Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

[NeedImprovement]

Although this article by Father Robert Barron discusses the gravity of disunity caused by the attempted ordination of women in the Catholic Church within the context of and on par with several other grave matters , he maintains the position that the Vatican’s statement addressed in that article is not anti-woman. He calls it one of the “ways the Church’s organic unity can be unraveled.”

. . . But so, in the eyes of the Vatican, is the breaking of the seal of confession, which undermines the trust that must obtain between a sinner and his confessor, and so is an attack on the Blessed Sacrament, which amounts to an attack on Christ himself.
By the same token, the attempt by a bishop to ordain a woman to the priesthood (a move that has been ruled out of court by the Vatican) would sever that bishop’s relationship with the Pope and hence with his brother bishops. It would place him outside the communion of the church, and since he is the sign and instrument of his people’s unity, it would compromise their relationship with the universal church as well.

If you have any doubt as to the division that can be caused in a church through the unilateral action of a group of bishops, take a good, hard look at the Anglican communion today.

Therefore, today’s statement isn’t anti-woman in any sense; it is an expression of concern over the number of ways that the church’s organic unity can be unraveled .

Given that the “attempt by a bishop to ordain a woman to the priesthood” was “(a move ruled out of court by the Vatican)” , I wonder how much of the details we might be privy to, if any ? As far as I can recall, according to the Rite of Ordination, only a man who has been ordained a deacon may be ordained to the priesthood . This would imply that the attempt to invalidly ordain the woman in question to the priesthood, would have had to include a previous attempt to invalidly ordain that woman a deacon.

Directly above , is the practical, working, answer which clearly portrays the implausibility of what some people are trying to argue thoretically here in print.

Even then, there have been so many posts such as this one

Do Deacons receive the sacrament of Holy Orders? Yes. Can women receive this? No. The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses this, not in the context of the priesthood, but in the context of the sacrament of Holy Orders in its entirety.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm

. . . which have continued to clearly state the position of the Catholic Church.

 

[ValPal]

. . . which have continued to clearly state the position of the Catholic Church.

I’m one of those people

I’ve also noted that the term “deacon” today and the term “deacon(ess)” 1,500 years ago may not have meant the same thing. Words change over time, and it would be improper to assume they don’t, which is what a lot of people may be getting tripped up over.

 

[Irishgal49]

Nobody said they wouldn’t merit heaven, but your very statement doesn’t make sense. I should know, because I used to grapple with it. You have to ask yourself: “Why Catholic?” There ARE tangible, true reasons that are related to merit and effect of grace that Protestants simply do not have access to.

Think of a big glass and a little glass, both filled with water. Yes, they’re both full; but one carries more than the other.

RESEARCH what you’re saying, because right now, you’re only touting a half-truth, and it might damage your faith in the end if you don’t do your homework. You can’t just stop when you find someone that says something that makes you feel comfortable.

Very good point. I like your comments here. I agree that the fullness of Grace is in the Catholic Church but that doesn’t mean that other churches don’t have ANY.

 

[Irishgal49]

No one said for anyone to leave. I am saying that if someone was adamant about being ordained and a woman they would probably end up leaving in order to follow what they believed to be their call. It happens every day. I do not judge that decision. That’s their choice.

Fr Barron never said to leave the Church. He said that someone cornered him asking can people in other faiths still go to heaven? He said of course they can. Then he was asked why doesn’t everyone leave the Catholic faith then and find an “easier” way since the Catholic Church is hard to follow? Wouldn’t it make sense to go to an easier to follow faith and still get in? So then he explained further. He said that the fullness of grace is in the Catholic Church. I have never advised someone to leave. If they are hell bent on leaving I would advise there are “churches” to avoid.

 

[Lochias]

Fr Barron never said to leave the Church. He said that someone cornered him asking can people in other faiths still go to heaven? He said of course they can. Then he was asked why doesn’t everyone leave the Catholic faith then and find an “easier” way since the Catholic Church is hard to follow? Wouldn’t it make sense to go to an easier to follow faith and still get in? So then he explained further. He said that the fullness of grace is in the Catholic Church. I have never advised someone to leave. If they are hell bent on leaving I would advise there are “churches” to avoid.

This much we can agree on. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that a practicing Catholic who decides to leave the faith for something else is courting very grave sin. To leave the fullness of Truth and grace for something lesser is a denial of what Jesus put into place.

People who never knew better in the first place, on the other hand, can’t be expected to be judged on what they never knew, hence “invincible ignorance.”

Edit: I will agree, too, that if someone is “hell-bent on leaving” that proper advisement is helpful. Personally, I would never let them think that I am condoning their choice to leave the Church, though…I would make it clear that that’s exactly what the situation is, their choice, and that they’re putting their souls at risk by doing so.

 

[Irishgal49]

Kinda hard for a Catholic to justify rejecting Christ through His Church claiming the Holy Spirit is calling them away from the Church.

I don’t know about that. I had a priest tell me that and I’m quoting him, “The Catholic faith is not for everybody” when I told him how I struggle with things. Then he said, “I often tell some people that if they cannot reconcile certain issues they can leave. It’s a hard faith to follow and some people aren’t cut out for it.”

I’m not sure what to make of that but he was clear that he meant what he said, not joking or angry. So I figured that maybe some of us aren’t cut out to be Catholic.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t know about that. I had a priest tell me that and I’m quoting him, “The Catholic faith is not for everybody” when I told him how I struggle with things. Then he said, “I often tell some people that if they cannot reconcile certain issues they can leave. It’s a hard faith to follow and some people aren’t cut out for it.”

I’m not sure what to make of that but he was clear that he meant what he said, not joking or angry. So I figured that maybe some of us aren’t cut out to be Catholic.

I can’t agree with what that priest said. We know Jesus doesn’t ask the impossible for us, and he’s the one who set up the Catholic Church to begin with. When I tried to leave the Church, for the sake of a girl, things went to hell in a handbasket in my life until I came back. God was letting me have my choice, but also allowing me to see what miseries that choice would bring.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other

 

[Just_Lurking]

. . . which have continued to clearly state the position of the Catholic Church.

Here is a clear statement of the position of the Catholic Church, by someone who was actually authorized to state the position of Catholic Church by the USCCB (see here):
In 2003, Father Ronald G. Roberson gave a presentation on the diaconate in the Latin Church to annual meeting of the U.S. Oriental Orthodox-Roman Catholic Consultation. He summarized the state of deaconess issue as follows: “The possibility of ordaining women to the diaconate is still an unsettled question in the Catholic Church. Latin rituals for ordaining deaconesses exist from as late as the 10th century, but the precise sacramental nature of these ordinations has not yet been determined authoritatively. There are recent indications that the Holy See intends to continue the exclusion of women from this office.” – Taken from Wikipedia (see here).
The main confusion in this thread seems to be a pervasive lack of distinction between something being against current canon law (but could change and/or could have been different in the past), and something that is an unchangable part of divine law.

BTW, there are examples in medieval times of men being validly ordained to the priesthood without first having been ordained as deacons.

 

[Irishgal49]

This much we can agree on. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that a practicing Catholic who decides to leave the faith for something else is courting very grave sin. To leave the fullness of Truth and grace for something lesser is a denial of what Jesus put into place.

People who never knew better in the first place, on the other hand, can’t be expected to be judged on what they never knew, hence “invincible ignorance.”

Edit: I will agree, too, that if someone is “hell-bent on leaving” that proper advisement is helpful. Personally, I would never let them think that I am condoning their choice to leave the Church, though…I would make it clear that that’s exactly what the situation is, their choice, and that they’re putting their souls at risk by doing so.

Wow! I agree with that 100%. I guess anyone believing that God had called them to receive holy orders and the Church says no (whether it’s a male deemed unfit or a woman by her gender) it would seem rather odd to leave and go elsewhere since you are Catholic and it would be strange to be sitting in Mass and have God say, “I want you to be an Episcopal priest.” OK I’m laughing but that is sort of what people who are deemed as not appropriate for ordination would be saying by leaving. Here’s what’s strange. I WAS an ordained clergy and every time we had communion it ate at me. A parishioner came out and his wife hugged me and said, “I hope you don’t mind I didn’t take communion. I’m Catholic and I can’t.” I told her, “I understand and don’t change that, you have the real deal.” I always believed that the Catholic Church’s teaching on transubstantiation was the truth and I was in misery until I finally became Catholic. All through seminary I was dubbed, “the Catholic priest wanna be”. I never felt called to be a Catholic priest so I’m not sure why my life went the way it did. So in effect I was a United Methodist clergy who was told, “Hey guess what? I want you to become Catholic and go to a church that will never recognize your orders or your ministry.” I won’t be arrogant and say that takes great faith on my part. It was merely confidence in God. But man I continue to struggle about women’s ordination and probably will for some time. I have compassion for women who, for whatever reason, believe they have a call on their life. Sadly many don’t have anyone to sort it out with and determine what that could mean for them and they jump on bandwagons that put them at odds with their faith.

I do agree 100% with everything you said on this last post. Imagine that --maybe my thick skull is getting a little thinner. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Irishgal49]

Here is a clear statement of the position of the Catholic Church, by someone who was actually authorized to state the position of Catholic Church by the USCCB (see here):
In 2003, Father Ronald G. Roberson gave a presentation on the diaconate in the Latin Church to annual meeting of the U.S. Oriental Orthodox-Roman Catholic Consultation. He summarized the state of deaconess issue as follows: “The possibility of ordaining women to the diaconate is still an unsettled question in the Catholic Church. Latin rituals for ordaining deaconesses exist from as late as the 10th century, but the precise sacramental nature of these ordinations has not yet been determined authoritatively. There are recent indications that the Holy See intends to continue the exclusion of women from this office.” – Taken from Wikipedia (see here).
The main confusion in this thread seems to be a pervasive lack of distinction between something being against current canon law (but could change and/or could have been different in the past), and something that is an unchangable part of divine law.

BTW, there are examples in medieval times of men being validly ordained to the priesthood without first having been ordained as deacons.

I was just thinking that lay deacons/deaconess might be appropriate. A lot of women need counseling and spiritual help and maybe having a commissioned group of women working with them would make it easier on the priests who have to be careful working with women and who are stretched really thin…or is there such a thing already? Not all women feel called to be a sister.

 

[Lochias]

Wow! I agree with that 100%. I guess anyone believing that God had called them to receive holy orders and the Church says no (whether it’s a male deemed unfit or a woman by her gender) it would seem rather odd to leave and go elsewhere since you are Catholic and it would be strange to be sitting in Mass and have God say, “I want you to be an Episcopal priest.” OK I’m laughing but that is sort of what people who are deemed as not appropriate for ordination would be saying by leaving. Here’s what’s strange. I WAS an ordained clergy and every time we had communion it ate at me. A parishioner came out and his wife hugged me and said, “I hope you don’t mind I didn’t take communion. I’m Catholic and I can’t.” I told her, “I understand and don’t change that, you have the real deal.” I always believed that the Catholic Church’s teaching on transubstantiation was the truth and I was in misery until I finally became Catholic. All through seminary I was dubbed, “the Catholic priest wanna be”. I never felt called to be a Catholic priest so I’m not sure why my life went the way it did. So in effect I was a United Methodist clergy who was told, “Hey guess what? I want you to become Catholic and go to a church that will never recognize your orders or your ministry.” I won’t be arrogant and say that takes great faith on my part. It was merely confidence in God. But man I continue to struggle about women’s ordination and probably will for some time. I have compassion for women who, for whatever reason, believe they have a call on their life. Sadly many don’t have anyone to sort it out with and determine what that could mean for them and they jump on bandwagons that put them at odds with their faith.

I do agree 100% with everything you said on this last post. Imagine that --maybe my thick skull is getting a little thinner. Thanks for your patience.

Well, goodness. Your story is inspiring, to be sure. It’s stories like yours that remind me just how little I’ve been exposed to, in terms of other faiths and the like. Thanks for sharing. When I left the church for a while, as stated above, it was to a United Methodist church that my ex goes to, and there were a lot of very nice, very genuine, very Christian people there, to be sure. I think they weren’t sure what to do with me, to be honest.

And, I don’t think you ever had a thick skull…I think I’ve just learned a bit on how to stop wielding my faith like a club. I’ve not been very charitable in the past with discussions like these, so, thanks for your patience. Goodness knows that the mods have had a ton of patience with me as well.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Here’s an excerpt of a transcript from Fr Barrons comments in a video entitled

Father Robert Barron Comments on Leaving the Church

The video (about 7½ minutes long) can be seen at this link : wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr-Barron-comments-on-Leaving-The-Church.aspx

Excerpt taken from transcript beginning at 3:16 -

“Okay, but here’s the thing : neither Thomas Aquinas nor John Henry Newman nor the fathers of Vatican II would ever draw the conclusion that therefore it’s a matter of indifference whether you belong to the (Catholic) Church. They would never draw from that premise, the conclusion that, it’s perfectly valid , you know – to leave and it doesn’t affect your spiritual life in any way.

No , what they would say is this : The Catholic Church represents the fullness of what Christ wanted to reveal to His people. It has all the gifts that Christ wants his people to have. Therefore, even though, yes, you can have access to God’s grace outside the Catholic Church, it is indispensably important that you remain a member of the Catholic Church. . . "

---

On leaving the Catholic Church and on the ordination of women as being the reason for leaving , Father Barron smmarizes the validity of what the Catholic Church definitively holds and teaches, the same of which appears to have been reiterated on this thread slightly more than a few times now :

From : CNA Article **Why Do Catholics Leave And What Can Be Done About It, **
by Father Robert Barron

LINK

“The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.”

 

[Just_Lurking]

I was just thinking that lay deacons/deaconess might be appropriate. A lot of women need counseling and spiritual help and maybe having a commissioned group of women working with them would make it easier on the priests who have to be careful working with women and who are stretched really thin…or is there such a thing already? Not all women feel called to be a sister.

But wouldn’t those commissioned women be strengthened in their service and their mission by the sacramental graces of diaconal ordination, just as male permanent deacons are today?

In fact, the restoration of permanent diaconate by Vatican II is the reason for the renewed theological exploration of the future possibility of the diaconal ordination of women. When the diaconate was merely a stepping stone to the priesthood, it didn’t matter whether women could possibly be deacons because they certainly couldn’t ever be priests.

 

[Church_Man]

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE WOMEN DEACONS WHO ARE SAINTS IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?

Here is a A Partial List of Women Deacon Saints as found in the calendar of the Orthodox Church

Location / Name of Woman Deacon / Feast day

Alexandria / St. Domnika / Jan. 8
Nyssa, Greece / St. Theosebia, wife of St. Gregory of Nyssa / Jan. 10
/ St. Tatiana / Jan. 12
Island of Kos / St. Xenia, ‘the Merciful’ / Jan. 24
Alexandria / St. Apollonia / Feb. 9
Corinth / St. Priscilla / Feb. 13
Nazianze, Greece / St. Gorgonia / Feb. 23
St. Platonida / April 6
Rome / St. Tryphena / April 14
Persia / seven women deacon martyrs / May 16
Rome / St. Junia or Julia / May 17
Amnisa, Pontus / St. Macrina, ‘the great teacher’ / July 19
Constantinople / St. Olympia / July 25
Constantinople / St. Irene ‘of Chrysovalantou’ / July 28
/ St. Lydia / August 3
Nazianze, Greece / St. Nonna, wife of St. Gregory, Bishop of Nazianze / August 5
Gaul / St. Radegunde / August 13
Corinth, Greece / St. Phoebe / September 3
/ St. Justina / October 2
Antioch / St. Poplia ‘Confessor of the Faith’ / October 9
Joppa, Syria / St. Tabitha / October 25
/ St. Susanna / December 15
Rome / St. Melania ‘the Younger’ / December 31

 

[fix]

That is not true. It’s not even supported by any priests. Yes it is the fullness of grace and the original church created by Christ but it’s not the ONLY way.

That is not true. It’s not even supported by any priests.

Take a look at what Rome has said.

Anyone saved is saved through the Catholic Church. That is not my teaching that is what the Church teaches.

 

[fix]

Well we see several examples of people who were accused of heresy, sanctioned and/or put to death by the church for “rejecting authority” or “not being obedient” and who were later sainted and/or declared to be right:

Galileo
St Teresa of Avila
St Joan of Ark

and several others who were punished by their order for being “disobedient”
St John of the Cross (a personal favorite of mine)
St Bernadette
St Faustina

So…I will never claim to be anything near a saint but I’d be proud to be lumped in with them.

Which canonized saints rejected the authority of the Church in matters of faith and morals? None of those listed for sure.

 

[fix]

I believe there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Most Catholics including Fr Robert Barron who does a lot of public videos encouraging people to consider the Catholic faith admits that you can belong to another Christian faith and go to heaven. You miss the fullness of the grace in the sacraments. I would believe a priest of his caliber over cut and paste on this forum.

You are confused.

 

[ValPal]

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE WOMEN DEACONS WHO ARE SAINTS IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?

Here is a A Partial List of Women Deacon Saints as found in the calendar of the Orthodox Church

Do you also have a list of the dates they received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which bishops ordained them, and what the Holy Orders consisted of? All of your posts are completely void of this issue, yet it is essential to making your point.

 

[april32010]

I don’t think the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church. Like Fr Robert Barron said it has the fullness of grace in it’s sacraments, you can go to heaven in another Christian faith. So if someone did go to another Christian faith to serve what they believed to be their call they may become another denomination but if they are still Christian they are still on the path to heaven.

no,then they are an apostate.