Choir Members not Reading Music

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As far as I can tell, they just pick it up from listening to everyone else. Our piano player will play it, maybe with the choir director singing. Then we sing it as a group. There are enough people who do read music that the people who don’t, just singing along.

As for picking up some music as they go along, I would imagine they do some, but I’m not so sure considering how many times we have had to go over things like repeat signs.

I do think a lot of it may come down to learning styles. My sis and I both grew up taking piano from the same teacher, same style of teaching, etc. We can both read music, but that isn’t how she learns. She has to listen to a piece of music to be able to play it. That would do me no good what so ever, I have to see it written out to be able to figure it out.
My brother, who at 52 has been playing piano for 48 years - by ear, has just recently learned how to play some classical piece properly by watching youtube. He doesn’t read music and the piece was too complicated for him to do it justice by ear. But watching another musician’s fingers at work taught him how to do it himself.
 
I will throw one more curve to the OP. With 1200 families, we also have one person in the parish that can play a keyboard of some type. He assists at the Spanish Masses. I can fake a few songs, but only a handful. We are rather blue-collar and with a high percentage of first generation immigrants.
 
In our parish choirs, it’s mixed – probably more who can’t read music than those who can. Though not being able to read music is a shame (there really is no excuse for music illiteracy in 21st Century America), it’s even worse if you can read music but can’t play or sing a single note unless sheet music is on a stand in front of you.

Give me the ears crowd over the eyes crowd any day of the week – and twice on Sundays. 😛
 
This is all very strange to me. My volunteer parish choir of about twenty people all read music, standard and Gregorian. Everyone sight-reads at least tolerably well, too.
What you have is a blessing. Not many parishes have choirs with all of their members being able to read music. That said, many of my colleagues who work in certain Protestant churches are also blessed with choirs who can read. Some also have the money to pay professional singers and some professional section leaders. That is not standard in Catholic parishes.
I can’t imagine how you could regularly learn new pieces otherwise, at least without having to rehearse them over and over, or bring in a stereo for people to listen to.
You can’t. It is a slow, long process to learn new works for those who can’t read music. Lots and lots of repetition. Then if you are teaching them motets and pholyphony, you have to go through each individual voice part with them continuously, then put them together. If you have a well-established choir, the ones who have been in the choir for a long time can help the newbies out and it isn’t as time-consuming. But if it is new for an entire choir, it can take months to learn a new piece, so you only introduce a few new pieces a year and then rely on your standard repertoire that you know most of the choir will know well. Many times, choir members will bring in tape recorders/digital recorders and record then entire choir practice with their voice parts and then practice at home.
I wonder, though. For those people who are competent choral singers but say they “don’t read music,” do they just mean that they can’t sight-read and can’t hear a piece in their head by looking at the notes? They must have some idea of what those little round things on those lines over the words are, right? When they move upward, the pitch goes up; when they jump downward, the pitch jumps down; when the “alligator mouth” opens toward the right, you get louder; and so on? It’s not like what happens when I look at, say, Thai or Arabic script, which I only see as completely indecipherable squiggles, is it?
For some choir members who have been doing it for years and years, if they haven’t had any formal training, they can pick up that those little black dots mean you “go up” or “go down” and then they do learn a little bit about the dynamic markings but that’s about it. They usually don’t know what those notes actually mean. There are singers and instrumentalists who can sight-read (being able to play an instrument by sight-reading), but can’t sight-sing (being able to sing a note just by looking at it.) They are also singers who can sight-sing, but don’t have perfect pitch, so they give the note a relative pitch. Let’s say the starting note is an A. They might actually start off by singing a note around the A and then can sing the music based on the key they started in. With practice they can get very proficient in having near perfect pitch though, by ear and muscle memory. Few people have natural perfect pitch. My first voice teacher did. She was incredible and was often hired for all that A-tonal, strange and difficult modern classical music because she sight-read like no other and had absolute perfect pitch. I had to work much harder on my sight-singing skills. (I can sight read pretty well which I also had to work on .) But being able to sight-sing is a blessing AND a curse, because when I’m looking at a piece of music in one key and I hear the chanter or singer and instrumentalists performing in another key, or if I am singing a piece of music that is in a different key than my instrumentalist, it “bothers” me. I’m either trying to transpose the notes in my head if it is a fairly new piece for me, or if I know the piece pretty well, I have to ignore the notes for the most part because my brain will automatically want to sing in A written on the page, when in reality the instrument is playing in G.

So, sometimes those singers who don’t sight-sing or read music at all have it a little easier in that regard. But in terms of everything else, I think it is much, much easier to be able to read music - and much faster to learn a new piece.
 
In our parish choirs, it’s mixed – probably more who can’t read music than those who can. Though not being able to read music is a shame (there really is no excuse for music illiteracy in 21st Century America), it’s even worse if you can read music but can’t play or sing a single note unless sheet music is on a stand in front of you.

Give me the ears crowd over the eyes crowd any day of the week – and twice on Sundays. 😛
In this society, be thankful we don’t have more text illiteracy, never mind music illiteracy!

After all, reading music does no good without a good voice or a good ear, both of which are innate anyhow.

He is risen, ICXC NIKA
 
P.S. Just for the record… there are professional singers who don’t know how to read music either. Thus the old stereotype given by instrumentalists that singers aren’t musicians. And unfortunately, there is a reason why the stereotype came about. Singers were notorious for being non-musicians or just poor musicians in general. We singers have had to work very hard to kill that stereotype by becoming good musicians. My instrumentalists friends used to always say when they introduced me to other musicians… “This is Sarabande. She’s a Mezzo-Soprano AND a musician.” Because they know that instrumentalists will roll their eyes or hold their breath when they have to work with a singer they assume are not musicians.
 
What you have is a blessing. Not many parishes have choirs with all of their members being able to read music. That said, many of my colleagues who work in certain Protestant churches are also blessed with choirs who can read. Some also have the money to pay professional singers and some professional section leaders. That is not standard in Catholic parishes.
Yes, this is the case in my choir. The section leaders are mostly music students who receive a stipend. I can’t imagine it would be possible to be able to sing with them without reading music as they learn a fair amount of new material every year.
 
Yes, this is the case in my choir. The section leaders are mostly music students who receive a stipend. I can’t imagine it would be possible to be able to sing with them without reading music as they learn a fair amount of new material every year.
Section leaders can be God-sends for volunteer choirs. They really can hold the choir together and I think help give a certain level of confidence to the other choir members that they are able to accomplish learning this music.

Does anyone’s choir directors mix the voice parts up? I’ve worked in a few where they did that to make sure that the volunteers weren’t just following the section leaders once the piece was learned. I think that also helps choir members take responsibility for their “duty” as a singer in their voice part. Of course, you can’t do it when you’re learning the piece, but once it’s learned, it helps keep the singers on their toes.

I will say, that although having paid choirs/section leaders aren’t the norm in Catholic choirs, once in a while I do see openings for section leaders at random Catholic parishes in my audition listings for singing jobs. So, some do have the budget for them and probably a decent music program.
 
I’ve heard from several people about how many people in their choir can’t read music. Is that standard throughout the US?

Isn’t the ability to read music assumed when you join a choir?
As a trained conductor, no, you don’t dare presume people in most choirs can read music.

Unless it’s a strict audition group, odds are good that 10-75% don’t actually read music.
 
I have only the most rudimentary sight-reading skills, but the fact that I have them at all surpasses most of the people I know. In the protestant church choir I grew up in, we learned by the director playing our part on the piano and singing along. It took maybe a month to learn a new song, with one 1.5 hour session on Sunday. We didn’t do hymns, though, so I’m not sure if that made it easier or worse.
 
Wow, I didn’t notice how much we are blest at my parish! We frequently have long (and new) choral pieces and polyphony!
 
I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?
 
It is not hard to think of a number of blind musicians who presumably do not read music, but are nonetheless accomplished players and singers. Obviously it’s a great skill to have, but music is ultimately the sounds people make.
 
I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?
hahahaha! I think for some organists, it’s just poor musicianship. There are some organists out there who aren’t decent musicians and the fastest they can play is funeral dirge without making too many mistakes. Another is that I’ve discovered there is a train of thought with organists that insist on slow tempi for hymns - any hymn… not just hymns set in 3/4 meter. It’s also not just the tempi of the piece itself, some are trained to hold out the end chord of a verse for about three measures longer than what is actually written. I don’t mind a slight hold before starting the next verse, but any longer just drags the piece.

I’ve been guilty in the past as a cantor of pushing an organist to pick up the tempo of a hymn that was deathly slow. But you can’t expect people to sing and hold long phrases. That said, sometimes it’s the cantor that slows the organist down. I once got the organist to play a faster tempi for the hymns once and he said to me afterwards that it was nice being able to play at a normal speed. He was so used to the other cantor slowing everything down, that it just became habit for him to take the hymns slow. He also was used to the other cantor having no sense of rhythm that he began to play “defensively”. When he realized that he didn’t have to do that with me, his rhythms and tempi became so much better.
 
It is not hard to think of a number of blind musicians who presumably do not read music, but are nonetheless accomplished players and singers. Obviously it’s a great skill to have, but music is ultimately the sounds people make.
This is true, but I can guess that many of those blind singers and instrumentalists have had some sort of training to help them play with correct rhythm, dynamics, etc. because most other professional musicians wouldn’t want to work with them if they didn’t have those essentials. It’s the same with those singers in choirs who can’t read music. They need a good leader who can help them achieve the best of their abilities - and I’ve heard some good volunteer choirs with little musical training sing difficult choral works.
 
is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?
Waltzes are in 3/4 time, but not everything in 3/4 time is a waltz. Here are two examples of well-known non-waltz 3/4 pieces: God Save the Queen; Erik Satie, Gymnopédie No.1.

P.S., sarabandes are non-waltzes in 3/4 time too, aren’t they? 🙂
 
I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?
Oh, puzzleannie, I often think the same thing!
“Wait, isn’t there an interval here? Why are they immediately singing the next word? No wonder we’re getting out of breath.”
“Why does Ode to Joy make me feel like I’m following a horse-drawn hearse?”
 
P.S., sarabandes are non-waltzes in 3/4 time too, aren’t they? 🙂
Why, yes they are… 😉 It was originally a fast dance with a specific rhythmic style that you hear in all sarabandes, but many composers eventually wrote sarabandes not made for dancing in a slower tempi. They are all in triple meter.

Here are a few of my favorite sarabandes:

youtube.com/watch?v=Js3y6ouy1rQ

Also like the same sarabande transcribed for classical guitar with variations on the original melody:
youtube.com/watch?v=NuM0tUrEY0I

Some Bach
youtube.com/watch?v=oBFrEJK7oAg&feature=related

A little more Handel
youtube.com/watch?v=SrATuCmobQE&feature=related

I’ve always been a fan of Liszt’s music and his piano transcriptions… this one I like of one of Handel’s sarabandes

youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3ZWKFWGh4

Ok… let me get off this sarabande kick. 😃
 
" Why are they immediately singing the next word? No wonder we’re getting out of breath."
Training for proper breathing for singing is yet another acquired skill, and I’d imagine fewer people have that training than can read music.

How much are we going to demand from people who are sacrificing time and effort to give their voices to God?
“Why does Ode to Joy make me feel like I’m following a horse-drawn hearse?”
This reminds me of the SIMPSONS episode where Green Day’s “American Idiot” is played as a funeral dirge:)

HE is risen, ICXC NIKA.
 
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