China says "sincere" with Vatican ahead of ordination

[Digitonomy]

Most specifically, the Vatican is reaching out to its own validly ordained priests, those who have been swalled up by the Patriotic church… All priest-members of the patriotic group have been excommunicated.

Now you’ve confused me. Perhaps I just don’t understand the organizational structure of the CPCA. I assumed that all priests who were not underground were members of the CPCA. Are you saying that there are many priests who are legitimate in the eyes of the CPCA but who are not members of the CPCA, and it is these priests who are being ordained by the CPCA bishops with approval of the Vatican?

 

[catharina]

Now you’ve confused me. Perhaps I just don’t understand the organizational structure of the CPCA. I assumed that all priests who were not underground were members of the CPCA. Are you saying that there are many priests who are legitimate in the eyes of the CPCA but who are not members of the CPCA, and it is these priests who are being ordained by the CPCA bishops with approval of the Vatican?

Sorry - leaving for work.

Briefly, NO priests are ordained by the CPCA with approval by Vatican

That is, NONE.

 

[Digitonomy]

Sorry - leaving for work.

Briefly, NO priests are ordained by the CPCA with approval by Vatican

That is, NONE.

I was actually referring to priests being ordained the to episcopate - I suppose I could have said consecrated to be clearer.

 

[catharina]

I was actually referring to priests being ordained the to episcopate - I suppose I could have said consecrated to be clearer.

Again, NONE.

Priests with valid orders PRIOR to joing the patriotic thing
are now excommunicated by the RCC. Later, OK?

 

[Digitonomy]

"catharina:

Sorry - leaving for work…
Later, OK?

By all means. Don’t let this board interfere with getting to work on time, or doing your work while you’re there - I’ve let that happen too often.

Briefly, NO priests are ordained by the CPCA with approval by Vatican

That is, NONE.

Digitonomy:

I was actually referring to priests being ordained to the episcopate - I suppose I could have said consecrated to be clearer.

catharina:

Again, NONE.

Priests with valid orders PRIOR to joing the patriotic thing
are now excommunicated by the RCC.

I’m still unclear on how all this works. My assumption is that the CPCA is basically the state-run church. In other words, if you are openly a priest, you are a member of the CPCA, and presumably were trained in CPCA seminaries, etc. So I would assume that the numbers of priests possessing valid orders prior to joining the CPCA would be a small minority of underground priests who were caught and forced to join the CPCA.

On the other hand, I assume the vast majority of priests are members of the CPCA and have been since before their ordination. And I assume it is from these ranks that bishops are being ordained by the CPCA with the blessing of the Vatican, such as we read about in the OP with Father Peter Luo Xuegang, now apparently Bishop Peter Luo Xuegang.

Where have I gone astray in my assumptions?

 

[catharina]

By all means. Don’t let this board interfere with getting to work on time, or doing your work while you’re there - I’ve let that happen too often.
I’m still unclear on how all this works. My assumption is that the CPCA is basically the state-run church. In other words, if you are openly a priest, you are a member of the CPCA, and presumably were trained in CPCA seminaries, etc. So I would assume that the numbers of priests possessing valid orders prior to joining the CPCA would be a small minority of underground priests who were caught and forced to join the CPCA.

On the other hand, I assume the vast majority of priests are members of the CPCA and have been since before their ordination. And I assume it is from these ranks that bishops are being ordained by the CPCA with the blessing of the Vatican, such as we read about in the OP with Father Peter Luo Xuegang, now apparently Bishop Peter Luo Xuegang.

Where have I gone astray in my assumptions?

Bishops with **Vatican mandates **of consecration are NOT members of the CPCA.
Like many other Catholics in China, they exist outside the CPCA, above ground and
at constant risk of imprisonment and death.

The best advice I can offer is this: follow the Catholic publications for news
on the Church in China. Best of all might be the Cardinal Kung Foundation
since it exists with an ear-to-the ground. Most definitely and very clearly, it
stands in total opposition to the patriotic org.

OTOH, the patriotic org stands in full and adament opposition to the Catholic
Church. It was “invented” to do so. Beiging’s “approval” means exactly nothing.
It is neither necessary or desired by the Vatican. If such “approval” is given
then the Vatican can only HOPE that the patriotic org will prove observant of
Vatican restrictions REQUIRED for such a case; i.e., NO INVOLVEMENT of
the patriotic org in the consecration. The CPCA ignored that (of course) and
ordered a recently “consecrated” and therefore excommuincated “bishop” of
the patriotic org group to attend and to participate. The man did so. The
patriotic group “consecrated” him inJune 2011.

So the Vatican says now:, to paraphrase from cathnewsindia.com/2011/12/01/vatican-denounces-excommunicant/

Church law prescribes that the other bishops taking part in the rite - firstly, Bishop John Chen Shizhong of Yibin, the main officiant of the ordination - should have “absolutely excluded” Fr Lei, or they risk incurring “canonical consequences”.

Nevertheless, the Vatican spokesman added, “probably they could have not prevented it without grave inconvenience” and the Holy See will only be able to evaluate the matter properly when it has more detailed information on the events in Yibin.

**(Meaning possible imprisonment and death or exile in prison.) **

Lombardi stressed that Fr Lei’s defiance of the Vatican was compounded by the fact that he was one of the consecrating bishops during the rite: “His continued disobedience of Church law unfortunately worsens his canonical position.”

(Meaning - most likely - additional canonical penalties, e.g., named heretic.)

The Vatican also noted that Fr Luo’s ordination with Rome’s approval was “certainly positive” after three unwarranted episcopal ordinations in mainland China in recent months.

“This will be appreciated not only by Chinese bishops and Catholics, but also by the universal Church.”

Above again, cathnewsindia.com/2011/12/01/vatican-denounces-excommunicant/

There is no easy way to understand the Church in China -
except to know that the Catholic Church is under virulent persecution -
and that has been the case since 1949.

 

[catharina]

Very good example of the real china re Catholicism:

Beijing: crackdown on Catholics, priests who challenge illegal ordinations denied entry

asianews.it/news-en/Beijing:-crackdown-on-Catholics,-priests-who-challenge-illegal-ordinations-denied-entry-22211.html

Hong Kong (AsiaNews) - The denial of a visa to China for Fr. Franco Mella “is not an isolated incident,” because in recent weeks “there have been some similar cases.” Beijing “has tightened entry controls” after increasing tensions with the Vatican over the illicit ordinations of some bishops. A priest based in Hong Kong, who requested anonymity for security reasons, confirmed as much to AsiaNews. He adds that “the crackdown on Catholics could go on for some time” and is a source of “deep regret and sadness” among the faithful, who desire “unity with the pope and the Church.”

**Last week, immigration officials in Shenzhen, in Guangdong province in southern China, denied entry visas to Fr. Franco Mella, an Italian priest of the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions (PIME). For the first time in 20 years, a missionary based in Hong Kong has been blocked by border authorities. Behind the gesture is their adherence to recent protests over illicit ordinations decided by the Patriotic Association ¶, strongly criticized by the Vatican. **Yesterday card. Zen, archbishop emeritus of Hing Kong also spoke on out on the issue (see 26/07/2011 AsiaNews, Cardinal Zen: the absurdity of an atheist government that wants to lead the Catholic Church).

“They kept me for over an hour in a room,” says the 62 year old PIME priest, "asking me to watch TV. Then they came back and told me that my Chinese visa was canceled. " “They gave me no explanation,” then three officials “escorted me to the Hong Kong border crossing.” He wanted to visit the province of Henan and had obtained clearance a month ago.

**The case of Fr Mella “is not an isolated incident,” said a Catholic source for AsiaNews in Hong Kong, because “in recent weeks there have been some similar cases.” One priest’s entry visa to China was cancelled, others were “blocked at the airport and sent back on board the first available flight.” **The increasing control on entry “affects only some cases in particular,” because others “were able to regularly enter China.”

"Beijing - the source adds – targeted some personalities" and the choice is motivated by their recent support for protests against the illicit ordinations of bishops.

The Catholic community is concerned that “the restrictions will continue for the foreseeable future” and much will depend on the evolution of relations between Beijing and the Holy See, and if there are “new illicit ordinations” by the PA. Certainly, says the source, among the faithful there is a climate of “deep regret and sadness” about what is happening. “The desire for unity with the pope and the Church is strong, but there are formidable obstacles are.” (DS)

Another example:

[clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/07/china-detains-vatican-backed-catholic.html](http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/07/china-detains-vatican-backed-catholic.html)

"Sunday, July 03, 2011China detains Vatican-backed Catholic priest 
Chinese police detained a Vatican-backed Catholic priest and blocked his ordination as a bishop, a parishioner said Thursday, in a move likely to raise tensions with the Holy See.


The detention of Joseph Sun Jigeng came as China's state-run Catholic church reportedly ordained another bishop without the consent of the Vatican, which stipulates ordinations can only go ahead with the Holy See's blessing.


"Joseph Sun Jigeng was taken away by police on June 26 and he has not been released," a member of the Handan Catholic church in northern China's Hebei province told AFP by phone.  ... "

 

[catharina]

Also,

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/8895/

10/11/2011 China retaliates against the Vatican over the question of bishops

"China has taken an aggressive stance against the Vatican over the key question of the nomination of bishops, in the run up to its leadership elections in 2012. Will the Holy See and Beijing manage to reach an agreement in time to prevent a meltdown in relations?
Gerard O’Connell
Rome

China has a history of meeting fire with fire. Nowadays, as the internal political struggle intensifies in the lead up to the election of the country’s new leadership in 2012, China does not hesitate to retaliate whenever anyone dares to oppose its will.

Since early June, it has repeatedly hit back against the Holy See for rejecting a number of candidates that the Beijing authorities had wanted to make bishops and, in particular, for excommunicating two Chinese bishops whose ordination they had forced through, without papal approval, in June and July,

Vatican Insider has learned that Beijing has drawn up a blacklist of around 20 names, most of them priests, that it considers to be linked to the Holy See in one way or other, and whom it does not want to allow into the country in reprisal for the Holy See’s actions.

Since June, it has blocked 9 Catholic priests from entering the mainland, even though they all had valid visas. Four of the priests are Italian, four are of Chinese origin, and one is French. Most are living in Hong Kong.

Seven were blocked at border control points on the mainland, and had their entry visas cancelled without explanation. Two were stopped at Beijing’s international airport, had their visas cancelled and were put on the next flight back to where they had come from.

 

[AthenaC]

So I gather from the earlier post that the Vatican is trying to heal the Chinese Official State Church vs. underground Schism. I think it was genius and delicately worded.

One thing worth pointing out - because there is a high priority on “saving face” in their culture, yet the state has a specific agenda, the official state church is pushing the boundaries as far as it can and (I think) manipulating the Vatican, inching its way into being recognized as in Communion with the Church of Rome. Now, I don’t think they will succeed completely, but I think they will gain some ground before they are done, and I pray for the protection of the Church’s discretion in this manner.

I know that sounds very negative, but I don’t mean it that way at all. Pushing the envelope the way they do can be a very positive trait - think the way the pro-life movement constantly tests and pushes legislative boundaries currently. We could learn from the Chinese in that department.

 

[catharina]

A quick look at USCCB’s view of the Church in China

usccb.net/Usccb_Others/usccb_new/newsletter.htm

usccb.net/index.htm

usccb.net/Usccb_Others/usccb_new/index1.htm

usccb.net/Usccb_Others/usccb_new/staff.htm

Partial list of links

 

[catharina]

So I gather from the earlier post that the Vatican is trying to heal the Chinese Official State Church vs. underground Schism. I think it was genius and delicately worded.

One thing worth pointing out - because there is a high priority on “saving face” in their culture, yet the state has a specific agenda, the official state church is pushing the boundaries as far as it can and (I think) manipulating the Vatican, inching its way into being recognized as in Communion with the Church of Rome. Now, I don’t think they will succeed completely, but I think they will gain some ground before they are done, and I pray for the protection of the Church’s discretion in this manner.

I know that sounds very negative, but I don’t mean it that way at all. Pushing the envelope the way they do can be a very positive trait - think the way the pro-life movement constantly tests and pushes legislative boundaries currently. We could learn from the Chinese in that department.

The patriotic group is in schism from the entire Catholic Church.
The underground Catholic Church is faithful to Rome.
Any priest validly ordained by a validly consecrated bishop of the Catholic Church
is likely to go underground OR be arrested and imprsioned.

Yes, the patriotic group is attempting to gain the approval of Rome.
That will NOT happen. It can NOT happen.
All bishops in the patriotic group are instantly excommunicated.

The only possible “union” would be if/when those who are in schism decide
to repent, do penance, petition for removal of the excommunication, and
re-enter the Catholic Church.

Until or unless that happens nothing resembling
“union” can occur.

 

[AthenaC]

@catharina -

Um … perhaps I missed something from reading your posts … but how exactly do you reconcile your view with the 2007 letter quoted earlier in this thread?

 

[catharina]

@catharina -

Um … perhaps I missed something from reading your posts … but how exactly do you reconcile your view with the 2007 letter quoted earlier in this thread?

Perhaps you could read the letter in its totality?

usccb.net/church-updates/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20LETTER%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20FATHER%20POPE%20BENEDICT%20XVI.pdf

 

[catharina]

Perhaps you could read the letter in its totality?

usccb.net/church-updates/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20LETTER%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20FATHER%20POPE%20BENEDICT%20XVI.pdf

Then after that, read the Compendium to the letter (written two years later:

usccb.net/church-updates/2009/Compendium.pdf

It begins: "Compendium
of the Letter of the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI
to the Bishops, Priests, Consecrated Persons and Lay Faithful
of the Catholic Church in the People’s Republic of China

“The intent of this “Compendium” is to assist the reader in understanding the main points
of the Holy Father’s Letter and to respond, by quoting the words of His Holiness, to the
questions that are frequently raised by Catholics. …”

It is a very complicated issue.

 

[JaMc]

I’m just disappointed that our Catholic Governor here in Idaho is all rearing to go and do business with this regime (Google Idaho +Otter +“Project 60”+China +Beachhead and you will see what I am talking about).

 

[Dale_M]

Any priest validly ordained by a validly consecrated bishop of the Catholic Church
is likely to go underground OR be arrested and imprsioned.

Catharina, that simply isn’t true. I would hope you would recognize that. Most, if not all, of the bishops of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association have apostolic succession and the priestly ordinations they confer are valid.

Yes, the patriotic group is attempting to gain the approval of Rome.
That will NOT happen. It can NOT happen.
All bishops in the patriotic group are instantly excommunicated.

Again, none of those statements are true. The Vatican is reaching out to the individual bishops of the CPCA. I am not sure that organization is not reaching out to the Holy See, since it has shown a great deal of distrust of the Vatican. As mentioned in the 2007 letter from Pope Benedict, few of the CPCA have been excommunicated. Most are in communion with Rome.

It is a very complicated issue.

I agree. And it is a disservice to everyone if we try to oversimplify it.

 

[Digitonomy]

Bishops with Vatican mandates of consecration are NOT members of the CPCA.
Like many other Catholics in China, they exist outside the CPCA, above ground and
at constant risk of imprisonment and death.

catherina:

Any priest validly ordained by a validly consecrated bishop of the Catholic Church is likely to go underground OR be arrested and imprsioned.

So all the priests in union with Rome are underground, and all the bishops in union with Rome are above ground? But the priests come out from underground to be ordained as bishops, at ceremonies celebrated by the above ground bishops in union with Rome who are not members of the CPCA. Such ceremonies are stage-managed by the CPCA, even though none of the clerics involved are members of the CPCA (apparently with the exception of one bishop this last time).

Do I understand this correctly?

 

[catharina]

I’m just disappointed that our Catholic Governor here in Idaho is all rearing to go and do business with this regime (Google Idaho +Otter +“Project 60”+China +Beachhead and you will see what I am talking about).

Yep. It is so hard to believe that many Americans remain clueless about the
evil nature and intent of communist China. Human rights are non-existent there.
The very concept of “freedom” for faithful Catholics is both travesty and tragedy.

 

[catharina]

Again (pathetically) from wiki:

" … The bishops who conferred episcopal ordination on candidates chosen in the manner laid down by the CPCA, without a mandate from the Holy See, and those who accepted such ordination, participated in a schismatic act and were thereby automatically excommunicated.[10] However, not all of them are considered to be still in schism since, beginning in the early 1980s, nearly all[11] “took advantage of the renewed contacts with missionaries and foreign priests to send letters to Rome in which they declared their full communion with the Pope and the desire to be recognized as legitimate bishops. So … the bishops subjected to the political control of the Patriotic Association tried the path of canonical sanatio to … affirm their communion with the Pope, kept hidden because of external conditions, but never renounced in their hearts.”[12] Those few Chinese bishops who have not done so remain in formal schism.[13]

For a time, some bishops who refused to accept CPCA control consecrated other bishops, so that there were cases of two parallel hierarchies among Catholics in China,[14] the one in schism partly,[15] the other in full communion with Pope Pius XII and his successors. The first to take this action was the Bishop of Baoding, Joseph Fan Xueyan, who in 1981 consecrated three bishops without any mandate from the Holy See, which, however, gave approval for his action at the end of the same year.[12] This led to at least the perception, perhaps even the reality, of two parallel Roman Catholic Churches in China, often referred to as the “official” Church and the “underground” one.[16]

It was precisely in that period that bishops ordained according to CPCA rules began to request and obtain recognition from the Holy See. On 26 September 1993 the Holy See decided that no more episcopal ordinations of the kind administered by Bishop Fan without previous authorization by the Holy See would be allowed. It was also decided that, given the greater ease of communication then existing, bishops selected by CPCA procedures were likewise to request and receive the prior approval of the Holy See before ordination, and must seek to have as consecrants legitimate bishops, since “the active participation of illegitimate bishops cannot but make more difficult the acceptance of a subsequent request for regularization.” They were also to make public, when they deemed it possible and opportune, the assent of the Holy See to their ordination.[12] Some have actually made this public on the occasion of their ordination as bishops. …"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association

Wiki seems to accept the fact that any Chinese Comunism’s
governmental control is beyond the pale. Numerous quotes were taken from Zenit.

Still searching for similar statements from the Vatican.

 

[catharina]

from America magazine, a Jesuit publication:

americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=13146&comments=1

" … Over decades of Communist rule, Catholics in China have struggled to manage the dual loyalties of faith and state. Many were driven underground; priests, bishops and laypeople were harassed and arrested. Some died in China’s prisons. But in an era of greater tolerance, Chinese Catholics were beginning to live their faith—together—with growing confidence. **The Vatican even quietly validated bishops previously ordained in the Patriotic Association. Official and back channel negotiations explored normalization of relations between the two sides.

Then, in 2007, Pope Benedict XVI released a letter exhorting unity, pardon and reconciliation among all Catholics; but it also frankly challenged the legitimacy of the Patriotic Association as “extraneous to the structure of the church.” **The association’s current vice chair, Liu Bainian, a long-time party apparatchik charged with managing China’s Catholics, backpedaled from his previous “hope” for a papal visit to China and quickly reoriented himself safely within party lines with an enthusiastic and familiar condemnation of Roman interference in Chinese affairs…"

addendum:
In this day and age, some bishops have found the freedom to communicate
their very personal loyalty to the Vatican and their repugnance at being under
the control of Communist China and its psuedo church.