Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

[Corki]

No need to block sir. I have asked to have my account deleted because I’m done with people like you. If an article written by a Catholic bishop can inflame you so much than I would likely say being so judgemental will not earn you a place in Heaven.

I know you put great store on what this retired auxillary Bishop has written. However, he would not be the first clergyman to try to push an agenda that went against Church teaching. Another retired auxillary has come out in support of same-sex marriage and a bishop in Australia was removed due, in part, to his endorsement of women priests. Dissent happens, unfortunately and thanks to the internet, we all hear about it nearly instantly. Being a bishop does not mean that a man is infallible. His writing is interesting theological musing but has no authoritative weight. It is getting a lot of press precisely because it is out of the mainstream. When (if) the Pope convenes a study, then it may be time to speculate but until then, nothing really to discuss.

 

[Mickey]

There was a full page article in today’s New York Times about 3 female Roman Catholic Bishops, who insist they are legitimate.

:bigyikes:

 

[Michelle9]

I know you put great store on what this retired auxillary Bishop has written. However, he would not be the first clergyman to try to push an agenda that went against Church teaching. Another retired auxillary has come out in support of same-sex marriage and a bishop in Australia was removed due, in part, to his endorsement of women priests. Dissent happens, unfortunately and thanks to the internet, we all hear about it nearly instantly. Being a bishop does not mean that a man is infallible. His writing is interesting theological musing but has no authoritative weight. It is getting a lot of press precisely because it is out of the mainstream. When (if) the Pope convenes a study, then it may be time to speculate but until then, nothing really to discuss.

No you misunderstand me. I am not overwhelmed by bishops or priests and I can understand the difference between what is not allowed by the Church and the issue that this Bishop is bringing up.

It’s being discussed in the media a great deal that’s why I think it is interesting and personally I would like to see it happen but can live with the situation if it doesn’t.

 

[Corki]

No you misunderstand me. I am not overwhelmed by bishops or priests and I can understand the difference between what is not allowed by the Church and the issue that this Bishop is bringing up.

It’s being discussed in the media a great deal that’s why I think it is interesting and personally I would like to see it happen but can live with the situation if it doesn’t.

As long as you realize that the **very reason **it’s being discussed a “great deal” is that it’s a “man bites dog” story. If 100 bishops wrote letters affirming the Church’s position, noone in the media would waste a pixel reporting it.

 

[ValPal]

It’s being discussed in the media a great deal that’s why I think it is interesting and personally I would like to see it happen but can live with the situation if it doesn’t.

The sources cited are well known to be very liberal sources. Articles regarding religion in liberal media tend to be their for a purpose (and typically not a good one), and also typically miss elements essential to the article. FWIW, I actually have some VERY close friends who work for one of the cited sources.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Having read through this thread, I smell a big fat rat! There was a full page article in today’s New York Times about 3 female Roman Catholic Bishops, who insist they are legitimate. After almost a full page of liberal Catholic Blather, there was only a casual reference to the fact that any woman who tries to be ordained a priest is automatically excommunicated as is the Bishop and any othe Catholic Clergy associated with that ordination.
This is typical of the secularist mass media stiring up the people with mis-information and outright lies!

A similar odour seems to be emanating from several locations . According to the linked article the OP provided, Lynne Mapes-Riordan ,the Chicago Tribune claims,

“could be among the first in centuries to be ordained a deacon in Catholic Church” .

The article goes on to say that ,

“As she waits for permission to discern what she perceives as a call to the diaconate, she is working on a master’s in liturgy at Catholic Theological Union.”

There is a most interesting web page founded by Brian L Gatza, who was also working on his Master’s in the Masters degree program at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, Illinois. The webpage’s title. . .? . . .: CTU Review , A Study of Dissension Within the Catholic Church , Focusing on Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, Illinois.
(It would appear he also noticed the odour - http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/ratz4me/Smileys/Rat smileys/smilechange.gif)Here’s the link followed by several excerpts :

ctureview.us/

“Catholic Theological Union (Chicago) is a Theologically Progressive Graduate School of Theology and Ministry, of which I was enrolled in a Masters program, and have since resigned.

My resignation is a result of my strong disagreement with Progressive doctrine.
I have come to conclude that the people who profess a Progressive Doctrine are simply thieves in the night. Their purpose is not the salvation of the souls or the betterment of the Catholic Church.

Their purpose is the deconstruction of the Catholic Church in order to reshape it to accomplish their ideological social objective. The person in the pew simply becomes a pawn in the Progressive movements quest for a different type of world. The salvation of an individuals soul and their redemption is not their objective, as it is with the true Catholic Church. It is simply not on the agenda of the Progressive Movement.

. . . The purpose of this web site is to explain my reasons for resigning from the Masters degree program at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, Illinois.
In short, I view the methodology used to promote the ‘Progressive’ concepts taught at CTU as being deceptive to the students and to the communities served by CTU.
I also believe that the content of the Progressive agenda has crossed over the line of being heretical and of being conceived by the union of emotion and ideology, clothed in weak philosophy and theology; with an attempt to legitimatize the birth with a rewriting of Church history and out-of-context interpretations of Church doctrine.

For the record, of the ten courses I have taken at CTU, I have achieved a 3.95 GPA .”

Bearing all of the aforementioned in mind, it would be understandable if some of us might feel the occasional twinge when we read in that same Chicago Tribune article that ,

“ In her kitchen on Sundays at dawn, she even bakes the bread later consecrated for Communion.”

One hopes and prays that it is unleavened bread made solely from wheaten flour and water which is being baked, so that the parishoners may have the matter for *valid *consecration.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

If these women are ‘bishops’ then who is going to be their priests or congregation? They are following a well-worn path of deluded vagus priests and bishops, with two-digit congregations. The only thing new is their sex.

i.e. If yer gonna be ordained outside the Church, why settle for being a priest? Go the whole hog!

 

[Mickey]

Although I recognize and respect the ancient office of the deaconess in the early Church, the article in question makes me suspicious of motives. It is a progressive Church in Chicago and the long time former pastor admits to bending the rules. He even states that he permitted laity to preach in the Church (which I believe is uncanonical). The article says this:

The Rev. Robert Oldershaw, the parish’s former longtime pastor who retired in 2006, admits he sometimes bent the rules. But he always told the faithful they should listen to what God is asking of them. When they felt called to preach, he honored that.

Furthermore, the author of this article introduces a thread of radical dissention with this comment:

At a time when critics have accused Catholic Church leaders of declaring a war on women by restricting insurance coverage for contraceptives, rebuking American nuns and maintaining an all-male priesthood, a renewed discussion about ordaining women as deacons indicates high-profile church leaders such as George want to give women more opportunities for leadership.

The only critics making these “accusations” are those who are dissenters. The issue of contraception is non-negotiable in the Catholic Church. The American “nuns” mentioned here are radical feminists. And the all-male priesthood is of apostolic origin.

Finally, regarding the issue of the re-introduction of the deaconess…the article states that the Cardinal has taken the issue to Rome.

Cardinal Francis George reportedly promised to raise the question in Rome during his visit earlier this year.

Rome will rule on the matter…and then life will go on.

 

[jwinch2]

If these women are ‘bishops’ then who is going to be their priests or congregation? They are following a well-worn path of deluded vagus priests and bishops, with two-digit congregations. The only thing new is their sex.

i.e. If yer gonna be ordained outside the Church, why settle for being a priest? Go the whole hog!

Non serviam!

There are always those who think they know better than the Church on Faith and Morals, even those who claim to be Catholic.

Pride.

It always comes down to Pride.

 

[jwinch2]

dominicanablog.com/2012/09/18/the-o-word/

audiosancto.org/sermon/20090815-Achieve-Perfection-By-Imitating-the-Obedience-of-the-Blessed-Mother.html

 

[Irishgal49]

Story:
articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-21/news/ct-met-women-deacons-20120821_1_female-deacons-female-priests-parishioner

"Lynne Mapes-Riordan, of Evanston, hopes women will one day serve as Roman Catholic deacons. After 800 years, she could be one of the first. "

Comments or opinions?

There is more pecident for women to be deacons than priests. I wouldn’t mind women as deacons but not as priests. Phoebe was a deacon–the word used to describe her in Greek in Romans 16:1 is the same deacon word Paul uses when he says, “If someone desires the office of a Deacon he desires a good work”. And by the way, in my Greek word study that is ONLY time that Paul uses the masculine Deacon to describe a woman, the other times he used deaconess, which could be he wife of a deacon or those women who helped out with baptism. Phoebe was referred to by the same word that is used to describe the office of deacon-the only instance where the MASCULINE Deacon was used.

So…sorry…I would say there is one instance of a woman holding offce as a deacon. I don’t see anything that affirms women as priests and I was ordained in the Methodist Church before my Catholic conversion so I would like to think that gives me some experience as a clergy woman.

So after all that, Deacon yes (go Phoebe!), Priest, no.

 

[Irishgal49]

Non serviam!

There are always those who think they know better than the Church on Faith and Morals, even those who claim to be Catholic.

Pride.

It always comes down to Pride.

Pride on behalf of the men who won’t budge or pride on behalf of women who are simply desiring to serve? I guess I’m confused. I can disagree but I can’t possibly know someone’s motives.

 

[jwinch2]

Pride on behalf of the men who won’t budge or pride on behalf of women who are simply desiring to serve? I guess I’m confused. I can disagree but I can’t possibly know someone’s motives.

Pride of those who think they know better than the Church founded by our Blessed Lord, particularly on issues so central to the faith such as who can or cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

This is not a women’s rights issue, as some would try to portray. God does not call us to serve in ways in which we cannot, and no one has a right to Holy Orders. Holy Orders must be a vocation from God, and it is the Church who is the authentic interpreter of who has, or has not, received such a calling.

God guides the Church through the Holy Spirit and Christ gave the Church the authority to speak in his name. The Church, in this authority and with this divine guidance, has stated that women cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Yet, despite this, many women still claim to be called to them. They are not.

 

[Irishgal49]

Pride of those who think they know better than the Church founded by our Blessed Lord, particularly on issues so central to the faith such as who can or cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

This is not a women’s rights issue, as some would try to portray. God does not call us to serve in ways in which we cannot, and no one has a right to Holy Orders. Holy Orders must be a vocation from God, and it is the Church who is the authentic interpreter of who has, or has not, received such a calling.

God guides the Church through the Holy Spirit and Christ gave the Church the authority to speak in his name. The Church, in this authority and with this divine guidance, has stated that women cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Yet, despite this, many women still claim to be called to them. They are not.

I don’t think anyone can say who is called and who isn’t. I am certainly not going to say that. There has been talk about a diaconate with women, even talk of bringing back the deaconess, which would make sense in light of the all male priesthood to have women who can be set apart to work with other women.

 

[adrift]

Altar girls may be up to the priest nevertheless I am very happy to see them in my Church.
I was taught about the Inquisition in my 11th grade religion class in a Catholic school. The Inquisition was a blight on the Church. You are attempting to make the Church look perfect. It wasn’t then, Doesn’t matter if it was not millions. It could have been only 10 people still doesn’t look good.
Blind faith is not a good thing.

Are you saying all the inquisitions or is there a paticular one that you refer to?

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t think anyone can say who is called and who isn’t.

The Church can. That is her charge. The one person who cannot, is the person who is seeking them.

There has been talk about a diaconate with women, even talk of bringing back the deaconess, which would make sense in light of the all male priesthood to have women who can be set apart to work with other women.

The ancient office of deaconess was very different than today’s office of deacon. In addition, there is some evidence to suggest that even the employment of the office was different in the Eastern and Western Churches with some saying that in the West the deaconesses were merely the wives of deacons, and others suggesting they were more than that. There is also evidence that the numbers of deaconesses was significantly smaller in the Western Tradition as compared to the East. There is some good stuff on this earlier in the thread if you are so inclined.

As for the rest, the Church has stated that women cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Based on this solid post , contributed earlier in the thread . . .

Deaconesses as you describe them did not exist in the Catholic Church.

Quote:
GENERAL DECREE OF THE
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH:
Automatic excommunication for “ordination” of women
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

. . . I’m not sure I could agree totally with what was expressed three posts earlier , and have to wonder whether the question isn’t one which is so much pertinent to the Church deciding or “saying” who is *called *as it is to the Church deciding who is sent - at the moment of ordination.

Furthermore, one is meant to discern a call, and the Church intends to discern along with the one who feels called.

Where the stick gets inserted squarely into the spokes is when the individual who feels called decides to dictate the conditions to their calling - on how they are called - to the point where it undermines the infrastructure of the Church to suit their own personal tastes . . . hardly something compatible with the desire to serve. Ironic then, that accusations of “pride” are leveled from those same coordinates.

When we examine it logically, the impetus, despite whatever disguise it may currently be wearing is predominantly the same old “sexist” charge.

Now if the Holy Catholic Church is simply a bunch of “proud” “men who won’t budge”, then it isn’t really guided by the Holy Spirit - is it ? But what subsequently becomes even more mind-boggling, is why anyone embracing a feminist rant would ever want to be inducted into that proud, heretical , unbudging , boy’s club called ordination. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/LadyOtaku/smileys/confused.gif
That would appear to indicate more discontent with being a woman than it would with not being ordained, if we really think about it.

What was the reasoning given by the Catholic Church again. . . ? . . .

66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

Well that would have to mean that our Blessed Lord and the Holy Spirit are sexist too . . . wouldn’t it ?

And , upon reflection , , I just might be inclined to agree , seeing as they elevated a Woman to the highest place in Heaven after God Himself – so far beyond even the greatest Saint or Angel . . . oh, but wasn’t that for being a Mother ?

 

[Yerusalyim]

Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

I’m trying to become a car…how’s that working out for you, Ma’am?

 

[Holly3278]

I can say this much: this woman is very unorthodox. All orthodox Catholics know that ordination is only available to men. I do pray that this woman returns or goes to orthodox Catholicism. I speak this as a woman myself. I do not desire ordination. I feel blessed to be a woman. After all, the Blessed Virgin Mary was of course, a woman. She was infinitely more blessed than I ever have been or ever will be though.

 

[Irishgal49]

Now if the Holy Catholic Church is simply a bunch of “proud” “men who won’t budge”, then it isn’t really guided by the Holy Spirit - is it ? But what subsequently becomes even more mind-boggling, is why anyone embracing a feminist rant would ever want to be inducted into that proud, heretical , unbudging , boy’s club called ordination.

We don’t belong to the Church because she’s perfect, after all we are all sinners. We belong to the Church because she continually strives to be holy. Just because we are sinners doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit doesn’t continue to try to guide us onto perfection. The reason someone would want to go against all traditions and teachings of the Church is because they sincerely believe in their call and sometimes when you believe you are called you have to be willing to stand alone. However misguided you may feel that is, she is doing what she sincerely feels is right.

It might be more helpful to pray for someone than make fun of them and roll your eyes. Whatever you may feel her desire to serve the Church is admirable in a day when most people complain about attending Mass once a week. Women are ordained in many denominations and work out very well as Deacons and Clergy. I admire her desire to serve and pray that God blesses her for her heart of service and compassion.