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Joe_5859
Guest
There’s no doubt that it is a tough situation all around over there. Definitely a tough call to make.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I’m sure this wasn’t a decision that was made lightly.
I won’t pretend to understand the situation fully, but it does seem like they are between a rock and a hard place. Do they keep moving forward with effectively two different Catholic Churches with one controlled by the Chinese government and one under the auspices of the Vatican? Or do they try to reconcile and move things in the right direction from a more unified front? Time will tell how it all works out.
I won’t pretend to understand the situation fully, but it does seem like they are between a rock and a hard place. Do they keep moving forward with effectively two different Catholic Churches with one controlled by the Chinese government and one under the auspices of the Vatican? Or do they try to reconcile and move things in the right direction from a more unified front? Time will tell how it all works out.
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angel12
Guest
I think most of us would want to know more before making such an accusation.Terrible decision. How can they stand aside for excommunicated communists??? What is this pontificate seeking to have as its end goal? The total capitulation of the faith?
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Wandile
Guest
We do not compromise the truth for politics and appearances of a united front. We didn’t during communist Russia and why should we now?I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I’m sure this wasn’t a decision that was made lightly.
I won’t pretend to understand the situation fully, but it does seem like they are between a rock and a hard place. Do they keep moving forward with effectively two different Catholic Churches with one controlled by the Chinese government and one under the auspices of the Vatican? Or do they try to reconcile and move things in the right direction from a more unified front? Time will tell how it all works out.
It’s a betrayal as simple as that and a slap in the face to all the martyrs and priests and layman who suffer d death and persecution to uphold he faith against the communist regime.
The Chinese bishops already said Rome must not yield to them yet it seems Rome Just ignore them.
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Wandile
Guest
Cardinal Zen and other Chinese prelates openly said Rome must not surrender to the communists yet Rome ignores their own and trusts the communists instead.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Well, I’ll let the Chinese Catholics speak to that.It’s a betrayal as simple as that
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Imdaman
Guest
How sad, after all the pain, suffering and anguish the church has gone through in China. What a waste all of it was. I believe this may be a future black eye to the church.
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Wandile
Guest
They already did. Last year they said the Vatican would do this and that they did not approve.
Cardinal Zen said early last year :
“I can understand that the Pope is really naive…He doesn’t know the Chinese communists. But unfortunately the people around him are not good at all. They have very wrong ideas. And I’m afraid that they may sell out our underground Church. That would be very sad,”
Pope Benedict XVI appointed Cardinal Zen, along with 30 others, to a Vatican commission on China in 2007. Yet the cardinal says that, since Pope Francis was elected in 2013, the commission has “just disappeared”, without any official notice. He calls Rome’s lack of communication on the matter “an absolute impoliteness” and accuses those advising the Pope of not wanting to listen to the people on the ground.
When Cardinal Zen was upset about the way that Pope Francis has handled the talks he said:
“How can they believe they know the situation better than me? Better than Archbishop Savio Hon Tai-Fai, who is the number two in the Congregation of Evangelisation? We are Chinese! We have been in China so many years, teaching in the seminaries, spending six months a year there and seeing what’s going on with our own eyes. They don’t believe us. They don’t listen to us. So terrible.”
The same Cardinal went on to say last year, when talks seemed to have reached an impasse:
“In this moment it seems that things are not proceeding,” he says. “I guess that the agreement about the selection of bishops is ready but not signed. I think the government wants the Holy See to grant everything. Not just about the selection of bishops but many other things to control the Church. But these other things aren’t possible. So then the government refuses to sign. So for me that’s good.”
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ican-will-sell-out-chinas-underground-church/
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/10/16/cardinal-says-popes-top-diplomat-poisoned-mind-china/
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/iss...ican-china-deal-is-not-proceeding-thats-good/
Cardinal Zen said early last year :
“I can understand that the Pope is really naive…He doesn’t know the Chinese communists. But unfortunately the people around him are not good at all. They have very wrong ideas. And I’m afraid that they may sell out our underground Church. That would be very sad,”
Pope Benedict XVI appointed Cardinal Zen, along with 30 others, to a Vatican commission on China in 2007. Yet the cardinal says that, since Pope Francis was elected in 2013, the commission has “just disappeared”, without any official notice. He calls Rome’s lack of communication on the matter “an absolute impoliteness” and accuses those advising the Pope of not wanting to listen to the people on the ground.
When Cardinal Zen was upset about the way that Pope Francis has handled the talks he said:
“How can they believe they know the situation better than me? Better than Archbishop Savio Hon Tai-Fai, who is the number two in the Congregation of Evangelisation? We are Chinese! We have been in China so many years, teaching in the seminaries, spending six months a year there and seeing what’s going on with our own eyes. They don’t believe us. They don’t listen to us. So terrible.”
The same Cardinal went on to say last year, when talks seemed to have reached an impasse:
“In this moment it seems that things are not proceeding,” he says. “I guess that the agreement about the selection of bishops is ready but not signed. I think the government wants the Holy See to grant everything. Not just about the selection of bishops but many other things to control the Church. But these other things aren’t possible. So then the government refuses to sign. So for me that’s good.”
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ican-will-sell-out-chinas-underground-church/
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/10/16/cardinal-says-popes-top-diplomat-poisoned-mind-china/
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/iss...ican-china-deal-is-not-proceeding-thats-good/
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AlNg
Guest
I didn’t know that Catholics in the government approved church were excommunicated and had totally capitulated in their Catholic faith? Who has said so?Terrible decision. How can they stand aside for excommunicated communists??? What is this pontificate seeking to have as its end goal? The total capitulation of the faith?
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Genesis315
Guest
It’s not ideal, but similar measures did help heal a schism under similar circumstances in France in the early 19th century.
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Wandile
Guest
The bishops ordained by the state at excommunicated for they were not appointed by the Church. There are a few who technically aren’t who have been approved by Rome. However generally they are a schismatic body. They are also pro-abortion and pro-contraceptive use.
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pnewton
Guest
You premise is simply untrue. Pope Paul VI started the policy of working with the Communist government in the Soviet Union for the improvement of the state of Christians there, and then did likewise with Communist East Europe.We didn’t during communist Russia and why should we now?
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Wandile
Guest
And did he allow them to elect bishops? To dictate our doctrines in those lands? That’s what this move inevitably does.
They have given a bunch of communist atheists authority over the church of God. The church fought this error too hard to renounce it now. This goes against Unam Sanctam of Pope Boniface VIII and the order of authority on earth. The state does not have authority over matters of the church.
They have given a bunch of communist atheists authority over the church of God. The church fought this error too hard to renounce it now. This goes against Unam Sanctam of Pope Boniface VIII and the order of authority on earth. The state does not have authority over matters of the church.
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Reuben_J
Guest
It is a complicated situation and the Pope does not have a black and white solution to that. Unfortunately we see it as purely theoretically thus find it difficult to understand the Pope’s action.And did he allow them to elect bishops? To dictate our doctrines in those lands? That’s what this move inevitably does.
They have given a bunch of communist atheists authority over the church of God. The church fought this error too hard to renounce it now. This goes against Unam Sanctam of Pope Boniface VIII and the order of authority on earth. The state does not have authority over matters of the church.
The Chinese sees the Church as a competition to their Communist ideology though in opening China to the world, they know they cannot stop free worship, like Catholicism.
They have power and authority on their side. The Patriotic Church, their Catholic version, is increasing as it is supported and approved by the government. Their theology and practices are exactly the same except that their clergy are appointed and paid by the government. And because that is so, they are restricted in some activities which could have political implication.
Ordinary folks do not know the difference except for those really hard core Catholics in China. Over time, Catholics just go to the patriotic churches and not knowing the difference.
That’s the dilemma for the Pope. How do we deal with that? If we alienate those Catholics, they can just become like the Anglicans of England. The situation definitely is not the same as in Communist Europe then.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
There might not be harm today with the Patriotic Church. But the long term problem is they answer to Beijing before they answer to the Vatican. The dangerous part is the precedent set for other despotic regimes to bring the Church under its control. Something Hillary Clinton would have looked to do as well given her stance on forcing abortion on the Church.
Recall it wasn’t all that long ago that the Church was fiercely repressed on our own continent.
Recall it wasn’t all that long ago that the Church was fiercely repressed on our own continent.
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Wandile
Guest
Cardinal Zen asked in January, 2016:
“Do our officials in Rome know what an election is in China? Do they know that the so-called Episcopal Conference is not only illegitimate, but simply does not exist? What exists is an organism that is called “One Association and One Conference”, namely the Patriotic Association and the Bishops’ Conference always work together as one body, which is always chaired by government officials (there are pictures to prove it, the Government does not even try more to keep up appearances, it starkly flaunts the fact that they now manage religion!). Signing such an agreement means delivering the authority to appoint bishops into the hands of an atheist government.“
A decade ago, the late Cardinal Kung said:
“I believe that most if not all of you who are here today understand that there is no religious freedom in China. Yet you may be shocked to learn that all of the approximately 40 underground bishops in China have been either arrested and are now in jail, or under house arrest, or under strict surveillance, or in hiding, or simply have disappeared.
We know for sure that six bishops are now in jail. … They are all in their 70’s or 80’s. Three of them have disappeared. (HAN, Shi and SU). Out of these three, Bishop Su has disappeared for approximately 10 years, Bishop Han has just disappeared approximately one year ago after being detained approximately 5 years, Bishop SHI has disappeared almost six years. We do not know whether they are dead or alive.
[…]
Priests, seminarians, nuns and laypersons face similar harassment. We know for sure that there are approximately 25 of them in jail or in labor camps. This list is by no means complete, because of the difficulties in obtaining details. Many cases are not reported here. My educated guess is that there are hundreds in jail. Sometimes, the government simply removes a priest or bishop and do not place them into the jail system, so that there is no official record of this religious prisoner. This is one of the new methods of persecuting the underground church.”
“Do our officials in Rome know what an election is in China? Do they know that the so-called Episcopal Conference is not only illegitimate, but simply does not exist? What exists is an organism that is called “One Association and One Conference”, namely the Patriotic Association and the Bishops’ Conference always work together as one body, which is always chaired by government officials (there are pictures to prove it, the Government does not even try more to keep up appearances, it starkly flaunts the fact that they now manage religion!). Signing such an agreement means delivering the authority to appoint bishops into the hands of an atheist government.“
A decade ago, the late Cardinal Kung said:
“I believe that most if not all of you who are here today understand that there is no religious freedom in China. Yet you may be shocked to learn that all of the approximately 40 underground bishops in China have been either arrested and are now in jail, or under house arrest, or under strict surveillance, or in hiding, or simply have disappeared.
We know for sure that six bishops are now in jail. … They are all in their 70’s or 80’s. Three of them have disappeared. (HAN, Shi and SU). Out of these three, Bishop Su has disappeared for approximately 10 years, Bishop Han has just disappeared approximately one year ago after being detained approximately 5 years, Bishop SHI has disappeared almost six years. We do not know whether they are dead or alive.
[…]
Priests, seminarians, nuns and laypersons face similar harassment. We know for sure that there are approximately 25 of them in jail or in labor camps. This list is by no means complete, because of the difficulties in obtaining details. Many cases are not reported here. My educated guess is that there are hundreds in jail. Sometimes, the government simply removes a priest or bishop and do not place them into the jail system, so that there is no official record of this religious prisoner. This is one of the new methods of persecuting the underground church.”
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Wandile
Guest
Cardinal Zen went on, speaking of the Vatican’s developing Ostpolitik with Beijing:
“What makes me restless is the sight of our Eminent Secretary of State [Cardinal Pietro Parolin] still intoxicated by the miracles of Ostpolitik. In a speech last year, at a Memorial for Card. Casaroli, he praised the success of its predecessor in having secured the existence of the Church hierarchy in the communist countries of Eastern Europe. He says: “In choosing candidates for the episcopate, we choose shepherds and not people who systematically oppose the regime, people who behave like gladiators, people who love to grandstand on the political stage.” I wonder: Who had he in mind while making this description? I fear that he was thinking of a Cardinal Wyszynski, a Cardinal Mindszenty, a Cardinal Beran. But these are the heroes who bravely defended the faith of their people! It terrifies me to realize this mindset and I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
On the day that an agreement is signed with China there will be peace and joy, but do not expect me to participate in the celebrations of the beginning of this new Church. I disappear, I will start a monastic life to pray and do penance. I will ask the forgiveness of Pope Benedict for not being able to do what he was hoping that I could do. I will ask Pope Francis to forgive this old Cardinal from the peripheries for disturbing him with so many inappropriate letters.
The innocent children were killed, the angel told Joseph to take Mary and the Child and flee to safety. But today would our diplomats advise Joseph to go and humbly beg for dialogue with Herod!?”
“What makes me restless is the sight of our Eminent Secretary of State [Cardinal Pietro Parolin] still intoxicated by the miracles of Ostpolitik. In a speech last year, at a Memorial for Card. Casaroli, he praised the success of its predecessor in having secured the existence of the Church hierarchy in the communist countries of Eastern Europe. He says: “In choosing candidates for the episcopate, we choose shepherds and not people who systematically oppose the regime, people who behave like gladiators, people who love to grandstand on the political stage.” I wonder: Who had he in mind while making this description? I fear that he was thinking of a Cardinal Wyszynski, a Cardinal Mindszenty, a Cardinal Beran. But these are the heroes who bravely defended the faith of their people! It terrifies me to realize this mindset and I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
On the day that an agreement is signed with China there will be peace and joy, but do not expect me to participate in the celebrations of the beginning of this new Church. I disappear, I will start a monastic life to pray and do penance. I will ask the forgiveness of Pope Benedict for not being able to do what he was hoping that I could do. I will ask Pope Francis to forgive this old Cardinal from the peripheries for disturbing him with so many inappropriate letters.
The innocent children were killed, the angel told Joseph to take Mary and the Child and flee to safety. But today would our diplomats advise Joseph to go and humbly beg for dialogue with Herod!?”
W
Wandile
Guest
Cardinal Zen made clear that he foresaw today’s events, and that, in his view, they would bring about a “catacomb situation” for faithful Chinese Catholics. He wrote:
“We know that in China the atheist regime has always wanted to totally control the religions. Until now large groups of Catholics, both underground and in officialdom, making great sacrifices, remain faithful to the Church founded by Jesus on Peter and the Apostles. But today a specter appears in the horizon, of a statement coming right from the authority of the Church, that tells them to change course. What was declared as opposed to the doctrine and discipline of the Church will become legitimate and normal; everyone will have to submit to the Government that manages the Church; everyone will have to obey to bishops who until today are illegitimate and even excommunicated. So, they have been wrong for decades these poor “confrontationists”?
My appeal is to prepare the minds for such an eventuality, which once seemed impossible, now it looks very likely. What to do? Accept to go back, as Valente says, to the catacomb situation, which is not the ordinary situation. But, when the ordinary is illegitimate and the legitimate is not allowed, there is no choice but to hold to the legitimate in a extraordinary way.“
“We know that in China the atheist regime has always wanted to totally control the religions. Until now large groups of Catholics, both underground and in officialdom, making great sacrifices, remain faithful to the Church founded by Jesus on Peter and the Apostles. But today a specter appears in the horizon, of a statement coming right from the authority of the Church, that tells them to change course. What was declared as opposed to the doctrine and discipline of the Church will become legitimate and normal; everyone will have to submit to the Government that manages the Church; everyone will have to obey to bishops who until today are illegitimate and even excommunicated. So, they have been wrong for decades these poor “confrontationists”?
My appeal is to prepare the minds for such an eventuality, which once seemed impossible, now it looks very likely. What to do? Accept to go back, as Valente says, to the catacomb situation, which is not the ordinary situation. But, when the ordinary is illegitimate and the legitimate is not allowed, there is no choice but to hold to the legitimate in a extraordinary way.“
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AlNg
Guest
Because the Vatican says so. (At least it appears that way according to the report)We do not compromise the truth for politics and appearances of a united front. We didn’t during communist Russia and why should we now?
Should a Catholic follow some bishop in China, or should a Catholic follow what the Vatican says? (Assuming that the news report accurately describes what the Vatican has said).Cardinal Zen and other Chinese prelates openly said Rome must not surrender to the communists yet Rome ignores their own and trusts the communists instead.
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