Chinese Bishops asked to step aside

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“To do a deal with the Devil was to betray the witness of the martyrs. Or, as Cardinal Zen puts it with characteristic frankness, it is like St Joseph negotiating with King Herod after the massacre of the innocents.”

–Father Raymond de Souza, writing in The Catholic Herald.
 
Let us remember that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit. The end will always be glorious. The church has been through far worse circumstances. In the meantime I don’t think anyone here can claim to be truly experts in this area. So let us support our Pontiff as Catholics should and pray that God will continue to guide the Holy Father.
 
Of course the Holy Spirit is always with the Church, but he is not necessarily part of the Vatican diplomatic corps.
 
-“Bishop Sorondo’s appraisal of China isn’t merely wrong but dangerous, and its painful emanating from a Church that for two centuries has issued trenchant admonitions about the errors and evils of socialism and communism. Sorondo’s views might be too far left for a junior faculty position at the Department of Social Sciences at Cal-Berkeley let alone heading the Vatican’s Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. Pope Francis ought to consider replacing Sorondo before replacing the two Chinese bishops who truly lived Chinese communism.”

–Paul Kengor compares the Paul VI / Richard Nixon approach with the John Pual II / Reagan approach to dealing with communism.

 
The Holy spirit is with the church but people can still and DO choose to do EVIL. God can’t force us to do good.
 
The pope is only infallible when he makes infallible statements (which isn’t that often).

correct me if I am wrong but, I believe the pope was best friends with a communist lady in college so this development doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t say a pope is a bad person (it’s only up to God to decide that anyway), but I think his reasoning is flawed and is causing many good, faithful Catholics in China great pain through this decision. He doesn’t like traditionalists and has criticized them in the past. This concerns me because it shows a lack of empathy for good holy people doing Gods will. Instead of fighting against people doing Gods will, he should build them up like St. Pope John Paul II did in his pontificate. Our church needs hope very badly these days, and I am scared that our current pope is taking that hope away from many Catholics who need a faithful leader to guide them.

Also, I am very sad for the catholics in China right now. They are fearing for their lives right now i am sure.
 
Cardinal Zen and other Chinese prelates openly said Rome must not surrender to the communists yet Rome ignores their own and trusts the communists instead.
China hasn’t been meaningfully Communist since Deng Xiaoping took the reigns after the downfall of the Gang of Four. It’s basically a technocratic autocracy where a few ritualistic noises are made about Mao and the Revolution, but where the society has been steadily re-engineered over the last forty years to be a autocratic capitalist society.

Now, if you want to talk about how the Church is getting a bit too cozy with a gang of tyrants, that’s probably a useful conversation, but sadly, this isn’t the first time the Church, or at least elements of it, have done that sort of thing. But what China is not any more is Communist, and it’s doing everything it can to get rid of the actual old Communist elements of its governing system.
 
I would have to agree with this. If you meet up with young prople in China today, Mao is not unquestionably adored as he was before. Realistic fruits of capitalism and some freedom do creep into the mind of he people and their thought would not necessarily be Mao’s thought especially with things that affect them practically in their life.

Officials of the Communist cadets are often looked at as someone who use their positions in the government to better off themselves personally, not so much about the ideal of the Communism. And when people do not get what they want or that life can get pretty hard, they see Communism as irrelevant to them, and would not hesitate not to love it as they should in those earlier time. That is quite common, if some of the young people that one randomly meets is anything to go by, in China present day.

Captialism brings with it the freedom of mind and expression, and in some ways, people know what is right and wrong in the country. They appreciate the fast pace of modernization, which they are very proud of but at the same time, they would also see the abuse and corruption when they occur.

Whatever it is, the government is still very touchy about the rule (of the government) because that is the necessity to keep the country together, not so much what individual Chinese believes. The government would be wary of any organization that can harness large group of people to influence them. Unfortunately that kind of thing can include groups such ad the Church or even a Kungfu or mystic organization. Anthing in large number that has a probablity to go against the government would set up their antenna alarm buzzing.

It is important for them that the clergy, who may be able to influence their flock, would not become a force to oppose the government or having their loyakty somewhere else. To them, they do not want the clergy to be political. It is more about control rather than about personal belief in religion.
 
Sorry for the typos. Working on a phone keyboard is rather challenging. …
 
Dear all (and @ratio1 specifically – the words I have for your bewildering naiveté and prideful contempt for a faithful cardinal of the Church who actually has first-hand experience of the terror imposed on Chinese Catholics have no place on this forum), as someone whose country suffered under a Communist dictatorship for 41 years, I feel I might be justified in giving you first-hand experience of what this means for the Church in such a country and why, to someone like me, the Pope’s arrangement seems like nonsense on stilts.

In my country, a priest needed explicit permission from the state to perform his duties. When one’s loyalty to the Church conflicted with the demands of the state, one ran a great risk of having this permission revoked – and indeed, this is what happened hundreds of priests who were then often forced to work in manual labor, sweeping the streets, pulling rubber in tire factories etc. The current Primate of my country was jailed for eight years. And that was not even that bad – the priests old enough to cross the state in the dreadful fifties often found themselves deep in uranium mines working themselves to death. And on the other hand, if the state wanted its confident to be consecrated, its wishes were usually granted, since denying them, or making too much noise in the Vatican, would only mean more persecution, forced expulsion of seminarians etc.

On the surface, everything looked dandy – both the Vatican and the State got a say as far as Bishops were concerned, but when it came to priests, the state ruled supreme. My grandparents were a part of a network of faithful Catholics who kept themselves informed about where it was safe to go to Confession – because in the unsafe churches, the state-serving clerics routinely broke the Seal of the Confessional and reported to the secret police.

There was a group of state-sponsored clerics known as Pacem in Terris. Pay note to the sweet words they used to describe themselves. Peace in the World. Friendship between nations. But in reality, this devil-spawn sought to gain ever more control of the Catholic Church in Czechoslovakia, undermine its authority and control the clergy through threats. They controlled the Catholic charity organisation. They censured Catholic journalism and literature through control of the single sanctioned Catholic newspaper and all publishing houses. They were a puppet of the regime, shown to the world as proof that there was no religious persecution going on. The UN praised them and granted them the title of the UN Messenger of Peace – this was achieved through backstage machinations with hope that this would encourage the faithful to trust PiT more, but the only effect this had was that in eyes of Czechoslovak Catholics, the reputation of the UN plummeted to a record low.

And guess what? This monstrosity started losing power only after JPII became pope and started taking measures against the Communists. Our beloved Pope Saint John Paul II who, hailing from Communist Poland, actually knew what he was doing.
 
My assessment of the Cardinal are purely based on what his actions and words. You have not attempted to refute these.
Anyway this is a separate issue to the Vatican China deal.
For this deal I have said it is a difficult situation and I was merely saying there must be good reason the Vatican is doing this so we should pause and think instead of immediately jumping to conclusions like Cardinal Zen. However I do understand he (and you) has been through persecution so your reaction is understandable.

My real question to you is: what’s your solution?
 
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the state-serving clerics routinely broke the Seal of the Confessional and reported to the secret police.
What would they report? That the penitent missed Mass on Sunday Jan, 4, and that he forgot to abstain from meat on a day of abstinence? That he got angry at his wife because she burnt the toast for his sandwich?
 
Pope’s arrangement seems like nonsense on stilts
So dismissing the Pope’s action is ok but me merely pointing out Cardinal Zen’s behaviour in the past ( which is a fact and even the Cardinal does not deny) is contempt.
Do you think the Pope really does not know the problems you have described? Do you really think the Vatican have no back up plan if this deal goes pear shaped as you suggested? Do you think it’s easier to apply diplomatic pressure when the Vatican is illegal or legal in China? Do you think the modern media and the fact China is a large country with rising power who wants to be seen as a good “global citizen” would make a difference in your comparison with Czechoslovakia?

With Cardinal Zen I don’t want to target him but I simply wish people of the West to know that he doesn’t represent hong Kong let alone Chinese Catholic Church. I wanted people here to know what kind of a person he is and the fact that other Hong Kong clergy does not necessarily agree with his viewpoint eg Cardinal Tong.
 
This thread is really little more than another hatchet job on Cardinal Zen.
 
Cardinal Zen and other Chinese prelates openly said Rome must not surrender to the communists yet Rome ignores their own and trusts the communists instead.
The Russian Orthodox Church was able to function (although it was restricted of course) in Communist Russia under Stalin and Lenin. Once Communism was overthrown, the Orthodox Church in Russia experienced a rebirth of sorts. So the Roman Catholic Church should be able to function in China, even though China is run by Communist politicians. This is not an ideal situation, but at least the Church will have a presence.
 
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Cardinal Zen and other Chinese prelates openly said Rome must not surrender to the communists yet Rome ignores their own and trusts the communists instead.
The Russian Orthodox Church was able to function (although it was restricted of course) in Communist Russia under Stalin and Lenin. Once Communism was overthrown, the Orthodox Church in Russia experienced a rebirth of sorts. So the Roman Catholic Church should be able to function in China, even though China is run by Communist politicians. This is not an ideal situation, but at least the Church will have a presence.
Hmm. It’s not exactly a secret that Putin is using the Orthodox church to some degree as a puppet.

 
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