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mercygate said:
For us it is more nuanced.

Although a Priest or Bishop may be disobedient and a lunatic, a schismatic, or even a heretic, the sacramental grace of his Priesthood marks him indelibly, as baptism marks all of the faithful indelibly. He can no more be not-a-priest than we can be not-baptized. He may be inhibited from exercising his priesthood or even excommunicated but he remains a priest or a bishop: “Iuravit Dominus et non paenitebit: Tu es sacerdos in aeternam secundum ordinem Melchisidech.” (The Lord has sworn and will not repent: thou art a priest forever after the Order of Melchlizedek.) A Priest may wield his Apostolic gifts irresponsibly – look at all the splinter churches in the Anglican Communion that have “valid” but illicit Orders, having obtained them from vaganti bishops in the Apostolic lines – but if I am on the Titanic, he can receive my last Confession and pronounce absolution validly.

Succession for us is based on Our Lord’s fidelity to His Church, and not just on the fidelity of individual bishops to the Lord.
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We do not view the priesthood in that light, based on the teachings of Scripture. So, certainly, you have a different presupposition going into it.

The priest forever is Jesus 👍
 
Ordination would be the equivalent of a doctrinal degree. Graduation from a seminary.
 
TriuneUnity said:
We do not view the priesthood in that light, based on the teachings of Scripture. So, certainly, you have a different presupposition going into it.

The priest forever is Jesus 👍
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Yes. THE Priest is Jesus. There is only one Priest. But for us to live His life, His Priesthood is shared with His Church on earth. Only He can give us His Body and Blood. His Priesthood effects the perfect Sacrifice of the Mass, which we understand to be the self-same sacrifice of Calvary. The priests of the Church serve as alter Christus.

I got carried away with that Latin quote from Psalm 110/Hebrews. :yup: “Tu es Sacerdos” by Aloys Desmet makes me swoon!
 
mercygate said:
Yes. THE Priest is Jesus. There is only one Priest. But for us to live His life, His Priesthood is shared with His Church on earth. Only He can give us His Body and Blood. His Priesthood effects the perfect Sacrifice of the Mass, which we understand to be the self-same sacrifice of Calvary. The priests of the Church serve as alter Christus.

I got carried away with that Latin quote from Psalm 110/Hebrews. :yup: “Tu es Sacerdos” by Aloys Desmet makes me swoon!
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And where does Scripture state that Christ shares His priesthood with earthly priests? Not a hostile question. Just wondering what from the apostolic writings backs this up.
 
TriuneUnity said:
1 Corinthians 1:17 is not a denial by Paul of the purpose of Baptism. It is Paul stating that he left the baptizing of converts to others lest they be tempted to elevate Paul to superstar status and base their faith on him rather than Christ. Read the verse in context.

Strictly speaking the gospel is the message that Christ has lived, died, and rose again to reconcile sinners to an angry God. Baptism is an image of regeneration as the one being baptized has their sinful nature drowned by the waters and rises up to new life in Christ. The Holy Spirit applies the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to the one being baptized, through faith. It is the very thing it signifies.
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It sure seems you have an outward sign of an inward reality understanding. Do you see Romans 6 as baptism by the Spirit of God as conpared to being baptised by a pastor, priest, minster, etc?

Matthew 3:11

“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 16 - saved then baptized?

The Philippian Jailer Converted
25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer [6] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
 
Reformed said:
It sure seems you have an outward sign of an inward reality understanding. Do you see Romans 6 as baptism by the Spirit of God as conpared to being baptised by a pastor, priest, minster, etc?
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Water baptism is baptism by the Spirit of God. The minister performs the outward action, the Spirit performs the inward action.
Matthew 3:11
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“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
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John’s baptism is not the same as baptism in the name of the Triune God. His was not a baptism of Spirit.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Water baptism is baptism by the Spirit of God. The minister performs the outward action, the Spirit performs the inward action.
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Sure, but what comes first? 🙂 It seems the Spirit of God wound not be hindered for regenerating a sinner and would not need an ordain pastor or priest to sprinkle, dip, or dunk to complete the work of regeneration. As you may know, Calvinist believe regeneration preceeds faith. So, can anyone baptize a sinner, or does it need to be an ordained pastor or priest in your view to be saved? LOL…just having fun with you because you seem to be going down the Roman Road. .
 
Reformed said:
Sure, but what comes first? 🙂 It seems the Spirit of God wound not be hindered for regenerating a sinner apart from an ordain pastor or priest to sprinkle, dip, or dunk. As you may know, Calvinist believe regeneration preceeds faith. So, can anyone baptize a sinner, or does it need to be an ordained pastor or priest in your view to be saved? LOL…just having fun with you because you seem to be going down the Roman Road. .
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Regeneration comes before faith. Baptism is not the only way the Spirit regenerates; the Spirit also regenerates by the preaching of the word.

Anyone can baptize.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Regeneration comes before faith. Baptism is not the only way the Spirit regenerates; the Spirit also regenerates by the preaching of the word.

Anyone can baptize.
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LOL…do you think Obama has been born from above? So, The Spirit saves sinnes apart from being baptized by a priest or pastor?
 
Reformed said:
LOL…do you think Obama has been born from above? So, The Spirit saves sinnes apart from being baptized by a priest or pastor?
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I am supposed to question the spiritual state of politicians now? What in the world does that have to do with biblical exegesis of baptism?
 
TriuneUnity said:
I am supposed to question the spiritual state of politicians now? What in the world does that have to do with biblical exegesis of baptism?
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I’m watching the Democrate National Convention. As we all know, God is not a Republican. 🙂 I believe Obama and McCain were both baptized. But it seems Obama’s testimony of Jesus Christ seems to be genuine. Do you believe all who have been baptized with water (sprinkle, dip, or dunk) are regenerate?
 
Reformed said:
Sure, but what comes first? 🙂 It seems the Spirit of God wound not be hindered for regenerating a sinner and would not need an ordain pastor or priest to sprinkle, dip, or dunk to complete the work of regeneration. As you may know, Calvinist believe regeneration preceeds faith. So, can anyone baptize a sinner, or does it need to be an ordained pastor or priest in your view to be saved? LOL…just having fun with you because you seem to be going down the Roman Road. .
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any one can baptise in the case of immediate danger of death…in the case of a repent sinner who has never been baptised then spiritual regeration came first,…the Lutheruan confession of faith is a lot closer to the true church then you know, reformed.so if Triune answers seem catholic to you it is cause of the simmularities of theology
 
fbl9 said:
any one can baptise in the case of immediate danger of death…in the case of a repent sinner who has never been baptised then spiritual regeration came first,…the Lutheruan confession of faith is a lot closer to the true church then you know, reformed.so if Triune answers seem catholic to you it is cause of the simmularities of theology
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Please do not make me post writings of Luther and other Reformers on Roman Catholicism. My wife just bought me a copy of Luther’s cathechism at a garage sale.
 
Reformed said:
Please do not make me post writings of Luther and other Reformers on Roman Catholicism. My wife just bought me a copy of Luther’s cathechism at a garage sale.
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You could post some of Luther’s and other Reformers comments of a “derogatory” nature…and yet you would be doing little more than “cherry-picking” those comments… That you made that statement above is somewhat “indicative” of your actually lack of knowledge as to what Luther and some of the others said regarding Catholicism.

Perhaps reading some of the information at these sites before you get the “cart in front of the horse” might be in your best interest:

davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

presenttruthmag.com/archive/XXXII/32-5.htm

Tis’ far better to be “properly informed” than go off “half cocked”, hmmm? 😃
 
Reformed said:
I think the issue is referring to everything but the Holy Scriptures. I notice after being on this site for about a month, that Roman Catholics refer to Catholic sources and not necessarily Scripture, Although I have seen some Catholics quote Scripture. Even within Protestant commentaries, they are still just commentaries and not God-breathed. It really doesn’t matter what the intent was of the writers of Trent. I suspect it was close in perspective of burning the Reformers at the stake. Justin is safe and secure in the hands of Jesus where no one can snatch him from the hands of Jesus and the hands of the Father. The Council of Trent and the Catholic anathemas have no effect on Justin. Some on this thread have called Justin a false prophet and a heretic. I believe by the grace of God, the Father shined His light into Justin’s dark heart to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. God granted the new birth to Justin. In addition, God enabled Him to leave his childhood religion to the glory of God. He has been called out. That is a different perspective than calling Justin a false prophet or a heretic, isn’t it?
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You are using a lot of words to say very little, other than to try and “justify” your bashing of the Catholic Church… You asked if anathemas applied to Justin… I showed you where you apparently had little or no knowledge of what an “anathema” is.

Your perspective is your perspective, and that is equal to an opinion. A heretic is a heretic…and all the prose in the world won’t change a shoe into an airplane.
I believe Justin found his security in God alone, and not the Catholic Church.
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And that furthers proof of your misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10
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You seem to like to take a lot of scripture out of context… I hope you realize that it paints you as something of a very “disingenuous individual”…

Have you ever read the little “ditty” in the Bible where it admonishes against “private interpretations”?
 
TriuneUnity said:
The question for us as Lutherans is not “is there succession in the church.” The question is “what is the succession based on.” For us, it is based solely on apostolic teaching and remaining faithful to it. If an individual bishop changes doctrine, teaches falsely, etc, they are not in any succession from the early church even if two hundred popes laid hands on him. He has invalidated his ministry.
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How do reconcile this theory with Luther changing the theology? Faith “alone” was not an early doctrine. Nor was Sola Scriptura. So either the Church was wrong from the beginning or Luther is wrong.
 
Reformed said:
Sure, but what comes first? 🙂 It seems the Spirit of God wound not be hindered for regenerating a sinner and would not need an ordain pastor or priest to sprinkle, dip, or dunk to complete the work of regeneration. As you may know, Calvinist believe regeneration preceeds faith. So, can anyone baptize a sinner, or does it need to be an ordained pastor or priest in your view to be saved? LOL…just having fun with you because you seem to be going down the Roman Road. .
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For Catholics anyone can baptized a person. The Church prefers that a priest does it and recommends that the laity not do it.
 
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