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TriuneUnity
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Canada has an air force?Why should I change to Canadian Air Force member?
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MDK
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You’ve got a point! We like you as you are.Why should I change to Canadian Air Force member?
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RobHom
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SIA, SIA, SIA…is there a point to your acerbic one-liners? Is there a “value” to them…? Or is this your way of boosting your self-esteem? I’m not trying to be unfriendly…but of late it seems that you are just pushing the edge of “ugly” and “unfriendliness”.
Its not only in our minds…and its not all that matters to us.
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Reformed
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fbl9
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i surely hope you are joking…just got home from wathing a caf-18 be put through it’s paces…then the snowbirds took the sky pure skill… ok back to the regually scheduled program…
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TriuneUnity
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LOL…yes, entirely. I couldn’t pass the opportunity by.
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SIA
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I was replying to a very egotistical remark about how the Catholic church wins every time. Did you notice that or didn’t even you even bother to see what I was making a remark about?SIA, SIA, SIA…is there a point to your acerbic one-liners? Is there a “value” to them…? Or is this your way of boosting your self-esteem? I’m not trying to be unfriendly…but of late it seems that you are just pushing the edge of “ugly” and “unfriendliness”.
Its not only in our minds…and its not all that matters to us.
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fbl9
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yes i knew you were…but that is more something a canadian might say instead of an american…we are near the airbase so we try to take in the shows when they come up…you guys have been busy today gots lot of reading to do…LOL…yes, entirely. I couldn’t pass the opportunity by.
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TriuneUnity
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haha make sure you have waterproof rubber boots on.
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elts1956
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Hello Reformed. I have been reading the Early Church Fathers and checking out the Roman Catholic Church sites.
One site I found extremely interesting was one which told the reasons behind the rituals of the Sacrifice of the Mass, step by step. I had never been taught this in my many years of Catholic schooling. This knowledge has made the Mass even more meaningful for me.
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MDK
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It’s not that we didn’t see, but we don’t view her remark as an egotistical remark, as it is trust in Christ keeping His Word. I think you may be looking at her comment the same way as someone who trust in their own interpretations… If you had said that about your interpretations, though, it would have been egotistical because it would be that you trust in your own interpretations of God’s Word, something the Holy Spirit never instructed us to do, and also warned against. The Church that brought you the Bible was established and built by Christ. He protects the Church from teaching error in faith and morals, and will be with His Church until the end of time. We know you disagree, but I find it a stretch that you didn’t know what she meant, and still attributed it to her ego instead of her faith. I understand your possible anger… I’d be angry too if I opposed the Church and could never find a way to refute successfully what it officially teaches…, but then again, I would have figured out at some point that there was a good reason for that.
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MDK
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I still think there needs to be resolution of your interpretation of Paul with the other inspired authors Matthew, Mark and Luke.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Paul is speaking of the end times, where the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ’s Parousia. So therefore, Paul is speaking of those who have died physically, but will have their body resurrected. Their soul may already be in Heaven, but is certainly alive… as affirmed by Matthew22:32, Mark12:27 and Luke 20:38 which all say that God is the God of the living not the dead.
To expand the context a little, as Jesus was rebutting the Sadducees who said there was no resurrection, Mark 12:26-27: “26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.”
Are the spirits not alive in heaven and aware of what is going on? Let’s please go back to Luke, this time in Luke 15:7-10: “7 **I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. **8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.”
Before the Resurrection, the physical body may be dead, and the spirit is alive. The spirits in heaven are aware of what we do on earth. The living saints on earth and in heaven are quite simply one family in Christ.
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MDK
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Okay, but can you address the conflict between your interpretation of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 with Matthew, Mark and Luke as I have pointed out. Paul simply is discussing physical death, and does not address their spiritual life in Heaven. Matthew, Mark and Luke clearly address the spiritual life in Heaven. If God desires to teach that they’re dead to the world, then how would Moses and Elijah have been allowed to appear with Christ and speak with Him?
I don’t believe God has taught that they are dead to the world until the resurrection. Where has our Lord taught this?
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TriuneUnity
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Regardless of what Paul or the apostles and disciples state about the soul after death, they nowhere teach it is possible to communicate with them or to ask for their prayers and intercessions. You’re relying on silence to postulate a theory of saintly communication that isn’t prescribed at all by Christ or the apostles. It is possible that the saints hear our prayers? Yes. Are we told they hear our prayers and that we should offer our prayers to them for intercession? No.
What the Roman church offers for saintly veneration is simply foreign to the apostolic witness in Scripture. Where can one find Masses for the dead, for saints, holy days of obligation for the Assumption, etc?
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TriuneUnity
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Okay…let me get back to this one.
First, nothing is derived from Scripture per se. Scripture teaches propositional truths. These propositional truths are infallible because they were attended to by the Holy Spirit. Men, chosen by God, uttered these truths and they were eventually written down in the Sacred Writings. The truth of the doctrine being taught in Scripture, when repeated or stated in confessional or dogmatic form, is not dependent on any quality in the person(s) stating the doctrine. That is to take doctrinal witness to an almost Donatistic form. It is dependent solely on the Spirit of God who revealed them to us. They do not “come up” with it.
As far as a correct interpretation of the Scriptures; this lies within the Church itself. As for those individuals who misinterpret Scripture; Scripture is not open to individualistic interpretation. If an individual’s interpretation goes against the historic witness of doctrine taught by the Church and enumerated in the creeds (which serve as a regula fidei), that interpretation should clearly be abandoned.
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MDK
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Triune, Triune, Triune,…
I was hoping you didn’t dodge my question, but you pretty much did. Very disappointed in you. I would appreciate a simple answer, if you would kindly provide such. Does your silence tacitly imply that you see a problem with your interpretation of Paul as you provided?
Before moving on, can you please rectify Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 with Matthew, Mark and Luke as I have pointed out. Paul simply is discussing physical death, and does not address their spiritual life in Heaven. Matthew, Mark and Luke clearly address the spiritual life in Heaven. If God desires to teach that they’re dead to the world, then how would Moses and Elijah have been allowed to appear with Christ and speak with Him?
I don’t believe God has taught that they are dead to the world until the resurrection. Where has our Lord taught this?
We can deal with the rest, but let’s not leave too many things unresolved as we go along this path.
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TriuneUnity
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My interpretation of Paul is that those who are with Christ are physically dead, but are with Christ and so are spiritually alive. I didn’t offer anything different than that. I don’t see how that was a dodge.
And that is all I described as well. What verses are you addressing in those three gospels?
They spoke with Him. Besides, we don’t know exactly what happened there. In any event, they didn’t speak with the disciples nor intercede with them so it is not relevant to the topic.
Scripture never suggests that contact between the living and the dead is possible.
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MDK
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I know this can be a bit difficult, but this is a bad first paragraph, but looking better in the second. You pretty much provided possibilities and theory instead of hard responses. We can work with this, though.
Are you trying to say that Scripture is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient? The materially sufficient scriptures are infallible, but need an infallible interpreter to render them correctly so that they are not twisted, but are rendered with the meaning(s) intended.
My question had focused on authority and properly interpreting Scripture. What I was getting at is how do you know the interpretation of Scripture you use, is the same as the inspired author? **Is the Lutheran church an infallible interpreter of Scripture? ** **Furthermore, is Lutheran doctrine infallible? **
Of course anyone has the potential to faithfully repeat a dogma once defined. It’s the defining of doctrine and dogma that we’re discussing here.
We’re possibly getting somewhere here in the second paragraph. However, I have a concern over the definition of Church, and whose church…
Can every church provide correct interpretation?
If not, then which church can?
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