Chicago Catholics Outraged by Hillary Speech

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Tom317 said:
It could be as simple as Cardinal George is not as orthodox as we may have thought.
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What a bizzare statement…

There is no evidence that the Cardinal is not in unity with the rest of the universal church.

It’s his pastoral judgment alone how to deal with a situation like this.

You can disagree with his judgment…but as we often point out…the ‘spirit of governance’ is given to him and him alone at ordination as a bishop…not to the masses on a message board.
 
I am a long-time supporter and donor of Mercy Home, and I personally find this unbelievable. I think it is quite insulting to have Hillary Clinton speak at a fundraiser for the Home. I plan to let them know my feelings.
 
frommi said:
What a bizzare statement…

There is no evidence that the Cardinal is not in unity with the rest of the universal church.

It’s his pastoral judgment alone how to deal with a situation like this.

You can disagree with his judgment…but as we often point out…the ‘spirit of governance’ is given to him and him alone at ordination as a bishop…not to the masses on a message board.
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In no way am I insulting the Cardinal. I am saying he is not the enforcer or the corrector many thought he would be and that the previously held belief that he was uber-orthodox has proved untrue. He certainly holds to the faith.
 
chicago said:
I will agree with you there. It is clear that “Francis the Corrector” changed his ways from early on after being shouted down. Though he still clearly corrects at times (in ways that some might notice and others will not), he’s taken a different approach from his first year or two here which has left the more liberal elements somewhat contented. That said, I don’t think that “cracking down” would have effectively worked with them, anyway. Cardinal Bernardin is said to have tried that and been stood up to, treatened with walkouts by his pastors.

I do believe, however, that at the adminstrative level, he has made many changes to install more of his own people who will act in accord, generally, with his desires. So he is doing what he can where he can, but he isn’t superman either and can’t do it all.
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I have no idea about this diocese or any other in terms of how bishops handle things, but I was wondering whether you have ever read this piece and if you think it is on target?:
http://http://www.wf-f.org/JFH-ConservativeBishops.html
http://www.wf-f.org/JFH-ConservativeBishops.html
 
Tom317 said:
Well, considering things at the parish level have not changed, how could it hurt?
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An archbishop of such a large see can hardly be 1000 places at once correcting every little perceived error.

And the thing that all of the ‘orthodox drum beaters’ fail to see is that it is QUITE possible that Cardinal George does not view the situation at the parish level to be as dire as many want him to.

The orthodox response to this should be to trust in the governance of the bishop…but when the orthodox don’t get what they want…they just whine more loudly.
 
frommi said:
An archbishop of such a large see can hardly be 1000 places at once correcting every little perceived error.

And the thing that all of the ‘orthodox drum beaters’ fail to see is that it is QUITE possible that Cardinal George does not view the situation at the parish level to be as dire as many want him to.

The orthodox response to this should be to trust in the governance of the bishop…but when the orthodox don’t get what they want…they just whine more loudly.
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Oh please stop. I know a great deal about the Chicago Archdiocese and there are so many parishes in deep dissent that it is hard to put a number on it. The good Cardinal has not changed that, and the reason might simply be because the dissent is so pervasive that he simply doesn’t know what to do about it. I love Cardinal George and he has done personal things for me that I will always be grateful for, yet that does not mean I will ignore the plight of many parishes under his control. Thousands of parishoners have left and gone to neighboring dioceses just because they can’t take the garbage anymore…so please do no belittle people you know nothing about.
 
Tom317 said:
Oh please stop. I know a great deal about the Chicago Archdiocese and there are so many parishes in deep dissent that it is hard to put a number on it. The good Cardinal has not changed that, and the reason might simply be because the dissent is so pervasive that he simply doesn’t know what to do about it. I love Cardinal George and he has done personal things for me that I will always be grateful for, yet that does not mean I will ignore the plight of many parishes under his control. Thousands of parishoners have left and gone to neighboring dioceses just because they can’t take the garbage anymore…so please do no belittle people you know nothing about.
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Again…no one told anyone to leave a parish in Chicago over perceived dissent…and I can think of quite a few times that the Cardinal (or an auxillary) has stepped in to make sure things don’t get out of hand in a parish.

The ‘dissent’ you speak of is not as pervasive as you make it out to be. It’s just that parishes don’t fit with your worldview of a church that is closed off to the realities of the neighborhoods it inhabits.
 
frommi said:
Again…no one told anyone to leave a parish in Chicago over perceived dissent…and I can think of quite a few times that the Cardinal (or an auxillary) has stepped in to make sure things don’t get out of hand in a parish.

The ‘dissent’ you speak of is not as pervasive as you make it out to be. It’s just that parishes don’t fit with your worldview of a church that is closed off to the realities of the neighborhoods it inhabits.
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You are just flat wrong! However, I am not going to wander into an off topic issue, think as you will, but you could not be more wrong and if given the ooportunity I could easily prove my points.

Back to the originally posted topic.
 
Tom317 said:
You are just flat wrong! However, I am not going to wander into an off topic issue, think as you will, but you could not be more wrong and if given the ooportunity I could easily prove my points.

Back to the originally posted topic.
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This is part of the original topic…since people are saying the Cardinal shirked his responsibilities by not dressing Hillary in sack cloth and marching her down State street while bells tolled.
 
frommi said:
This is part of the original topic…since people are saying the Cardinal shirked his responsibilities by not dressing Hillary in sack cloth and marching her down State street while bells tolled.
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No, wandering into a talk about the problems with the Chicago Archdiocese is not what this thread is about. I have no intention on going further with you on this.
 
Tom317 said:
No, wandering into a talk about the problems with the Chicago Archdiocese is not what this thread is about. I have no intention on going further with you on this.
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So, is that a nice way of saying you have no evidence to back up your argument?

Your statement was “Perhaps the cardinal isn’t as orthodox as we thought he was” (paraphrase).

You put that out there and now you’re going to run away from those who disagree with that statement?

Kind of unfair isn’t it?
 
frommi said:
So, is that a nice way of saying you have no evidence to back up your argument?

Your statement was “Perhaps the cardinal isn’t as orthodox as we thought he was” (paraphrase).

You put that out there and now you’re going to run away from those who disagree with that statement?

Kind of unfair isn’t it?
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Not unfair at all. I haven’t “run” anywhere, still right here. 🙂
 
frommi said:
And still unwilling to back up your statements about the orthodoxy of the cardinal.
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I am still not willing to discuss “Chicago’s” problems on a thread that is intended for a talk about Hillary and her speaking in Chicago.

I am done responding to this silliness, if you would like to discuss Hillary, I will be happy to join. 🙂
 
Tom317 said:
…and that the previously held belief that he was uber-orthodox has proved untrue. He certainly holds to the faith.
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I think he might still be thought of as uber-orthodox (though perhaps not uber conservative and hardline in tactics).
 
Tom317 said:
Oh please stop. I know a great deal about the Chicago Archdiocese and there are so many parishes in deep dissent that it is hard to put a number on it. The good Cardinal has not changed that, and the reason might simply be because the dissent is so pervasive that he simply doesn’t know what to do about it. I love Cardinal George and he has done personal things for me that I will always be grateful for, yet that does not mean I will ignore the plight of many parishes under his control. Thousands of parishoners have left and gone to neighboring dioceses just because they can’t take the garbage anymore…so please do no belittle people you know nothing about.
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My observation has been that while he has tried to extol and cajole, he understands that he can’t practically enforce. So what he has done is simply to put better people in some positions when he is able in order that things might slowly but surely improve in places. In this regard, there has been change for the better over time, though certainly things aren’t ideal (not will they ever be or have been under anyone else).
 
Tom317 said:
No, wandering into a talk about the problems with the Chicago Archdiocese is not what this thread is about. I have no intention on going further with you on this.
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The thread is (and has long been) about how Cardinal George deals with perceived problems in the archdiocese and (more generally) whether that is a better or worse approach for bishops to take in governance. The Hilary thing is merely one example and touchpoint for discussion. It only gets particular play because there are hardliners who make it a hobby to whine about every such instance and use such as an example of how the bishop isn’t “doing his job”. Other examples may abound which could certainly be discussed without naming and names or parishes or what have you to further the general dialougue as to how a bishop might best address difficulties which face his diocese. Indeed, such would be a worthwhile conversataion that might produce some genuine light rather than the simplistic moaning which typically accompanies so many threads such as this whereby it almost always get reduced to nothing more than finger pointing as to how a bishop failed to rake some politician over the grill publically.
 
Tom317 said:
I am still not willing to discuss “Chicago’s” problems on a thread that is intended for a talk about Hillary and her speaking in Chicago.
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Well, then, let’s start another to discuss just that if you must, or are you only interested in “bashing Hilary and the bishop”?
I am done responding to this silliness, if you would like to discuss Hillary, I will be happy to join. 🙂
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