easily and explicitly commanded. Okay, infallible is out for you. Is it the same for your faith system, the Lutheran church. Is Lutheran doctrine infallible?

No. That which it is derived from is.

I use it the way it’s written in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Here is Matthew 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Who do you think Paul is referring to?

Christians who have passed on into the next life.

What’s wrong with the Hail Mary? What’s wrong with asking Christ’s mother to pray for us, who are sinners? It’s a pretty bad example for anyone decrying some kind of problem.

Where are you talking about people asking for her grace, or blessing?

Because of the reasons specified earlier. It attributes to Mary that which Scripture doesn’t attribute to her (namely intercession). Of course Mary is just an example. It would apply equally to any other saint.

edit: the above is also not a condemnation of other Marian doctrines.

 

[MDK]

MDK;4095048:

That’s where authoritative teaching and interpretation comes in, and it’s why it goes to the issue of authority. Almost anyone who can read can determine what’s easily and explicitly commanded. Okay, infallible is out for you. Is it the same for your faith system, the Lutheran church. Is Lutheran doctrine infallible?

No. That which it is derived from is.

I don’t understand your reply. Are you saying that which is derived from Scripture is infallible even though one is not an infallible interpreter or teacher? How can a fallible interpreter come up with infallible doctrine? Unless one can interpret infallibly, how can one be assured of the correct interpretation of Scriptures?

Christians who have passed on into the next life.

Why just Christians? Are you putting Paul at variance with Matthew, Mark and Luke? I don’t think you want to have these guys at odds with each other.

Because of the reasons specified earlier. It attributes to Mary that which Scripture doesn’t attribute to her (namely intercession). Of course Mary is just an example. It would apply equally to any other saint.

Goes back now to authority and infallible interpretations.

edit: the above is also not a condemnation of other Marian doctrines.

Good, we’ve got enough on our plate for now.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

By the way, Prodigal. I wanted to apologize for the harsh way in which I spoke to you when we first interacted on Reformed’s “solas” thread. I over reacted and have since found you to be pleasant to talk to. Just wanted to say that. I misjudged you and that was sinful.

It’s not a problem. It just made me more determined to articulate my thoughts more clearly. It’s not easy to understand someone’s tone and thoughts when communicating in writing. (This is not a setup for a sola scriptura argument. ) Not only that, a lot of us can become “gun” shy with some of the crowd that visits these forums, from all sides.

I’d much more prefer to try and find what we have in common, as well as explain our differences in hopes of removing any misconceptions, than be in a position of defending my faith all the time. You strike me as one of those this might be possible with.

I appreciate your apology and I apologize for any “roughness” on my part.

 

[MDK]

It’s not a problem. It just made me more determined to articulate my thoughts more clearly. It’s not easy to understand someone’s tone and thoughts when communicating in writing. (This is not a setup for a sola scriptura argument. ) Not only that, a lot of us can become “gun” shy with some of the crowd that visits these forums, from all sides.

I’d much more prefer to try and find what we have in common, as well as explain our differences in hopes of removing any misconceptions, than be in a position of defending my faith all the time. You strike me as one of those this might be possible with.

I appreciate your apology and I apologize for any “roughness” on my part.

A class act. I think you should consider changing your username to the “CAF member formerly known as Prodigal”.

 

[tGette]

I have been more of a reader than a poster lately, but I wanted to say:

TriuneUnity and Prodigal, thanks be to God for your interactions! I love to see that Christian charity exists! It is encouraging!

It is good to confess to people aside from God! It is in forgiving that we are forgiven, right?

Thanks!
Peace!

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t understand your reply. Are you saying that which is derived from Scripture is infallible even though one is not an infallible interpreter or teacher? How can a fallible interpreter come up with infallible doctrine? Unless one can interpret infallibly, how can one be assured of the correct interpretation of Scriptures?

I’ll respond to this one in more detail later. Back and forth at work right now and this one will be more complex to answer. If you can bear with me.

Why just Christians? Are you putting Paul at variance with Matthew, Mark and Luke? I don’t think you want to have these guys at odds with each other.

Not the intention of doing this. If weren’t Christians then, they are now!

Good, we’ve got enough on our plate for now.

Yes. I just wanted to include that so it doesn’t go there as it tends to do lol

 

[TriuneUnity]

It is good to confess to people aside from God! It is in forgiving that we are forgiven, right?

Thanks!
Peace!

Yes; forgiving one another is a means of grace in and of itself.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s not a problem. It just made me more determined to articulate my thoughts more clearly. It’s not easy to understand someone’s tone and thoughts when communicating in writing. (This is not a setup for a sola scriptura argument. ) Not only that, a lot of us can become “gun” shy with some of the crowd that visits these forums, from all sides.

I’d much more prefer to try and find what we have in common, as well as explain our differences in hopes of removing any misconceptions, than be in a position of defending my faith all the time. You strike me as one of those this might be possible with.

I appreciate your apology and I apologize for any “roughness” on my part.

I appreciate your acceptance of my apology, brother. Despite our differences that may or may never be resolved in this life, I await in expectation the resolution of those differences when we are raised in glory.

 

[MDK]

I’ll respond to this one in more detail later. Back and forth at work right now and this one will be more complex to answer. If you can bear with me.

Not the intention of doing this. If weren’t Christians then, they are now!

Yes. I just wanted to include that so it doesn’t go there as it tends to do lol

Not a problem… I’m working on the finishing touches of installing a new dishwasher right now. My wife is Italian and so she tends to like the European style and look in things… we both like the quietness and cleaning ability. Getting back on topic sort of… Is a dishwasher a weak metaphor for forgiveness?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A class act. I think you should consider changing your username to the “CAF member formerly known as Prodigal”.

Why should I change to Canadian Air Force member?