China owes ‘apology and compensation’ for coronavirus, says cardinal

[otjm]

It’s fascinating to see so many constantly gloss over the fact the wet markets in China bring together animals out of their natural environments from around the world and have them abused (suppresses immune systems) and then have them slaughtered in a crowded place with the blood aerosolised increases the chances of viruses moving onto humans.

I have had personal experience of the open markets when I was in Vietnam. It is not that I doubt the virus came from animals; it is more that I question whether or not China had isolated the virus well before the pandemic started. I also have my doubts we will ever know one way or the other; a lot of people have wanted to take everything we have been told at face value, as if the information system in China is not regulated to the nth degree. How many reporters have been evicted in the last few weeks? Just about anyone who could ask inconvenient questions.

However, what we do know is that BW works exceedingly well, even if this is not a BW consideration.

All of which shows that we are getting first-hand experience with 6 degrees of separation.

 

[otjm]

How about the naval bases China is building to enforce the nine dash rule, quite a hefty chunk of the South China Sea, which, in spite of its name, is mostly international waters.

And given that part of the argument is between Vietnam and China over the Spratly Islands, we come full circle on that old bromide of diplomacy: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

As much as Vietnam relied on China for material, equipment and advisers during our fracas, little love has been lost between the two countries. Between 1979 and 1991 there were 7 military clashes.two; China at one point worked with the Hmong to wage unconventional warfare (copying our work).

 

[VonDerTann]

Sorry if I misunderstood. Yes,
“…interesting” is actually a very good way to put it.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

Why are we making the western media our main source of [dis]information?

I would say that UK broadcast media sources (e.g. the BBC and Sky News) are among the most reliable in the world because they are stringently regulated to be accurate and free from bias. Taken as a whole, I think we can be confident that the media in western countries reports accurately. There are individual sources that I would not trust, but I think that overall we get as accurate a picture as possible. We also have excellent fact-checking organizations such as Snopes and Full Fact. Certainly I think that our media is more trustworthy than the media in countries such as China, Russia, and Iran.

 

[TK421]

BBC is historically massively biased towards issues like Ireland, Brexit, and other sensitive points.

 

[MamaJewel]

The point of my post, mama jewel, is that China lies frequently, and is lying about their death toll. Nothing about your post really refutes that.

And, neither you nor I can prove if they are or are not lying about the death toll. Wouldn’t surprise me if every nation on this earth’s numbers were not reflective of the truth of Covid19 infection. Oh, wait, the numbers don’t anywhere reflect the truth of the impacts of this pandemic because science and medicine do not have a mechanism in place to test a large enough sample of the global human population over time to even derive the truth.

Unfortunately you are doing what some others are doing elsewhere on this board, throwing around claims that “compared to the total population covid isn’t too bad.”

Those statements come perilously close to Joe Stalin saying that the death of a million men was a statistic.

Hold the phone.
You accuse me of something that I am not implying at all.
I just recently posted on social media that 1 death is too many, so stop the false accusations toward me.
Factually, if 100, 000 cell phones are disconnected, and there are 11.5 million people residing in Wuhan, then that is a little less than 1%.
Prove to me those cell phone numbers belonged to people that perished due to Covid19.
Heck, we’re talking about a communist government. For all we know, those 100, 000 cell phones could have belonged to individuals that never got sick from Covid19, even though their immediate members died from it. Those 100, 000 cells phones could very well be owned by individuals who are now living guinea pigs under study in secure research labs throughout China.

I have no love for communism, nor unbridled capitalism, because both systems ultimately use human beings as a means to an end.

Now, let me ask you: the Chinese government claims they have had less deaths so far of covid than has the US.

I don’t know what the Chinese govt numbers are. I don’t know what the short-term and long -term impacts of the infection are on survivors or those asymptomatic of the illness. I assume a level of propaganda from the Chinese and any government. However, the way China suited up it’s frontline first responders, police, and health care workers told me way back at the beginning of December that the world has problems. It’s tragic, to say the least.

I also won’t ever know what the real numbers are for the US either, because we have so ineptly prepared for this pandemic that we have people in makeshift morgues.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Like every other communist regime that has ever existed, China has an extremely strong motive to make itself look good

That goes for non-communist regimes as well.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Also the sentences like “I thought Cardinals were meant to stay out of politics. What has this to do with his pastoral role?” only confirm your position towards the role of Catholic Church. It has to do everything with the pastoral role! The Cardinal is the bearer of the Good News and the pastor of God’s people. How could he remain aware of the lies and conceal them? If you have insight into truth, it’s a crime to protect the lies! Especially when he was at the center of events…

Cardinals can weigh in to political debates like everyone else. But when they do, their words are their opinion like everyone else. Faithful Catholics need not agree with them.

 

[Randolph]

Cardinals can weigh in to political debates like everyone else. But when they do, their words are their opinion like everyone else. Faithful Catholics need not agree with them

This is a point where I agree with you. This applies not to just Cardinals. This includes all bishops and even popes. In the end, people can believe whatever they want. But merit, common sense and truth must be allowed to run their course.

 

[VonDerTann]

Yeah, but since the record of communist countries is so atrociously bad, communist nations are much more likely to lie and make themselves look better (because the truth is so awful).

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Yeah, but since the record of communist countries is so atrociously bad, communist nations are much more likely to lie and make themselves look better

That would be so much more convincing if you could actually prove it rather than just speculate that it is true.

 

[ATraveller]

That goes for non-communist regimes as well.

But unlike communist (and other authoritarian) regimes, the public can vote them out. And unlike authoritarian regimes, there are independent officials who investigate and audit what the government does. Authoritarian regimes arrest whistleblowers and journalists.

It’s the cover-up that angers people the most and then spreading lies like the US army brought the virus to Wuhan and Italy had the virus before Wuhan. This is why people are even angrier. Had America covered up like the communist regime, the world would be just as angry at America.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

But unlike communist (and other authoritarian) regimes, the public can vote them out.

All the more reason for a non-authoritarian nation to cover-up misdeeds - too much risk of being voted out if the truth is allowed to get out.

And unlike authoritarian regimes, there are independent officials who investigate and audit what the government does. Authoritarian regimes arrest whistleblowers and journalists.

And non-authoritarian regimes denigrated journalists, refuse to answer their questions, and fire whistleblowers and those who bring whistleblower reports to Congress.

 

[VonDerTann]

Are you really arguing that communist nations have a good track record when it comes to human rights generally and truthful reporting of what happens inside their borders?

If you’re asking me to prove they have bad records, I’d say that the record of Lenin; Joseph Stalin; Chairman Mao; Fidel Castro; and Kim Il Sung in North Korea (and their supporters; thinks Che Guevara, etc.); as murderers of very large numbers of people is beyond reasonable question.

 

[ATraveller]

All the more reason for a non-authoritarian nation to cover-up misdeeds - too much risk of being voted out if the truth is allowed to get out.

And guess what, they do get voted out.

And non-authoritarian regimes denigrated journalists, refuse to answer their questions, and fire whistleblowers and those who bring whistleblower reports to Congress.

OK, so like every other non-American topic it must wind up being about Trump. Well, the idea that America’s own failings are somehow going to discredit non-authoritarian governments elsewhere is not really going to be taken seriously by the rest of us in the world.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Are you really arguing that communist nations have a good track record when it comes to human rights generally and truthful reporting of what happens inside their borders?

No, try not to change my argument.

If you’re asking me to prove they have bad records, I’d say…

No need to prove it. I know communist regimes have been and continue to do horrible things to their people. I was only talking about covering up misdeeds. Every nation, good or bad, does it to the extent they can get away with it. Name one nation that willingly came forth and announced to the world “Sorry, we messed up big time!”

 

[LeafByNiggle]

OK, so like every other non-American topic it must wind up being about Trump.

Did I mention Trump? I don’t think I mentioned Trump. Maybe you have TDS, seeing Trump everywhere.

 

[ATraveller]

Did I mention Trump? I don’t think I mentioned Trump. Maybe you have TDS, seeing Trump everywhere.

Maybe I do. After all, I’ve seen his “briefings”, where he blabs on about ratings.
But you wrote:

And non-authoritarian regimes denigrated journalists, refuse to answer their questions, and fire whistleblowers and those who bring whistleblower reports to Congress.

What or who could you be alluding to? Not Commonwealth realms or most European countries as we have parliaments not congresses, which function very differently and aren’t just different names for the same thing.

 

[VonDerTann]

The US does it all the time, if not by the government itself then by its watchdog namely an independent free press.
That was before the press became an arm of the Democratic Party.

If what you’re looking for is examples where a government admits it fouled up, the US certainly admitted things like the My Lai massacre and the governments role in the space shuttle challenger disaster. This compares to communist coverups of the Chernobyl disaster and the USSR’s failed N-1 moon rocket program (which was not even admitted to exist for many years).

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The US does it all the time, if not by the government itself then by its watchdog namely an independent free press.
That was before the press became an arm of the Democratic Party.

If what you’re looking for is examples where a government admits it fouled up, the US certainly admitted things like the My Lai massacre and the governments role in the space shuttle challenger disaster.

I’ll pass on the trolling remarks at the top. But the My Lai massacre was covered up by the US Army, until it got out by the press, and then they had no choice but to come clean. And the Challenger disaster was admitted because the culture of NASA (not the government in general, but just NASA) is more transparent. If it was totally a US military operation instead of a NASA operation, it also would have been covered up for a while. Even China had to admit what happened after the truth got out and could not be covered up any more.