Child shacking up

[otm]

katy:

I know this, you know this, he doesn’t think it applies to him. sigh

Yes, I know.

Somehow, when the hormones start running full course, they succeed in putting a damper on the synapses, particularly those associated with moral behavior.

I don’t know if you have the ability to sit him down, get his attention, and speak really plain, painful English. Or perhaps you know of someone else whom he respects, who can do so. But about the only way you (or someone else) will get through is to be able to cut through all the BS and speak really plain English.

It most often does little good to talk about the fact that this is a serious sin and he could go to Hell; he already knows that much and it hasn’t made much impact; either he doesn’t really believe it, or is choosing to ignore it.

What might make some impact is the “why”. He is lying to himself about the “saving money” bit; that is the moral equivalent of telling a woman that the child she is carrying is going to be moderately to severly retarded, and “her life may be in danger carrying it to term”. It is just a sop for the conscience, not anything to do with reality.

Sorry that I do not have sources, but there are plenty out there showing the failure rate of marriages where the couple is having intercourse prior to marriage. Not sure if there are accurate statistics as to how many “engaged or about to be engaged” couples break up without getting married, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence. Why get married, why make the committment when you already have what you want - someone to cook, clean, do your laundry and have intercourse with you?

Plain English does stand the risk of driving him out of the Church; however, he is practically out (and if attending Mass, lying to himself) anyway. There is always the risk that he will use the lecture to blame the Church and excuse in the future why he won’t go back. Tough call to make; but whatever you do, remember he is an adult and is making the choice, and is responsible for the choice he makes.

 

[EtienneGilson]

Whoever called him immoral is simply ignorant. I am certain that you have raised a decent son who has a profound yet different moral system than your own. Given the society of today, I am rather certain that your son likely believes he is actually doing the logical and moral thing.

You will be hardpressed to persuade an agnostic of the sacramental nature of marriage. Heck, Catholics have a hard enough time convincing protestants of it! From his agnostic point of view he is likely doing nothing extraordinary or wrong.

Pray for him, be supportive of his decisions and get him to reflect on what he thinks the nature of marriage is. Wasn’t it Chesterton who complained that in his day everyone believed in soulmates but no one believed in souls? Maybe through reflection he will come to appreciate your point of view, even if not fully agreeing with it. That will leave a sense of mutual respect in the relationship and leave the doors open in the future.

 

[buffalo]

Make sure he understands you will not give him your blessing in this arrangement. You will not approve in any circumstances them shacking up. Hold your ground, no matter his justification.

 

[setter]

mikew262:

You might pay for that attitude for a long time to come, if you went through with that. Is it worth the bad and hurt feelings that might come, just to prove a point? Giving your daughter away in marriage, to include having a fine send off, is one of life’s most cherished moments as a parent of a daughter. I’ve done it twice, and to not be a part of that would be crushing.

Please rethink this!!

I see it not as proving a point, but standing with the truth in fortitude and integrity. Nobody is being denied a grand wedding, but as a consequence of this child’s choice which a parent cannot condone, will not give the impression of rewarding immoral behavior.

 

[maryceleste]

EtienneGilson:

Whoever called him immoral is simply ignorant. I am certain that you have raised a decent son who has a profound yet different moral system than your own.

I’m not sure why you’re so certain, based on what little information you’ve been given. Or do you honestly believe that all unmarried couples who choose to move in together, are doing so for “profound” reasons?

Speaking as someone who was away from the Church during most of my teens and twenties, and was living in an area where cohabitation was socially acceptable, I saw a great deal of this behavior in my social circle. There was nothing particularly deep about it. The reasoning usually went something like this:

“We’re already spending the night together half the time anyway… so, wouldn’t it be cheaper and more convenient for us to move in together?”

Pray for him, be supportive of his decisions and get him to reflect on what he thinks the nature of marriage is.

Prayer and reflection are wonderful things… and, of course, this mother will continue to love and care for her son as a person. She can’t morally support this decision, though – so, as “buffalo” has said, she can’t do anything that would give the impression of endorsing or enabling his living situation. For instance: helping him with the move, sending cards addressed to the two of them, letting them sleep in the same room in the parents’ home, etc. Not that I think the OP plans to do any of these things – but I’ve seen other Catholic parents do all of them, and more, in the name of being “supportive.”

How on earth can such parents expect their children to “come around” and start respecting the faith, when the parents are demonstrating such little respect for it themselves?

 

[mikew262]

setter:

I see it not as proving a point, but standing with the truth in fortitude and integrity. Nobody is being denied a grand wedding, but as a consequence of this child’s choice which a parent cannot condone, will not give the impression of rewarding immoral behavior.

Easy to say; correct in theory. Have any daughters?

 

[setter]

mikew262:

Easy to say; correct in theory. Have any daughters?

What message is a faithful Catholic parent sending to an unrepentant to the wedding day daughter (son) by throwing a grand wedding after persisted in defiantly living a scandalous lifestyle? Let alone the affront and disrespect shown to the parent’s espoused Catholic values?

Are you suggesting that one has to be a parent to not understand this?

 

[mikew262]

setter:

What message is a faithful Catholic parent sending to an unrepentant to the wedding day daughter (son) by throwing a grand wedding after persisted in defiantly living a scandalous lifestyle? Let alone the affront and disrespect shown to the parent’s espoused Catholic values?

Are you suggesting that one has to be a parent to not understand this?

I’ll assume you are dodging my question.

 

[setter]

mikew262:

I’ll assume you are dodging my question.

I know, I know, you put primacy on *subjective personal experience * for determination of what is moral, immoral, appropriate, inappropriate. Correct?

 

[mikew262]

setter:

I know, I know, you put primacy on *subjective personal experience * for determination of what is moral, immoral, appropriate, inappropriate. Correct?

I asked if you had a daughter. Period. What you want to read into that question is your business.

 

[Writer]

katy:

OK, my son is engaged and that is great. The girl is lovely and the son is a great guy. However, he has decided he no longer wants to deal with God and “Catholic stuff” and is planning to have the girl move in with him to save on expenses until they arrange to get married.
I was devastated by the agnostic shift, since he was the most spiritual one as a child, and now I have to deal with this. He is 26 and a kind, self-sufficient adult. I love him dearly and could use some advice on how to respond to this without selling out God or being self-righteous. I’m fairly sure that he is not going to change his mind due to anything I say.

On the very simplest level, it changes the nature of the relationship to that of roommates, which is about as far as one can get from true marriage. It definitely sets the wrong spiritual tone in the relationship.

 

[maryceleste]

mikew262:

Easy to say; correct in theory. Have any daughters?

For what it’s worth, I do have a daughter, and I think “setter” has a point. These days, plenty of engaged couples choose to plan and finance their own weddings, whether big or small. I realize that it’s customary in many families for the bride’s family to put on the wedding, but, if the couple have decided to thumb their noses at some of their family’s customs, they can’t expect to reap the benefits of others. (To put it another way: The reason for the party, wedding gifts, etc., is for the family and friends to “see the couple off” and “help them get started.” The couple who are living together have already made a public display of “taking off on their own” and “helping themselves.”)

Or are you suggesting that the father might feel he has to put on a big wedding because of pressure from his wife, parents, in-laws, etc.? I can see that it would be difficult to stand up to those kinds of expectations. I’ve seen enough Hollywood movies to know that thwarted relatives can get pretty nasty.

 

[mikew262]

maryceleste:

For what it’s worth, I do have a daughter, and I think “setter” has a point. These days, plenty of engaged couples choose to plan and finance their own weddings, whether big or small. I realize that it’s customary in many families for the bride’s family to put on the wedding, but, if the couple have decided to thumb their noses at some of their family’s customs, they can’t expect to reap the benefits of others. (To put it another way: The reason for the party, wedding gifts, etc., is for the family and friends to “see the couple off” and “help them get started.” The couple who are living together have already made a public display of “taking off on their own” and “helping themselves.”)

Or are you suggesting that the father might feel he has to put on a big wedding because of pressure from his wife, parents, in-laws, etc.? I can see that it would be difficult to stand up to those kinds of expectations. I’ve seen enough Hollywood movies to know that thwarted relatives can get pretty nasty.

I understand your point and in theory I have no argument against it. While living together is against what the church teaches, like it or not, it’s not as taboo (society wise) as it used to be. One has to weigh what you may gain versus what you may lose, if you stubbornly refuse to give your daughter a wedding if she has been living with the person she loves. You may win the battle on “sticking to your guns” concerning what the church officially teaches; however what harm have you done in your relationship with your daughter. Not to mention, what you as a parent have missed out on. Those moments are lost forever.

You have a daughter, so you have some perspective. It’s easy to pontificate and take the moral high ground when you have nothing to lose like some folks tend to do.

If your child is a full blown adult, they can make whatever decision they want, all you can do is advise. It may be the wrong one, but as parents we should love our kids no matter what decisions they make. Refusing to be an active part of one of the most important events of their lives, isn’t showing much love to me.

 

[Island_Oak]

I would approach him as you would another adult friend–over whom you have no control but for whom you have great respect, affection and concern. Make sure he knows you are broaching this subject out of love and respect–because you want the very best for him and his fiancee.

---

Using the advantage of the experience you have, that he does not, I would humbly suggest that the wonder and gift of married life is impossible for him to appreciate before he receives the sacrament. I would further emphasize that nothing as fleeting and inconsequential as whatever financial benefits they think will be served by living together should be allowed to cheapen this wonderful, magical, once-in-a-lifetime experience. Make sure he knows that you’re not telling him what to do–just hoping he’s wise enough to recognize the truth of your message and purpose and benefit from your experience. Finally-make sure he knows you love him no matter what he decides and will pray for him as he discerns how to manage this situation.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

puzzleannie:

he is 26, you are out of it mom, he is now free to be an idiot any way he chooses. Your job is to pray, there is nothing you can do about it. Consider Mary at the foot of the cross and her helplessness as you pray for him during the years it will take for him to get some sense knocked back into him.

living together to save expenses is a fallacy used to justify fornication and unfortunately dim-witted families actually encourage it. If you are ready to move in together you are ready to get married, so do it. There is no reason to delay. If there is some reason not to get married right now, there is absolutely no reason or justification for moving in together, financial or otherwise. Get a roommate to share expenses or move back home. Wise parents will charge rent so that option does not become too attractive.

No reason why a 26 yr old man is not ready for marriage unless he is so consumed by selfishness he sees this woman only as a sexual object. Since that is the overwhelming value of our culture, it would not be surprising if he did think this way.

Parents, do not do anything to encourage or enable this behavior, which for one thing virtually guarantees this couple will have damaged their relationship, perhaps irreparably, from the beginning. My rant is not directed against OP’s son, but the children in my own family who have chosen similar paths, with bitter predictable results.

Was about to say it myself, but you did it so much better than I did, Annie.

I would only add that there is a big emphasis on huge ta-do weddings that take years to plan. While they are lovely, and provide video and photo ops that rival celebs all over the world, they are…unnecessary. Six to nine months is more than enough time to get the show on the matrimonial road.

I know of no diocese that permits less than six months to prepare (spiritually, that is), but if the young man says he’s no longer Catholic, flights to Vegas and Reno are cheap. It’s also very easy to get civilly married in New Jersey, Illinois, Texas and Florida. If they want something bigger, let them spring for Lee n’Eddie’s or its equivalent and a judge in the living room or backyard. But Puzzleannie is right- the expense thing is bogus.

I feel for you, Katy, have been there myself, and I can only say pray, and I will add my prayers to yours.

 

[contemplative]

mikew262:

Refusing to be an active part of one of the most important events of their lives, isn’t showing much love to me.

No one is refusing to be an active part in the important Sacrament of Marriage.

The pre-marriage/shacked couple gets to be married in the Church…Good thing.

The parents get invited to the wedding…and they go…good thing.

Dad gives daughter away at altar…good thing.

Everyone goes to party that newlyweds planned and payed for…good thing.

So you see…nice, nice, nice.

There is no law requiring parents to cough up money to pay for a wedding…under any circumstance. A wedding party may be ( not must be ) a gift parents give… No parent should feel obligated.

I think that any self-respecting good parent will not kowtow to the wishes of their children and buy them a big wedding for fear they might lose the love, attention and presence of their children. This kind of parent is simply trying to buy their kids’ friendship and love.

It is helpful if parents forwarn children. Don’t wait till the situation is already at hand. This is what I’ve done…I say…“watch out…I know your peers are doing this but you better not if you want the whole kit and kaboodle someday from your parents.”

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

mikew262:

Easy to say; correct in theory. Have any daughters?

Yep, and had to put my money where my mouth was.

They eloped. We said, “Meet the (extended) family at D’Agostino’s on bla-bla night.”

Well, it wasn’t Wednesday “Buy One Get One Free Night”.

 

[contemplative]

otm:

Yes, I know.

Somehow, when the hormones start running full course, they succeed in putting a damper on the synapses, particularly those associated with moral behavior.

.

I don’t think it has as much to do with wild hormones as irresponsibility, poor choices, laziness and lack of good direction.

It is easier for young adults to shack together than date the old-fashioned way.

 

[katy]

maryceleste:

“We’re already spending the night together half the time anyway… so, wouldn’t it be cheaper and more convenient for us to move in together?”

As a matter of fact, this is almost a direct quote. He does, however, think he has profound understanding as he studied philosophy as well as his regular major in college. He is under the impression that he has outgrown Christianity, particularly Catholicism. Rigid, out of date, unsophisticated, out of touch, naive, uptight, ad nauseum.
Unfortunately, we have relatives who were “at Woodstock” who encourage and abet this kind of thinking. I look rather stodgy by comparison. At this point, that is all he seems to see. Nice Mommy, but irrelevant. The bunch at the coffeehouse knows sooo much more. Oy.

 

[otm]

EtienneGilson:

Whoever called him immoral is simply ignorant. I am certain that you have raised a decent son who has a profound yet different moral system than your own. Given the society of today, I am rather certain that your son likely believes he is actually doing the logical and moral thing.

Ignorant my eye. I am the one that said it, and I will stand by what I have said.

Within 10 years of the start of “no fault” divorce, divorces started to shoot through the roof. That was about the same timing for the “sexual revolution” that took place. Given that the large majority of first divorces occur between the 5 and 10 year period, there certainly is evidence that a lot of people who went through (and applied the tennats of) the sexual revolution were getting divorced in droves; and the statistics haven’t varied much since then. There is a large and growing body of evidence in the area of sociology that is pointing to pre marital sexual activity as a clear indicator of future problems in marriage.

Further, I have a very good BS indicator (I can smell a pile of it for what it is). He believes he is doing the moral thing? Give me a break! He is thinking with his hormones and looking for any excuse for the fact that he wants to get free sex.

The only “moral” system that permits such activity is one that is based on relativism, which in its most simple terms says that “I can do anything I want as long as I don’t “hurt” anyone. We “love” each other. It’s ok because we are consenting adults.”

The only problem with that is that it always comes before the carnage. And then what do they say? “We weren’t “meant” for each other”.

It is not immoral? Then do a little research and tell me why you find so many women non-virgins who are hurt not once, but by a series of men; why they have become so cynical about men and marriage; and why they keep repeating the same behavior hoping the next one really will follow up with that promise of marriage.

Then do a little more research of the couples who slept together before marriage and get a divorce, and ask them if they had the chance to do it all over, if they would have forgone foreknowledge.

Then do a little more research and ask the ones that have been able to survive the 10 year period, and ask them the same question.

With the pain, the build up of cynicism, the high rate of divorce, the unhappy marriages, the women who have been conned into the Pill because that is how they are supposed to take care of any “accidents” (we call them children); the abortions, the women in marriage that have anything but a happy sex life, feeling that they are to be on call sexually for a person they are not convinced respects them, and tell me that the Church has no wisdom in calling that a sin.

Ignorant? No, I happen to have studied it a bit deeper than you seem to have bothered with. The more I see, and the more I hear, and the more I read - not from the Church but from the world - the more I am convinced of the wisdom of the Church, which is also known as the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

Now sociology calls it hazardous, and the Church all along has called it immoral. and you think I’m ignorant?