Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

[jwinch2]

Women are ordained in many denominations and work out very well as Deacons and Clergy. I admire her desire to serve and pray that God blesses her for her heart of service and compassion.

Catholicism is not a denomination, it is the true Church founded by Christ and carried on through Apostolic succession. What other groups do regarding their “ordination” is irrelevant since they don’t have valid holy orders in the first place.

 

[bobballen_18]

It was not political. It was deeply personal. As Oldershaw had always taught, [Mapes-Riordan] tuned into what God was asking of her, and she told Tkachuk.

"I honestly said to her about what she was perceiving and experiencing: “If you were a man, I would be handing you the application and encouraging you to fill it out to begin this ,’” Tkachuk said.

…Emphases are mine.

First of all, God would not ask her to do something that the Church forbids. Therefore, God is not asking her to do this. It is either her own desire or the Devil speaking to her.

Next of all, Tkachuk is perfectly right; however, she is not a man, so it is certainly not anything that he should be encouraging.

 

[Irishgal49]

…Emphases are mine.

First of all, God would not ask her to do something that the Church forbids. Therefore, God is not asking her to do this. It is either her own desire or the Devil speaking to her.

Next of all, Tkachuk is perfectly right; however, she is not a man, so it is certainly not anything that he should be encouraging.

I don’t believe the Devil would ask her to devote her life in service to God. That’s the house divided against itself quote. And sorry to disappoint but the Catholic Church is a denomination. And holy orders in other faiths ARE valid in their faith. I affirm their faith and don’t look down my nose at someone who isn’t Catholic.

I think it’s admirable she wants to serve when most men won’t.

 

[Irishgal49]

Catholicism is not a denomination, it is the true Church founded by Christ and carried on through Apostolic succession. What other groups do regarding their “ordination” is irrelevant since they don’t have valid holy orders in the first place.

Technically it is a denomination.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t believe the Devil would ask her to devote her life in service to God. That’s the house divided against itself quote. And sorry to disappoint but the Catholic Church is a denomination. And holy orders in other faiths ARE valid in their faith. I affirm their faith and don’t look down my nose at someone who isn’t Catholic.

I think it’s admirable she wants to serve when most men won’t.

God also doesn’t give people tasks that are impossible to accomplish.

And, technically speaking, no, the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. It came first. Other Christian churches are offshoots. It’s like saying that a mother with two sons is their sister as well their mother.

Having faith in a holy order’s validity is only part of the equation. A spiritual change actually happens in the case of Catholic Holy Orders…that’s why it’s a sacrament. The man himself is the valid material for the sacrament. If other denominations have faith in their holy orders, so be it. But, a lot of people have faith that Bigfoot exists purely on faith, too.

We shouldn’t ever look down our noses at people of other faiths, but we also are not to deny the truth that the Catholic Church is the only Church that contains the fullness of Christian teaching. Teaching the Truth, in as gentle and loving a way as we can, is part of our duty as Christians, whether by word or action, or both.

Also, the fact that “most men won’t” respond to the call to become priests is a gross, sweeping generalization that you have no right to say, because you don’t know “most men” and their individual circumstances.

Shame on you.

 

[Lochias]

Technically it is a denomination.

No, it isn’t.

 

[Church_Man]

A couple of thoughts…

First of all, several have stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to the Diaconate since Rome / Pope has stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained. What Rome / the Pope has stated is that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained as a PRIEST. If Rome or the Pope didn’t want women to be ordained as Deacons, they could proclaim: “Since women have never been ordained as Deacons and there is no evidence that women have ever been Deacons, women can not be ordained as Deacons.”

But, Rome or the Pope hasn’t and won’t make the statement because they know that women were Deacons and they were ordained.

If anyone can find anywhere a statement that has come out of Rome that it is impossible for women to be ordained as a Deacon, I’ll give $100 to your favorite charity!

Secondly, some have stated that the Holy Spirit would never ask someone to do the impossible. Well, women Deacons are possible. Maybe the Holy Spirit is driving women to use their spiritual gifts to build up the Church. Many, many, many holy women have stepped up throughout history to challenge the Church to grow spiritually. They fought stereotypes, thought outside the box, challenged the thinking of those around them and the Holy Spirit used them to bring people to God. Some examples? St. Joan of Arc, St. Therese of Avila, Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta, as well as women saints who were Deacons in the Early Church!

Third, some have stated that women cannot be Deacons because the ordained take on the persona of Christ. The role of Deacon is to take on “Christ as servant.” Next time you go to Mass, look around. Who’s there? I would bet a majority are women. Who are Catechists, Lectors, Communion Ministers, Christian Service helpers and almost every other ministry in Church? I would bet its women. Women do most of the service at Church. I think the Church should recognize their gifts of service and allow them to become Deacons, as they were in the Early Church.

 

[jwinch2]

Technically it is a denomination.

believe what you like.

 

[jwinch2]

A couple of thoughts…

First of all, several have stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to the Diaconate since Rome / Pope has stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained. What Rome / the Pope has stated is that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained as a PRIEST. If Rome or the Pope didn’t want women to be ordained as Deacons, they could proclaim: “Since women have never been ordained as Deacons and there is no evidence that women have ever been Deacons, women can not be ordained as Deacons.”

But, Rome or the Pope hasn’t and won’t make the statement because they know that women were Deacons and they were ordained.

If anyone can find anywhere a statement that has come out of Rome that it is impossible for women to be ordained as a Deacon, I’ll give $100 to your favorite charity!

Secondly, some have stated that the Holy Spirit would never ask someone to do the impossible. Well, women Deacons are possible. Maybe the Holy Spirit is driving women to use their spiritual gifts to build up the Church. Many, many, many holy women have stepped up throughout history to challenge the Church to grow spiritually. They fought stereotypes, thought outside the box, challenged the thinking of those around them and the Holy Spirit used them to bring people to God. Some examples? St. Joan of Arc, St. Therese of Avila, Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta, as well as women saints who were Deacons in the Early Church!

Third, some have stated that women cannot be Deacons because the ordained take on the persona of Christ. The role of Deacon is to take on “Christ as servant.” Next time you go to Mass, look around. Who’s there? I would bet a majority are women. Who are Catechists, Lectors, Communion Ministers, Christian Service helpers and almost every other ministry in Church? I would bet its women. Women do most of the service at Church. I think the Church should recognize their gifts of service and allow them to become Deacons, as they were in the Early Church.

Do Deacons receive the sacrament of Holy Orders? Yes. Can women receive this? No. The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses this, not in the context of the priesthood, but in the context of the sacrament of Holy Orders in its entirety.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm

CCC:

VI. WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS SACRAMENT?

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

1578 No one has a right to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God.69 Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God’s call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be received only as an unmerited gift.

 

[ValPal]

A couple of thoughts…

First of all, several have stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to the Diaconate since Rome / Pope has stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained. What Rome / the Pope has stated is that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained as a PRIEST. If Rome or the Pope didn’t want women to be ordained as Deacons, they could proclaim: “Since women have never been ordained as Deacons and there is no evidence that women have ever been Deacons, women can not be ordained as Deacons.”

But, Rome or the Pope hasn’t and won’t make the statement because they know that women were Deacons and they were ordained.

This is entirely incorrect. See

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4S.HTM

Specifically:

1538 Integration into one of these bodies in the Church was accomplished by a rite called ordinatio, a religious and liturgical act which was a consecration, a blessing or a sacrament. Today the word “ordination” is reserved for the sacramental act which integrates a man into the order of bishops, presbyters, or deacons, and goes beyond a simple election, designation, delegation, or institution by the community, for it confers a gift of the Holy Spirit that permits the exercise of a “sacred power” (sacra potestas)5 which can come only from Christ himself through his Church. Ordination is also called consecratio, for it is a setting apart and an investiture by Christ himself for his Church. the laying on of hands by the bishop, with the consecratory prayer, constitutes the visible sign of this ordination.

If anyone can find anywhere a statement that has come out of Rome that it is impossible for women to be ordained as a Deacon, I’ll give $100 to your favorite charity!

PM me and I’ll tell you who to send the check to.

 

[Irishgal49]

God also doesn’t give people tasks that are impossible to accomplish.

And, technically speaking, no, the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. It came first. Other Christian churches are offshoots. It’s like saying that a mother with two sons is their sister as well their mother.

Having faith in a holy order’s validity is only part of the equation. A spiritual change actually happens in the case of Catholic Holy Orders…that’s why it’s a sacrament. The man himself is the valid material for the sacrament. If other denominations have faith in their holy orders, so be it. But, a lot of people have faith that Bigfoot exists purely on faith, too.

We shouldn’t ever look down our noses at people of other faiths, but we also are not to deny the truth that the Catholic Church is the only Church that contains the fullness of Christian teaching. Teaching the Truth, in as gentle and loving a way as we can, is part of our duty as Christians, whether by word or action, or both.

Also, the fact that “most men won’t” respond to the call to become priests is a gross, sweeping generalization that you have no right to say, because you don’t know “most men” and their individual circumstances.

Shame on you.

Shame on me? Wow. I’m so glad I come here for my daily abuse, LOL. I just think it’s admirable she wants to serve and I don’t see anything heretical about that statement. And most men aren’t priests or the churches would be all female. If you’re stung by that comment…well you know the rest.

 

[Irishgal49]

A couple of thoughts…

First of all, several have stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to the Diaconate since Rome / Pope has stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained. What Rome / the Pope has stated is that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained as a PRIEST. If Rome or the Pope didn’t want women to be ordained as Deacons, they could proclaim: “Since women have never been ordained as Deacons and there is no evidence that women have ever been Deacons, women can not be ordained as Deacons.”

But, Rome or the Pope hasn’t and won’t make the statement because they know that women were Deacons and they were ordained.

If anyone can find anywhere a statement that has come out of Rome that it is impossible for women to be ordained as a Deacon, I’ll give $100 to your favorite charity!

Secondly, some have stated that the Holy Spirit would never ask someone to do the impossible. Well, women Deacons are possible. Maybe the Holy Spirit is driving women to use their spiritual gifts to build up the Church. Many, many, many holy women have stepped up throughout history to challenge the Church to grow spiritually. They fought stereotypes, thought outside the box, challenged the thinking of those around them and the Holy Spirit used them to bring people to God. Some examples? St. Joan of Arc, St. Therese of Avila, Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta, as well as women saints who were Deacons in the Early Church!

Third, some have stated that women cannot be Deacons because the ordained take on the persona of Christ. The role of Deacon is to take on “Christ as servant.” Next time you go to Mass, look around. Who’s there? I would bet a majority are women. Who are Catechists, Lectors, Communion Ministers, Christian Service helpers and almost every other ministry in Church? I would bet its women. Women do most of the service at Church. I think the Church should recognize their gifts of service and allow them to become Deacons, as they were in the Early Church.

Mary was asked to the impossible and God made a way. Maybe this woman will realize what’s she’s asking and go to the Episcopal or Methodist Church. Her many gifts could be utilized quite well there.

 

[Irishgal49]

Do Deacons receive the sacrament of Holy Orders? Yes. Can women receive this? No. The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses this, not in the context of the priesthood, but in the context of the sacrament of Holy Orders in its entirety.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm

Sorry Jason but women were deacons. Power corrupts and we can only pray the Church continues to strive to be what God desires.

 

[jwinch2]

Sorry Jason but women were deacons. Power corrupts and we can only pray the Church continues to strive to be what God desires.

You really, really, need to go back and read the rest of this thread to include the documents linked and recommended throughout. Women were deaconesses, not deacons. The offices were not the same then, and the ancient office of deaconess was certainly not the same as today’s office of permanent deacon.

 

[fix]

I don’t believe the Devil would ask her to devote her life in service to God. That’s the house divided against itself quote. And sorry to disappoint but the Catholic Church is a denomination. And holy orders in other faiths ARE valid in their faith. I affirm their faith and don’t look down my nose at someone who isn’t Catholic.

I think it’s admirable she wants to serve when most men won’t.

The Church is not a denomination. Holy Orders cannot be valid and invalid at the same time.

God does not lead people away from His Church.

 

[fix]

We don’t belong to the Church because she’s perfect, after all we are all sinners. We belong to the Church because she continually strives to be holy. Just because we are sinners doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit doesn’t continue to try to guide us onto perfection. The reason someone would want to go against all traditions and teachings of the Church is because they sincerely believe in their call and sometimes when you believe you are called you have to be willing to stand alone. However misguided you may feel that is, she is doing what she sincerely feels is right.

It might be more helpful to pray for someone than make fun of them and roll your eyes. Whatever you may feel her desire to serve the Church is admirable in a day when most people complain about attending Mass once a week. Women are ordained in many denominations and work out very well as Deacons and Clergy. I admire her desire to serve and pray that God blesses her for her heart of service and compassion.

Is not the measure of humility obedience? How does one claim faithfulness to our Lord by rejecting His authority?

 

[Irishgal49]

You really, really, need to go back and read the rest of this thread to include the documents linked and recommended throughout. Women were deaconesses, not deacons. The offices were not the same then, and the ancient office of deaconess was certainly not the same as today’s office of permanent deacon.

Actually they were deacons. The word used for Phoebe is the only instance where the masculine greek for Deacon was used in describing a woman. When deaconness was used it’s an entirely different Greek word. I hate to oppose the Church’s interpretation but there are two different words and Phoebe is the one time it’s the masculine deacon. It’s the “Deacon” used in the passage, “If man desires the office of Deacon he desires a good work.” 1 Timothy 3:1.

I did a very in depth study on that word and Phoebe is the only case where she is referred to by the word used for the male holding that office. So yes, I believe she was a Deacon. Now having said that, was she ordained? I have no idea. Maybe not. Maybe they had lay deacons. It’s entirely possible. I’m just saying that she was given the name that Paul refers to when he talks about the office of Deacon in 1 Timothy.

Whether or not the Church ever ordains women is really not the end of the planet for me. I just think it’s nice women want to serve. And i also know that just because someone’s a man doesn’t make him a good candidate either. I pray gender will no longer matter but I can say I have some wonderful priests I talk to and I appreciate their willingness to serve as well.

I guess if ordination is in your calling then you would have to consider another faith. I was ordained in 1993 and 1996 as a United Methodist clergy. After my son’s tragic death I stepped down. During that time my son came to me in a dream and asked me to have Masses said for him. I have a masters in divinity but being a protestant seminary I didn’t know for sure what a Mass was but I did it and through that I became Catholic. My dead son brought me into the Catholic faith. I will never say I regretted being ordained before I coverted and I know I served God well.

I love the Catholic faith and while I understand there are beliefs and reasoning it’s still a huge transition for me. I still think it’s neat someone wants to talk about change because it gets people talking about why things are the way they are and how women can serve and affirms their worth.

Blessings–and hopefully this won’t get me a “shame on you”

 

[Irishgal49]

The Church is not a denomination. Holy Orders cannot be valid and invalid at the same time.

God does not lead people away from His Church.

I don’t think the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church. Like Fr Robert Barron said it has the fullness of grace in it’s sacraments, you can go to heaven in another Christian faith. So if someone did go to another Christian faith to serve what they believed to be their call they may become another denomination but if they are still Christian they are still on the path to heaven.

 

[Church_Man]

This is entirely incorrect. See

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4S.HTM

Specifically:

1538 Integration into one of these bodies in the Church was accomplished by a rite called ordinatio, a religious and liturgical act which was a consecration, a blessing or a sacrament. Today the word “ordination” is reserved for the sacramental act which integrates a man into the order of bishops, presbyters, or deacons, and goes beyond a simple election, designation, delegation, or institution by the community, for it confers a gift of the Holy Spirit that permits the exercise of a “sacred power” (sacra potestas)5 which can come only from Christ himself through his Church. Ordination is also called consecratio, for it is a setting apart and an investiture by Christ himself for his Church. the laying on of hands by the bishop, with the consecratory prayer, constitutes the visible sign of this ordination.

PM me and I’ll tell you who to send the check to.

Notice that the document states “Today” Yes, today, now-a-days, right now, only men are ordained to the Diaconate. This document could very easily have stated, “As throughout our history, only men have been ordained to the Diaconate” They didn’t because they know that women were ordained to the Diaconate. There is lots of evidence, documents and history to this fact.

And the other references that have been given always speaks about women and the priesthood. There is has been nothing that has come out of Rome that has stated, “Women can not and have never been Deacons.”

Again, find that and I’ll give $200 to your favorite charity!

 

[fix]

I don’t think the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church.

It is the only means of salvation. Elements of the Church may be found in other places, but salvation exists only through the Church.

Like Fr Robert Barron said it has the fullness of grace in it’s sacraments, you can go to heaven in another Christian faith.

If anyone gets to heaven it is only through the Catholic Church whether they realize on earth or not.

So if someone did go to another Christian faith to serve what they believed to be their call they may become another denomination but if they are still Christian they are still on the path to heaven.

you refer to nonculpable ignorance. While possible it is also possible that it can be culpable ignorance.

Kinda hard for a Catholic to justify rejecting Christ through His Church claiming the Holy Spirit is calling them away from the Church.