Chief Rabbinate of Israel break ties to Vatican

[chosen_people]

Please, please, please read some of the many threads posted on what has actually happened and what it means in terms of the SSPX.

1. No group has been “invited back”. **Four individuals **had canonical penalties lifted. These penalties were incurred due to specific ACTIONS not because of theological views.
2. The SSPX has “issues” with the way ‘no salvation outside the Church’ has been expressed since Vatican II. This isn’t a singling out of Jews, it is a change in how the Church views ALL those of other religions. This difference in views was not one of the reasons for the excommunication.
3. The lifting of the excommunications means that discussion can move forward regarding if and how the followers of the SSPX can rejoin in practice and organization the rest of the Church. Once those discussions move forward, individual views and positions will be addressed. This is just the first step.
4. This is an internal disciplinary matter, as the Vatican has said many times. It is not for you or anyone else to second guess the motives of the parties involved.

Anti-semitism against Jews is** not** an internal issue. There is no validity, factually or morally, to your point #2 above.

 

[Dauphin]

Anti-semitism against Jews is** not** an internal issue. There is no validity, factually or morally, to your point #2 above.

The theology of the Church concerning the Jews is an internal issue, along with disciplinary decisions like excommunication.

Feel free to condemn anti-semitism (which is the irrational hatred of Jews simply for being Jews, nothing else), but don’t tell the Church what she teaches.

That Rabbis are openly demanding that the SSPX “accept Vatican II” demonstrates that they think they get to dictate Christian doctrine to the Church. It’s this profound arrogance which breeds anti-semitism.

 

[Kaninchen]

All that’s being said is that, in the circumstances, it’s difficult to see how a particular set of conversations can be continued - how is that ‘arrogant’?

Of course the Catholic Church has every right to run itself just as it wants but that has consequences (both intended and unintended) and other people also have the right to deal with those consequences as they see fit - which may include not wanting to have particular conversations.

 

[Kaninchen]

They may be separate matters from one point of view but not from another - it’s called ‘unintended consequences of one’s actions’ (which are often the more significant consequences). Welcoming back ‘home’ a notorious Jew-hater may be incidental to one agenda but central to another.

 

[Valke2]

It may be seperate matters. However, it is obvious that for Jews and the rest of the world, they are directly linked. If a bishop went around saying that Hitler was a good man, this technically might not prevent him from becoming Pope or later becoming a saint. It would still reflect badly on the church and I would reasonably assume that the Church was not as interested in promoting good relations with jews, at the least.

 

[Valke2]

They may be separate matters from one point of view but not from another - it’s called ‘unintended consequences of one’s actions’ (which are often the more significant consequences). Welcoming back ‘home’ a notorious Jew-hater may be incidental to one agenda but central to another.

Very well said. (Your bunny still makes me nervous)

 

[Dauphin]

It may be seperate matters. However, it is obvious that for Jews and the rest of the world, they are directly linked. If a bishop went around saying that Hitler was a good man, this technically might not prevent him from becoming Pope or later becoming a saint. It would still reflect badly on the church and I would reasonably assume that the Church was not as interested in promoting good relations with jews, at the least.

Great! I’ve been very pleased by the Jewish reaction insofar as they’ve cut off relations with the Vatican. I see absolutely no use in constantly receiving the complaints of Jews, which is the only purpose such discussions serve.

Let’s have a schism. Catholics will go one way and Jews will go the other way. We won’t tell you what to believe, and you won’t tell us. This seems to me to be the ideal arrangement.

 

[Kaninchen]

Very well said. (Your bunny still makes me nervous)

It’s called ‘leporiphobia’, apparently.

 

[Kaninchen]

We don’t have to understand the mechanisms - or machinations - of the Church to understand that priorities have changed. The Church has every right to change its priorities, of course, but, for those of us who live in a world where being religious in any way whatsoever is something of a ‘minority sport’, one wonders at the sense of reality.

I wonder where he’ll eventually be made ‘Bishop of’ - that could be fun.

 

[Kaninchen]

My (German side) grandmother would have become apoplectic at the very idea of talking to Catholics at all.

 

[chosen_people]

Great! I’ve been very pleased by the Jewish reaction insofar as they’ve cut off relations with the Vatican. I see absolutely no use in constantly receiving the complaints of Jews, which is the only purpose such discussions serve.

Let’s have a schism. Catholics will go one way and Jews will go the other way. We won’t tell you what to believe, and you won’t tell us. This seems to me to be the ideal arrangement.

It’s not about what you believe about God or how you chose to worship. It’s about groups like the SSPX that spread and promulgate anti-semitism.

Now since the SSPX declares that the Jews undermine Christianity and since you have declared that you want to go your way and we will go our way and since we make up such a tiny infinitesimal one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population, and since the Jews have been allowed to be a contributing part of general society for only the last two hundred years, may I suggest that from now on you simply just steer clear of everything and anything that owes it existence to the Jews, that way you’ll be perfectly safe from us.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The man was excommunicated for religious reasons, not his political views.

I see no reason for the Jews to be acting up like this. The lifting of the excommunication is an internal religious issue regarding the Catholic faith, not a political declaration.

Let them complain, they’re gonna stop one day.

The SSPX in general, are problematic for the Jews and Roman Catholics as well.

I think it was a bad decision, much like some of his other decisions.

Jim

 

[Corki]

Anti-semitism against Jews is** not** an internal issue. There is no validity, factually or morally, to your point #2 above.

You are correct that antisemitism is not an internal issue. But the lifting of the excommunications had nothing to do with antisemitism. Zero, zip, nada. The excommunications were for disobedient acts and those are handled internally as a disciplinary issue. The fact that you don’t happen to like or agree with the person whose excommunication is irrelavent. In fact, the lifting of the excommunication is irrelavent to any other virtuous acts or sins the Bishop may be involved with.

They are separate issues. Unrelated. I just don’t see why this is so hard.

 

[chosen_people]

You are correct that antisemitism is not an internal issue. But the lifting of the excommunications had nothing to do with antisemitism. Zero, zip, nada. The excommunications were for disobedient acts and those are handled internally as a disciplinary issue. The fact that you don’t happen to like or agree with the person whose excommunication is irrelavent. In fact, the lifting of the excommunication is irrelavent to any other virtuous acts or sins the Bishop may be involved with.

They are separate issues. Unrelated. I just don’t see why this is so hard.

THE SSPX IS THE ESSESNCE OF TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC ANTI JEWISH ATTITUDES - THIS MAY BE SEPERATE TO YOU BUT IT IS NOT SEPERATE TO THE JEWS OR ANY GROUP OPPOSED TO ANTI- SEMITISM. NO ONE IS BUYING THAT ITS UNRELATED EXCEPT FOR THOSE CATHOLICS WHO JUST DON’T CARE ABOUT THE SSPX VIEW OF THE JEWS- NOW THAT WASN’T SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND WAS IT?

 

[Corki]

THE SSPX IS THE ESSESNCE OF TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC ANTI JEWISH ATTITUDES - THIS MAY BE SEPERATE TO YOU BUT IT IS NOT SEPERATE TO THE JEWS OR ANY GROUP OPPOSED TO ANTI- SEMITISM. NO ONE IS BUYING THAT ITS UNRELATED EXCEPT FOR THOSE CATHOLICS WHO JUST DON’T CARE ABOUT THE SSPX VIEW OF THE JEWS- NOW THAT WASN’T SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND WAS IT?

But you don’t get it (or chose not to).

This isn’t about the SSPX as a group. It isn’t about their beliefs or who they like or who likes them. It is about 4 and only 4 people and the disciplinary action of the Vatican regarding those 4 people.

You and other Jews who are trying to make this into something it is not, lose credibility.

THIS MAY BE SEPERATE TO YOU BUT IT IS NOT SEPERATE TO THE JEWS OR ANY GROUP OPPOSED TO ANTI- SEMITISM.

Well, it should not be an issue to Jews at all. It has nothing to do with them. Go, have your beef with the SSPX and with Bishop Williamson. Knock yourselves out. That’s not my problem or any of my business. And the Vatican’s action regarding the excommunications is, sorry to be blunt, but none of your business.

 

[Kaninchen]

You and other Jews who are trying to make this into something it is not, lose credibility.

With whom? In the context of whomsoever it is that finds our credibility in some way diminished, is it something we should be vaguely bothered about?

Well, it should not be an issue to Jews at all. It has nothing to do with them. Go, have your beef with the SSPX and with Bishop Williamson. Knock yourselves out. That’s not my problem or any of my business. And the Vatican’s action regarding the excommunications is, sorry to be blunt, but none of your business.

In the same way that our reactions are none of yours?

 

[MrDickerson]

Another bridge built by Pope John Paul II built, that Pope Benedict has burned.

God have mercy on us.

Jim

Thank God for Pope Benedict XVI. I hope he continues to undo some of the egregious mistakes launched under JP2’s disastrous pontificate. Rabbinic Judaism is one of many bridges to hell.

 

[MrDickerson]

That particular article, while it is on the SSPX website, was actually written by a Catholic priest in the 1940s or 50s; it would do everyone well if “Chosen People” quoted it in context though.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thank God for Pope Benedict XVI. I hope he continues to undo some of the egregious mistakes launched under JP2’s disastrous pontificate. Rabbinic Judaism is one of many bridges to hell.

Twenty years from now, well most likely be praying to Saint John Paul II. Can’t say the same for Pope Benedict.

Jim

 

[chosen_people]

Thank God for Pope Benedict XVI. I hope he continues to undo some of the egregious mistakes launched under JP2’s disastrous pontificate. Rabbinic Judaism is one of many bridges to hell.

Please elaborate