Chief Rabbinate of Israel break ties to Vatican

[JimR-OCDS]

pnewton

How many times have I heard posters like you warn traditionalists againts judging the Holy Father. You are not Pope Benedict’s authority. He is yours. Best remember that.

Put down your stones and go back and read the post I was responding to. The attack was against JP II.

Jim

 

[GodsGadfly]

I am trying very hard to take the charitable view that the Chief Rabbinate are people of fundamentally good will who simply do not know what they are talking about.

Whatever happened to original sin and concupiscence?

 

[bkovacs]

I is a Linky

Meh maybe this is best in the long run, while sad. I think the Holy Father is doing what is best for the Church and not for the love of the World.

This Rabbi should break his ties with the Eastern Orthodox Churches as well. Since they to are traditional.

 

[cathguy]

It was Israeli rabbis in this case.

Antisemitism isn’t a Jewish problem, it’s a non-Jewish problem - historically, we’ve just had to live with the consequences, it’s the consequences that are a Jewish problem.

What has been said is that it’s not possible, in the current circumstances, to hold a particular meeting - the reaction to this, I would suggest, is very revealing. Not holding a meeting has been transformed in the minds of non SSPX supporters, never mind SSPX supporters, into ‘Jewish demands’, ‘Jewish arrogance’ and so on - Catholics like yourself and many, many others who also find the remnants of historical prejudices a dreadful legacy, should find that instructive - as instructive as your conversations elsewhere with defenders of Williamson.

The Pope is bringing the SSPX back into the fold and it’s for Catholics to sort out - we just have to deal with the consequences. We don’t have to do that silently and with a gracious smile, however.

Of course you don’t have “do that silently etc.” You make excellent points.

HOWEVER, you want to deal the consequences effectively, even if you do so without being silent (you should never be silent) or a gracious smile (anger in this case is well justified).

Here is my argument:

It would have been MUCH better had the Rabbis not cancelled the meeting the Holy Father, but instead, put together a thorough report on the vicious lies Williamson has spread. They should have shown up the meeting with dossier in hand.

Apparently, the Holy Father’s advisors can’t even do a Google search. His PR department is a disgrace. This whole uproar should have been anticipated, and should have been addressed before hand if the SSPX excommunications were to be lifted.

Had the Rabbis shown up with a full and complete report and (even angrily) shared their concerns I think things would be much better for all of us.

Canceling the meeting on the other hand strikes faithful Catholics (not myself… I understand the Rabbi’s motivation… even if I disagree) as insulting and demeaning towards the Pope. If you want to battle anti-semitism, you want to do so effectively.

Just food for thought.

 

[chosen_people]

Of course you don’t have “do that silently etc.” You make excellent points.

HOWEVER, you want to deal the consequences effectively, even if you do so without being silent (you should never be silent) or a gracious smile (anger in this case is well justified).

Here is my argument:

It would have been MUCH better had the Rabbis not cancelled the meeting the Holy Father, but instead, put together a thorough report on the vicious lies Williamson has spread. They should have shown up the meeting with dossier in hand.

Apparently, the Holy Father’s advisors can’t even do a Google search. His PR department is a disgrace. This whole uproar should have been anticipated, and should have been addressed before hand if the SSPX excommunications were to be lifted.

Had the Rabbis shown up with a full and complete report and (even angrily) shared their concerns I think things would be much better for all of us.

Canceling the meeting on the other hand strikes faithful Catholics (not myself… I understand the Rabbi’s motivation… even if I disagree) as insulting and demeaning toward the Pope. If you want to battle anti-semitism, you want to do so effectively.

Just food for thought.

The SSPX hasn’t changed and worse they have been invited back without changing. The split with the Church because they could not stomach Vatican II reforms, not least of which the reforms of attitudes toward Jews. Through their website, through books and tapes and interviews they have promulgated the ideas of the Jew as guilty of deicide, the Jew as cursed for rejecting “god”, the Jew as seeking world domination, the Jew as contaminating and destroying Christianity. To the best of my knowledge there is not a single group that monitors anti-semitism that has not labeled the SSPX as virulently anti-semitic. The Pope as well as every other Catholic is perfectly well aware of SSPX attitudes. There is nothing surprising nor should anyone have been surprised about the holocaust denial. You should give credit to the Pope as being fully aware as to consequences of his actions on Catholic-Jewish relations and as willingly injuring those relations to bring the SSPX back into the Catholic fold.

 

[Grace_Angel]

The Jews have a concept not important to Christians and that is memory. Now when I say that you probably think of WWII, when a Jew thinks that he thinks everything that happened back to Egypt. They have a very good reason to be afraid of the Catholic church. Look what the church did to the Jews in Poland, France, Spain, Rome, Russia… ect ect. Even our Councils came out against them and said they should wear a mark. They have been attacked constantly throughout history by Christians, Pagans and Muslims. So yeah I think they have a right to be a little jumpy from a guy who was a nazi youth (yes he was forced) but I would still be a little afraid when he keeps pushing many things perceived by the Jews as dangerous to there health.

And personally Polaris I think you are a dangerous poster.
The Holy Father Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication rite over the Bishop because of Catholic thought and progress made along these lines. It had nothing to do with the Bishops private opinion over the Holocaust. The Holy Father does not have to answer the the Rabbinate of Israel or Rome or anywhere else. The Holy Father is “Peter” the holder of the keys of the Kingdom.
I think this is an excuse used by the Rabbinate, firstly because the Holy Father cautioned Israel over Gaza Strip and more importantly, the Rabbinate was looking for a reason because this Pope is German and he was in Hitler youth. They have been waiting for an excuse and sadly in their interpretation they have found one.
As I said the lifting of excomm8unication has nothing to do with the Bishops personal view of the holocaust. It had to do with SSPX.
This was an excuse. So be it.
I am for “Peter”. There is no other but “Peter”
GraceAngel.

 

[Kaninchen]

OHOWEVER, you want to deal the consequences effectively, even if you do so without being silent (you should never be silent) or a gracious smile (anger in this case is well justified).

After a nearly a decade and a half of internet conversations, I very, very rarely get even close to angry. Not only that, especially in the early non-moderated or loosely-moderated era, experience of Stormfronters and various other Neo-Nazis, Christian Identity believers, Holocaust Deniers and so on, has taught me that Jew-haters can’t be ‘rationalized with’ so quiet and cold contempt works best.

It would have been MUCH better had the Rabbis not cancelled the meeting the Holy Father, but instead, put together a thorough report on the vicious lies Williamson has spread. They should have shown up the meeting with dossier in hand.

The result in ‘internet world’ would still be ‘uproar!’. There would still be thread after thread of message boards and blogs with the ‘usual suspects’ saying the ‘usual things’ - as day follows night.

Apparently, the Holy Father’s advisors can’t even do a Google search. His PR department is a disgrace. This whole uproar should have been anticipated, and should have been addressed before hand if the SSPX excommunications were to be lifted.

The Vatican diplomatic corps is legendary and the current Pope is past-master of bureaucratic niceties. I find it unlikely that they were naive, they just made decisions about priorities.

 

[pnewton]

Apparently, the Holy Father’s advisors can’t even do a Google search. His PR department is a disgrace. This whole uproar should have been anticipated, and should have been addressed before hand if the SSPX excommunications were to be lifted.

I believe the Holy Father is aware of the axiom that by whatever manner we show mercy, so mercy shall be shown to us. Let us all be thankful that our confessors do not google us to see if it is politically correct for us to receive absolution.

 

[pnewton]

I find it unlikely that they were naive, they just made decisions about priorities.

Yes. And mercy and healing is the priority. The unfortunate tendancy of some to read into a simple act their own agenda can not be a barrier to reconcilliation.

 

[tzmike]

The Pope lifted the excommunication, but the bishop in question is still suspended from official duties.

The excommunication being lifted prevents the Bishop from going to hell (from being excommunicated) should he die.

Those outside the faith and/or anti-Catholics don’t understand this and try to spin this to make it look like the Pope was the one who changed his stance approves of denying the Holocaust.

The Pope was right in his actions. The chief Rabbi in Israel is wrong. The Pope is concerned for the well being of a repentant soul. The Rabbi doesn’t.

 

[chosen_people]

The Pope lifted the excommunication, but the bishop in question is still suspended from official duties.

The excommunication being lifted prevents the Bishop from going to hell (from being excommunicated) should he die.

Those outside the faith and/or anti-Catholics don’t understand this and try to spin this to make it look like the Pope was the one who changed his stance approves of denying the Holocaust.

The Pope was right in his actions. The chief Rabbi in Israel is wrong. The Pope is concerned for the well being of a repentant soul. The Rabbi doesn’t.

Now you don’t as a Catholic believe that such a hateful anti-semitic person like the Bishop is going to Hell but the Bishop, on the other hand, believes that all Jews are going there.

 

[pnewton]

Now you don’t as a Catholic believe that such a hateful anti-semitic person like the Bishop is going to Hell but the Bishop, on the other hand, believes that all Jews are going there.

As Catholics, we leave that judgement to God alone. Bishop Williamson spent a lot of his life outside of communion with the Catholic Church. He may or may not go to Hell, like anyone else.

 

[Lischou]

Perhaps the problem is that the only information they are getting about this situation is from the anti-Catholic media. After all, the “Pope pardons Holocaust denier” spin is the angle they all seem to be taking.

Hear! Hear! The voice of sanity!

The media spin a story? No way, not possible…they only report the facts (heavy sarcasm intended! ).

Lisa

 

[tzmike]

Now you don’t as a Catholic believe that such a hateful anti-semitic person like the Bishop is going to Hell but the Bishop, on the other hand, believes that all Jews are going there.

Don’t try to couch your statement in a false question. Only God knows who is going to hell. However the bishop in question is not a “hateful anti-semetic person” just because he doubted the number of jewish victims. Misinformed yes, but hatefull? And how do you know that he thinks all jews are going to hell? Sounds like YOU are anti-christian in general and anti-Catholic in particular!

The hateful person here is the Rabbi who tries to dictate to the Pope what he should and should not do.

 

[Valke2]

The hateful person here is the Rabbi who tries to dictate to the Pope what he should and should not do.

Ok. So let me get this straight. The bishop who states that not one jew was gassed to death and who recommends that we all read the elders of zion to better understand what kind of person the Jew is, he’s not hateful.

The rabbi who protests the act of the church welcoming this bishop back into the fold, he’s hateful.

Ok. Got it.

 

[tzmike]

Ok. So let me get this straight. The bishop who states that not one jew was gassed to death and who recommends that we all read the elders of zion to better understand what kind of person the Jew is, he’s not hateful.

The rabbi who protests the act of the church welcoming this bishop back into the fold, he’s hateful.

Ok. Got it.

According to the Rabbi it’s not enough that the bishop is suspended from his official duties. He still must be excommunicated, too, after repenting.Yes the Rabbi is hateful. I’m glad that you got it. Spelling things out can get tiresome.

 

[Kaninchen]

Canceling a meeting is just so, so hateful.

 

[tzmike]

Canceling a meeting is just so, so hateful.

When motivated by hate; yes.

 

[Kaninchen]

When motivated by hate; yes.

Naughty Jews, naughty, naughty Jews!

 

[Peccavi]

Whatever the arguments there are many anti-semites still within the European Catholic Church. How do I know ? I’ve met them, a good many of them over the years.
I have sympathy with the Rabbi who draws on historical experiences of Jewish history and doubts the sincerity of apologetic statements. It is not just the Chief Rabinate of Israel who is upset by this turn of events but also the Chancellor of Gemany and politicians of ALL paties (excepting the neo-fascists), the national press in the UK, France, Gemany and Italy. Now of course it is perfectly true that the Vatican can ignore these non-Catholic voices. The Vatican can, if it wishes, turn the church inward on itself; can shut itself off from the world. Pope John Paul II (whom I admired although finding him too conservative in his social theology ) was an outward looking Pope who so loved God’s World. In his last will and testament the only peson he mentions by name was the Rabbi of Rome with whom he hade made friends. As a Pole, Pope John Paul II saw the holocaust unfold in his native land. Auschwitz is near to Krakow where he bishop. Over one million Jews died in Auschwitz alone (most in 1944). Pope John Paul would not let these anti-semities back into the church on his watch. He recognised them for what they were.
Pope Benedict’s action ( however innocently motivated) has given succor to the anti-semites among Catholics and once again linked the Church with the unsavory views of the European rectionary right. As a catholic (note the small c ) socialist I am unable to defend the Vatican. I am with the Rabbi in this matter. I am with Pope John Paul.