China owes ‘apology and compensation’ for coronavirus, says cardinal

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That comment that the virus was brought to China by US Military is… interesting.

I have seen repeated reports that there was a biological lab within close proximity to the open market. There have been statements implying that the Chinese either have not signed on to any agreement to not engage in biological warfare research, or if they have signed on, they have not complied.

Assuming for the moment that it did not come from the market, the next question is how did it get released.

No matter that the government is Communist, they are not fools; assuming it was a lab specimen, the most likely scenario is that it was accidental.

And given the degree to which the government controls everything within reach, the local government would have known or suspected the source; they appear to have gone into panic mode until Beijing stepped in and put a lockdown in place.

There is little benefit to the government of China in admitting any of that scenario; and as they try to control all information, no reason to think they would be forthcoming in real world numbers, whether it was a natural transfer from animals or otherwise.

Nor am I convinced that we will ever hear the real story if it is different from a natural transmission. What benefit would anyone else have to releasing such a story if it was not natural transmission? The possible ramifications by a multitude of countries could push China into an untenable corner - not good for world stability.

There is a fair amount of chatter about instability and rioting within China. The phrase “better the enemy you know than the one you don’'t know” comes to mind. An overthrow of the current regime could lead to replacement with hotheads, and that bodes no good at all.
 
Randolph said:
This has everything to do with his responsibility of a bishop. So far, tens of thousands human lives have been lost and people have lost their jobs and their homes… All economies in the world have been greatly damaged. People are dealing with anxiety, sorrow, and grief. By the time this is over, hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of lives will be lost.
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I just read up to this point but there’s no need to read any further because this perfectly sums up what I said in other threads. Whether it be what to call the virus or what punishment should be inflicted on China my feeling is whatever punishment they have coming to them they deserve more.
 
@AlbMagno

The cardinal’s primary concern - which should also be our primary concern - are vulnerable people that have limited ability to cope with the impact of the virus. Wealthier countries will manage much better than developing countries, such as Myanmar where the cardinal is located.
 
otjm said:
That comment that the virus was brought to China by US Military is… interesting.
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Yes, its kind of like a guy watching police inspect a dead body while yelling “I’m not the one who killed her!”
otjm said:
I have seen repeated reports that there was a biological lab within close proximity to the open market.
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Only grade 4 weapons lab in the country is within a stones throw of the open market. Coincidence?
otjm said:
No matter that the government is Communist, they are not fools; assuming it was a lab specimen, the most likely scenario is that it was accidental.
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Accidental release and intentionally made is most likely. The nucleotide sequence contains AIDS and SARS sequences and a 2008 research paper discussing the sequence noted that adding AIDS to SARS increased the infection rate in humans. The sequence also has a cleavage site between two proteins (S1 and S2) that fold to make the spike protein that can only be cleaved by a human protein.
ABSTRACT: Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by the SARS-associated coronavirus (SARS-CoV), which uses angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) as its receptor for cell entry. A group of SARS-like CoVs (SL-CoVs) has been identified in horseshoe bats. SL-CoVs and SARS-CoVs share identical genome organizations and high sequence identities, with the main exception of the N terminus of the spike protein (S), known to be responsible for receptor binding in CoVs. In this study, we investigated the receptor usage of the SL-CoV S by combining a human immunodeficiency virus-based pseudovirus system with cell lines expressing the ACE2 molecules of human, civet, or horseshoe bat. In addition to full-length S of SL-CoV and SARS-CoV, a series of S chimeras was constructed by inserting different sequences of the SARS-CoV S into the SL-CoV S backbone. Several important observations were made from this study. First, the SL-CoV S was unable to use any of the three ACE2 molecules as its receptor. Second, the SARS-CoV S failed to enter cells expressing the bat ACE2. Third, the chimeric S covering the previously defined receptor-binding domain gained its ability to enter cells via human ACE2, albeit with different efficiencies for different constructs. Fourth, a minimal insert region (amino acids 310 to 518) was found to be sufficient to convert the SL-CoV S from non-ACE2 binding to human ACE2 binding, indicating that the SL-CoV S is largely compatible with SARS-CoV S protein both in structure and in function. The significance of these findings in relation to virus origin, virus recombination, and host switching is discussed.
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Otjm, I am not claiming the virus was brought to China by the US. I am saying China is telling its own people that - because they are.

Look, articles are starting to appear suggesting that the Chinese are planning a shooting war with the US. A “Blame the imperialists” campaign is something China would surely do if they planned one, just as the nazis claimed in 1939 that they attacked Poland because of a (nonexistent)
Polish “first strike” on Germany.
 
VonDerTann said:
Otjm, I am not claiming the virus was brought to China by the US. I am saying China is telling its own people that - because they are.
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NO i think they were replying to my post pointing out China conceding the virus is man-made.
 
(Referencing: The Federalist, National Review, Time Magazine, Business Insider and 60-minute Australia…)
Jbrady said:
None of those sources is nowhere near as reliable in the fields of science and medicine as the Lancet or Johns Hopkins. They just regurgitate what the read, or often enough what they think they read, in peer-reviewed sources, often with their own spin added.
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Agreed. Meanwhile, the people who can actually do something about covid-19, work on.

The Novel Coronavirus Outbreak: What We Know and What We Don’t​

Published:February 19, 2020

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30171-9
TK421 said:
You are putting a level of trust in their data that they themselves would deny. If you asked them, I am positive they would tell you that they are a data collector and that their data needs to be further verified and interpreted. That’s just basic stuff.
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Look through this thread. Does anyone really care about whether truth leads to the end of the pandemic. Does anyone read what scientists are doing. Little was known at the end of December, yet that little was reported to WHO. And work went on, testing this hypothesis, and that. Scientists say it was with remarkable speed that the virus was mapped mid February. Does anybody really care except to complain that it’s China’s fault that our community is infected. We’re on the same boat, as Pope Francis said last week. Read the reports! Pay less attention to clicks on tabloids. The link also says it is the wealthier countries most able to contain NOW, and support work to get a vaccine before the virus spreads to poorest nations, like the Bishop’s and like Africa. Casting stones, anyone?
 
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It’s fascinating to see so many constantly gloss over the fact the wet markets in China bring together animals out of their natural environments from around the world and have them abused (suppresses immune systems) and then have them slaughtered in a crowded place with the blood aerosolised increases the chances of viruses moving onto humans.
Listen to experts they say. Well, not those experts because they’re critical of the communist regime.





https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/4416787
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2010.0510


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30076-1/fulltext
 
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That’s true, I didn’t think of it that way. That’s a much better reason than the “anti-China crusade”.
 
Aquinas11 said:
Accidental release and intentionally made is most likely. The nucleotide sequence contains AIDS and SARS sequences and a 2008 research paper discussing the sequence noted that adding AIDS to SARS increased the infection rate in humans. The sequence also has a cleavage site between two proteins (S1 and S2) that fold to make the spike protein that can only be cleaved by a human protein.
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The virus is not human-made. The paper you cited has nothing to do with AIDS. HIV was used to make comparisons.
And “insert” doesn’t automatically mean humans are inserting genes especially when it’s “insert region”. An insert region is a region of vulnerability for mutations.
Such viruses can already mutate on their own. No need for humans to make them dangerous for humans.

The whole engineered virus narrative is just as bad as wet markets didn’t increase the risks of such pandemics narrative.

By the way, other places are in the same situation as China (wet markets, wildlife trade) as I’ve mentioned in my first reply in this thread. The difference is China has the funds and force to change things quickly.
 
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Crocus said:
(Referencing: The Federalist, National Review, Time Magazine, Business Insider and 60-minute Australia…)
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You can believe whatever you want. Do you actually trust that there has only been around 3,326 deaths in China so far? If this is what the Lancet has been reporting, they are wrong—irrespective of their reputation.
 
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Crocus said:
Look through this thread. Does anyone really care about whether truth leads to the end of the pandemic. Does anyone read what scientists are doing. Little was known at the end of December, yet that little was reported to WHO. And work went on, testing this hypothesis, and that. Scientists say it was with remarkable speed that the virus was mapped mid February. Does anybody really care except to complain that it’s China’s fault that our community is infected. We’re on the same boat, as Pope Francis said last week. Read the reports! Pay less attention to clicks on tabloids. The link also says it is the wealthier countries most able to contain NOW, and support work to get a vaccine before the virus spreads to poorest nations, like the Bishop’s and like Africa. Casting stones, anyone?
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I can’t control what other people say in this thread. I can only control what I say.

It has nothing to do with casting stones or making China “hurt” for what they’ve done. The fact is, when it comes to human health, China is worse off right now than when the coronavirus was rampant because health complications related to pollution kill an estimated 1-2 million Chinese every year and cut down their life expectancy, among many other things that could have been better solved in a more transparent society. There is no getting even or any point to getting even. China is controlled by an authoritarian communist regime and therefore it is its own abuser and its own victim. Cardinal Po Muang makes it clear that the first victim of the PRC are the people of China.

But the second victim is now the rest of the world, because government suppression from an authoritarian regime concerned with its image enabled the spread of the virus. It is also increasingly evident that the WHO is - regrettably - morally compromised from Chinese interest. By far the worst victim will be parts of the world with delicate healthcare systems.
 
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Randolph said:
You can believe whatever you want. Do you actually trust that there has only been around 2,263 deaths in China so far? If this is what the Lancet has been reporting, they are wrong—irrespective of their reputation.
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Typo in your post, screenshot shows 3,326. 🙂

Good question. But in the end, low in final importance as solution, to the real blossoming problem threatening the rest of the world. As a data point, it has little effect on anything, other than perhaps pride, ego. I tend to believe the numbers, as much as I believe brutal containment efforts. One might see the two as companions.

I trust the perspective of the Lancet.
 
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TK421 said:
It is also increasingly evident that the WHO is - regrettably - morally compromised from Chinese interest.
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How so? Do we have an alternative? Does the WHO not have the health of the world as its mandate and priority? I want to know.
 
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ATraveller said:
The virus is not human-made. The paper you cited has nothing to do with AIDS. HIV was used to make comparisons.
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they deliberately added HIV structure to the horseshoe bat SARS structure in order to enhance its ability to infect humans

half of the new cases had no connection with the wet market

are you suggesting the wet market is coincidentally within a stone throw of the only grade 4 weapons lab in the entire country? Odds of that are practically zero
 
How about the naval bases China is building to enforce the nine dash rule, quite a hefty chunk of the South China Sea, which, in spite of its name, is mostly international waters.

A lot of marine traffic goes through there and China could seize all of this body of water and exact tributes from countries like Korea, Japan, and the ASEAN nations, Australia and New Zealand is these countries would like to continue their shipping routes.

The nine dash rule s shown in green

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Crocus said:
How so? Do we have an alternative? Does the WHO not have the health of the world as its mandate and priority? I want to know.
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There’s not a great international alternative other than for world governments to accept the fact that the WHO guidelines might not be based on the best science or that they aren’t vulnerable to being deferential just like anybody else.

 
Aquinas11 said:
they deliberately added HIV structure to the horseshoe bat SARS structure in order to enhance its ability to infect humans
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No they didn’t.
In the abstract:
In this study, we investigated the receptor usage of the SL-CoV S by combining a human immunodeficiency virus-based pseudovirus system with cell lines expressing the ACE2 molecules of human, civet, or horseshoe bat.
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They used an HIV-based pseudovirus to mimic SARS in a petri dish or whatever along with cells.
I read the “Methods” section, and unless I missed it, they didn’t use any actual coronaviruses
 
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