J
josie_L
Guest
He acts in persona Christi, he is not another Christ, i.e., there is only one Christ (Christ works through the priest).
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J
josie_L
Guest
I still think one should report to the Church first because it’s important to let the Church know what’s going on.
p.s. What does FFS stand for?
S
Seamus_L
Guest
Unless we see a thorough house cleaning, that involves even bishops, it’s going to just keep getting harder to tell people that we’re the one true church established by Jesus Christ.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Although I know that this is a little different from outright being aware of it, I know people angry with their parents who admitted to suspecting something, but did nothing to investigate further. If they suspected something strange, many just couldn’t or wouldn’t believe that a priest could do anything wrong and immoral. They were in denial. In today’s culture, I believe that those who are sensitive to this issue would immediately go to police if their child said something. But in the past, I think it was rare for anyone to report these incidents whether it was done by a priest, a friend of the family or a relative. No one liked talking about it or admitting that it happened. It was an embarrassment, a shame…a scandal.
No one would have wanted to turn in their husband, father, sister, uncle, brother, best friend or a priest, minister, rabbi (all of whom were often considered a part of their family or extended family). It’s a lot easier to turn in perpetrators you don’t know or care about. When it’s someone you love or care about doing something this unthinkable, I think it was the tendency of people to do what it can without bringing in the police and then the media to air their family’s dirty laundry. It was a very wrong way of thinking because it further perpetuated abuse. For instance, I know a woman who was repeatedly raped by her father for years since she was a child. Her mother, also abused, knew about it, but did nothing to stop it. She eventually broke free of her family in college and was able to get her father prosecuted and convicted. Yet, they did nothing to the mother. Perhaps it was because she was a victim. I don’t know. Yet, at the same time, those who did go to the Church to report the abuse, trusted the Church to handle this appropriately, in some ways maybe even subconciously thinking that if they could trust the Church to handle this, they wouldn’t have to air their Church family’s dirty laundry to the public. When some were promised that these priests would not have contact with children again, they believed them.
Even today, when I took my mandated reporter training, I found during the class that there were many people still fairly ignorant about all of this and the motives of perpetrators. There still is a long way to go in getting rid of the stigmas to sexual abuse and to stop sexual abuse, itself. I do think the Church is trying to do the right thing now. I know my mandated reporter training for my diocese was excellent and I actually think everyone should take a course like this, whether or not they work with children.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Hasn’t the “house cleaning” already largely taken place via retirement and death? In the article above, they are talking about two cardinals who are both dead already. The bishops that are in place now are – by and large – not the ones who participated in these sorts of shennanigans.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
No, your interpretation is incorrect. I note your religion is ‘other’ so it appears you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a Catholic priest is.
M
manualman
Guest
- Touche!
- Except for the people actually having access to the information. That’s who we’d EXPECT to be MOST concerned about abuse. That they appear NOT to have been concerned about what was happening to kids is what is so horrifying. Were they abusers themselves? Were they simply horrible people who cared about nothing but image? Or were they incredibly naïve and really believed that with a bit of counseling said abuser could be rehabilitated? The problem isn’t that the information didn’t go public. The problem is that those with access to it lacked the moral framework and guts to actually confront the problem.
- It might work in America in 2014 to entrust accusations purely to the police without prior discernment or internal investigation. Might. But in other nations and other places, you might as well just shoot all the priests right now with that approach. In history, it’s the exception, not the norm that the government is just and trustworthy enough to place in charge of policing the church. The church is older and more stable than any national government on earth. If her leaders are faithful to the actual gospel, then they’d be the BEST people to deal with such problems that came along. The problem isn’t about addressing the issue in-house, it’s with FAILING to adequately address the issue. A well run diocese should be fully capable of investigation the legitimacy of an abuse claim and THEN turning the guilty over to the police for civil punishment. Sadly, there just were an awful lot of poorly led dioceses.
- Agreed. The priest capable of that is not merely a sinner who needs a few hugs and a couch to lay on while telling of his troubles. He’s a criminal who needs to be jailed to protect the innocent.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
So are you saying that a Catholic priest is not another Christ (alter Christus)?
What is the fundamental misunderstanding in saying that a Catholic priest is alter Christus and that his identity is nothing more than the identity of Christ?
Please explain why I am wrong in agreeing with with the infallible Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI who said on June 24, 2009: "As an alter Christus, the priest is profoundly united to the Word of the Father who, in becoming incarnate took the form of a servant, he became a servant (Phil 2: 5-11). "
And we read:
“Catholic teaching says that a priest is an alter Christus.” Father James M. Dunfee
osv.com/MyFaith/ChurchSeasonsandFeasts/Article/TabId/673/ArtMID/13718/ArticleID/8029/Priest-Alter-Christus.aspx
“As I reflect deeply on the character of Melchizedek and the thought of being an alter Christus, I cannot help but see that my life as a priest often mirrors that of Melchizedek.”
osv.com/Magazines/TheCatholicAnswer/Article/TabId/652/ArtMID/13618/ArticleID/4487/Inspirational-Old-Testament-Characters-for-Priests-Today.aspx
“Each priest, as alter Christus, radiates in his priestly life and ministry the new life of the Resurrection, the new creation, the kingdom of God and the mystery of love…His identity is nothing more than the identity of Christ…”
osv.com/MyFaith/Vocation/Article/TabId/691/ArtMID/13734/ArticleID/8602/Seminary-Formation.aspx
I
InSearchofGrace
Guest
Dr. F. Berlin, a John Hopkins psychiatrist and specialist on pedophilia, gave this interview before completion of the Church child sex abuse survey by John Jay College. Dr. Berlin explains the nature of said disorder, the misconceptions the public have about priest pedophilia and the obstacles the Church faced. At the end of the interview, he has wise words for the Church.
Excerpts
Q. How prevalent is sexual abuse of pre-adolescent children by priests?
A. My clinical impression … is that most of the involvement with youngsters by priests has been with those around the teenage years rather than the prepubescent.
[John Jay Report reached the same finding.]
…
Q. How does introducing the naive person into sexual activity start?
A. It usually evolves insidiously and can go on for some time. The common misperception about people who become sexually involved with children is that they are just pretending to care in order to get at them sexually. In most cases, it’s really quite different. The priest or whoever tends to have a genuine affection for the child and is interested in them in ways that would otherwise be quite positive. Then, sadly, because they feel sexually tempted and act on those temptations, what otherwise might have been a healthy and positive relationship becomes a damaging one. So it usually involves getting to know the child over a period of several weeks or even months, gradually progressing from a non-sexual to a sexual relationship and then, once it becomes sexualized, in some cases, it might go in for a number of years, before it ultimately comes to a conclusion.
…
Q. So pedophilia is almost impossible to cure.
A. There’s no cure for pedophilia. There is, however, effective and successful treatment. As with alcoholism, where there are many similarities, we talk about successful treatment but not cures. There’s something about your makeup that makes you vulnerable and you need to pay attention every day to make sure that you don’t, so to speak, fall off the wagon. If you think you’re cured, meaning that this vulnerability is somehow removed, that’s dangerous because you can let down your guard, stop maintaining vigilance, and gradually slip back into old habits.
**Years back, the Church, very sadly, was misled by mental health professionals. The Church was one of the earliest organizations to recognize that pedophilia existed and to send people for help. Unfortunately, back in the late '40s and '50s, and even the '60s, psychiatrists who didn’t understand what we do now thought that these people could be cured. The Church, after talking to the authorities of the day and believing that these people were going to be safe, put them back into the community. **The fault there was not the Church’s.
…
Q. Do you see a difference in how the Catholic Church deals with this problem now as compared to the early '80s when people began to learn that sexual abuse of minors existed in the Catholic Church?
A. I have met a number of extremely conscientious and dedicated priests who are absolutely determined to do everything they can to deal with this problem as effectively as possible. I personally believe there has been too much Church-bashing. The Church has made mistakes – we’ve all made mistakes – and sadly there may still be mistakes that individuals will make as time goes along. The notion that somehow priests in general don’t care about the well-being of children, or that they’re insensitive to their parishioners, or that they would turn a blind eye and allow children somehow to be harmed – that’s not true. From what I’ve seen of all the hard work, there’s a tremendous dedication to doing everything possible to minimize these kinds of problems and, to the extent that they can be eliminated to try to do that as well.
The last three questions of the interview below:
Q. Are there any kinds of rules to guide behavior?
A. Efforts are being made to teach priests. I saw an excellent film made recently to educate bishops and priests about boundary issues, not only with children but also with adults, for example, how to show concern for a woman who’s grieving over the death of her husband in a way that will not be misinterpreted. These are tricky issues. They require education. They don’t necessarily come to us through intuition.
Q. Is there anything else on which you would like to comment?
A. Yes. The Church needs to recognize that the first priority must be the parishioners, to let parishioners know that there is a genuine sense of concern. Lawyers need to help the Church accomplish this without creating a “we-vs.-them” mentality. In other organizations, if somebody’s suing, it is “we-vs. -them.” But the Church is in a unique position where it should never be “we-vs. -them.” The people whom I’ve met in the Church want the first response to be that of ministry, to be what the Church is supposed to be. The question is how to do this in modem American society where the legal system is very adversarial.
Q. Any other comments?
A. For some, it’s easy to write off human beings as disposable commodities, but the Church can’t. It needs, first of all, to protect society, when it comes to pedophilla. There is no doubt about that. It also needs to be true to its belief in the possibility of salvaging the human life that’s gone astray. Forgiveness and atonement – those shouldn’t just be words. Though these concerns must never interfere with safeguarding parishioners, at the same time, the Church cannot be true to itself, if it treats the pedophile priest as though he is less than human. The Church cannot give up its very essence in dealing with this difficult problem. In the understandable anger and outrage that people feel, the reaction can be to treat these people like disposable items. But that’s not the way the Church can function and still be Church.
,
Excerpts
Q. How prevalent is sexual abuse of pre-adolescent children by priests?
A. My clinical impression … is that most of the involvement with youngsters by priests has been with those around the teenage years rather than the prepubescent.
[John Jay Report reached the same finding.]
…
Q. How does introducing the naive person into sexual activity start?
A. It usually evolves insidiously and can go on for some time. The common misperception about people who become sexually involved with children is that they are just pretending to care in order to get at them sexually. In most cases, it’s really quite different. The priest or whoever tends to have a genuine affection for the child and is interested in them in ways that would otherwise be quite positive. Then, sadly, because they feel sexually tempted and act on those temptations, what otherwise might have been a healthy and positive relationship becomes a damaging one. So it usually involves getting to know the child over a period of several weeks or even months, gradually progressing from a non-sexual to a sexual relationship and then, once it becomes sexualized, in some cases, it might go in for a number of years, before it ultimately comes to a conclusion.
…
Q. So pedophilia is almost impossible to cure.
A. There’s no cure for pedophilia. There is, however, effective and successful treatment. As with alcoholism, where there are many similarities, we talk about successful treatment but not cures. There’s something about your makeup that makes you vulnerable and you need to pay attention every day to make sure that you don’t, so to speak, fall off the wagon. If you think you’re cured, meaning that this vulnerability is somehow removed, that’s dangerous because you can let down your guard, stop maintaining vigilance, and gradually slip back into old habits.
**Years back, the Church, very sadly, was misled by mental health professionals. The Church was one of the earliest organizations to recognize that pedophilia existed and to send people for help. Unfortunately, back in the late '40s and '50s, and even the '60s, psychiatrists who didn’t understand what we do now thought that these people could be cured. The Church, after talking to the authorities of the day and believing that these people were going to be safe, put them back into the community. **The fault there was not the Church’s.
…
Q. Do you see a difference in how the Catholic Church deals with this problem now as compared to the early '80s when people began to learn that sexual abuse of minors existed in the Catholic Church?
A. I have met a number of extremely conscientious and dedicated priests who are absolutely determined to do everything they can to deal with this problem as effectively as possible. I personally believe there has been too much Church-bashing. The Church has made mistakes – we’ve all made mistakes – and sadly there may still be mistakes that individuals will make as time goes along. The notion that somehow priests in general don’t care about the well-being of children, or that they’re insensitive to their parishioners, or that they would turn a blind eye and allow children somehow to be harmed – that’s not true. From what I’ve seen of all the hard work, there’s a tremendous dedication to doing everything possible to minimize these kinds of problems and, to the extent that they can be eliminated to try to do that as well.
The last three questions of the interview below:
Q. Are there any kinds of rules to guide behavior?
A. Efforts are being made to teach priests. I saw an excellent film made recently to educate bishops and priests about boundary issues, not only with children but also with adults, for example, how to show concern for a woman who’s grieving over the death of her husband in a way that will not be misinterpreted. These are tricky issues. They require education. They don’t necessarily come to us through intuition.
Q. Is there anything else on which you would like to comment?
A. Yes. The Church needs to recognize that the first priority must be the parishioners, to let parishioners know that there is a genuine sense of concern. Lawyers need to help the Church accomplish this without creating a “we-vs.-them” mentality. In other organizations, if somebody’s suing, it is “we-vs. -them.” But the Church is in a unique position where it should never be “we-vs. -them.” The people whom I’ve met in the Church want the first response to be that of ministry, to be what the Church is supposed to be. The question is how to do this in modem American society where the legal system is very adversarial.
Q. Any other comments?
A. For some, it’s easy to write off human beings as disposable commodities, but the Church can’t. It needs, first of all, to protect society, when it comes to pedophilla. There is no doubt about that. It also needs to be true to its belief in the possibility of salvaging the human life that’s gone astray. Forgiveness and atonement – those shouldn’t just be words. Though these concerns must never interfere with safeguarding parishioners, at the same time, the Church cannot be true to itself, if it treats the pedophile priest as though he is less than human. The Church cannot give up its very essence in dealing with this difficult problem. In the understandable anger and outrage that people feel, the reaction can be to treat these people like disposable items. But that’s not the way the Church can function and still be Church.
,
M
mikekle
Guest
Well, maybe the church has been dealing with this the right way all these years, as in not getting police involved, Maybe its best (in this case) if the church just handles it from within, and has no need for law enforcement involvement.
I am starting to think this the entire reason why nearly all priests today are thought of as child molesters, law enforcement tends to blow things way out of proportion, just wonder if their involvement did not do more damage.
I am starting to think this the entire reason why nearly all priests today are thought of as child molesters, law enforcement tends to blow things way out of proportion, just wonder if their involvement did not do more damage.
L
Lochias
Guest
A news article in one of the local papers today states that almost 1,000 teachers during the last decade had been involved with sexual acts involving underage students.
Don’t see the outcry there or anywhere, because people will grind their axes no matter what anyone else says to them.
I love how there are some folks here shouting to the rooftops that “the police need to be involved!” as if 1. They somehow haven’t, and 2. That will somehow magically cure everything, when secular professionals over the past decade have literally been abusing kids by the thousands and nothing seems to be slowing them down.
Major, major double-standard. We don’t treat priests like gods; why should the secular world expect perfection of them?
Don’t see the outcry there or anywhere, because people will grind their axes no matter what anyone else says to them.
I love how there are some folks here shouting to the rooftops that “the police need to be involved!” as if 1. They somehow haven’t, and 2. That will somehow magically cure everything, when secular professionals over the past decade have literally been abusing kids by the thousands and nothing seems to be slowing them down.
Major, major double-standard. We don’t treat priests like gods; why should the secular world expect perfection of them?
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Because according to the previous Pope, the priest is another Christ and is profoundly united to the Word of the Father.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I see the outcry all the time. Maybe because I don’t care for most teachers to begin with.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I would have to agree. Whenever I see anything about a teacher molesting or raping a child/teen, I see a lot of outcry, especially in the local communities.
M
mikekle
Guest
Yes, but usually ONLY when it is a male teacher and a female student, when it is a female teacher being involved with a male student, in many peoples opinion, this is not as bad for some reason.
Plus, this seems to be a fairly new thing, I cant ever remember hearing about a teacher having sex with a student before the late 1990s. nowadays, its almost common to hear this kind of news.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Yes, that is true as well. when it is a female adult with a male teen there can be mixed opinions. You’ll hear men call up on talk shows saying that they wished a good looking teacher would have seduced them. Most of the time, women are outraged by it and they make a lot of noise to make it stop on the local airwaves. Although I once heard a mother call up on a radio program I have to listen to whenever I travel to and from Manhattan for traffic news. She had a now grown son who was seduced by a young teacher and she thought it was the best thing that ever happened to him as he gained confidence and popularity.
When a female adult (who is attractive) is with an attractive female teen, you also hear men make jokes about how “hot” that is. A male adult with a female teen usually brings about a lot of outrage. For instance, at my former Catholic high school, the science teacher had an “affair” with a teenage female student and there was a HUGE outcry about it. But the outcry was a mix. People were blaming the teen, saying she must have seduced him, putting the blame entirely on her. Other people were blaming the teacher for taking advantage of his position with a minor and then also doing it when his own wife was also a teacher at the school. Men made jokes, again, about how lucky that old guy was to have a nice young chick. A complete double standard.
Now, when it’s a male adult on a male teen, whether a lay person or a man of the cloth, people are always disgusted and outraged about it and it’s almost always outrage towards the adults in the situation. You rarely get the jokes about the “lucky bastard”. I think part of it is because the men who once thought it was “hot” and “lucky” for an adult to be with an attractive female minor now think about something like that happening to them as a teen and picture how much they wouldn’t want some “old” man raping them or taking advantage of them if they were in a vulnerable emotional state. Interestingly, I have also found, even with the sex abuse scandal in my diocese, although there were teen girls raped and abused by a couple of the priests in our diocese, people weren’t as outraged about it. It’s much more “distasteful” and “disgusting” when it’s homosexual rape, even though ALL rape, in my opinion, should be equally as disgusting and outrageous.
Now, when it comes to adults raping and abusing children (not teens), there is always outrage and outcry, no matter the gender and no matter the form of sex. You don’t hear the jokes, the men thinking that it’s hot for a male adult on a female child, etc. That’s what I was thinking when I made my previous statement.
I think it’s because talking about sexual abuse is not as taboo as it once was. People are realizing that if you keep your mouth shut, it perpetuates abuse.
L
Lochias
Guest
That has already been addressed. If you choose to ignore the answer, then it’s your own, purposeful ignorance you’re choosing to wallow in.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Sorry. But I don’t see why it is wallowing in ignorance to follow the words of the Holy Father and the teachings of the Catholic Church.That has already been addressed. If you choose to ignore the answer, then it’s your own, purposeful ignorance you’re choosing to wallow in.
“Catholic teaching says that a priest is an alter Christus.” Father James M. Dunfee
The identity of a Catholic priest “is nothing more than the identity of Christ…”
L
Lochias
Guest
As I said, if you choose to ignore the context in which that is applied (and which has been explained to you), you are free to enjoy your self-inflicted ignorance.
No point in fighting a losing battle.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
No. I am not ignoring the context. The simple fact is that people hold a priest to a higher standard since the Catholic Church teaches that the priest is another Christ. And Christ, being divine, is the most perfect man who ever lived.
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