Choosing mortal sin for my husband and marriage? What?!

[GenerationHV]

Was he a happier person when he was working?

Some men’s self esteem is more wrapped up in work/ providing than others.

And just curious when you said you conceived 2 “when it was sure you were not fertile,” does that mean you conceived them during your period? Or you perceived an ovulation/ peak that was not there?

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Please note that the Vademecum for Confessors is for CONFESSORS. Not for laity.

I encourage you to take this to your pastor, as he needs to advise you on this not CAF folks.

This… I had a question about this document, and after answering my question I was reminded that this document is for Confessors, not laity. Confessors have the training, grace, etc etc that we don’t have!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Tay,

I could identify with many things in your post. It is indeed hard to live like that. You have my prayers and sympathy.

However, what strikes me is that your husband does not seem to suggest condoms or sterilisation for himself, and in that way take responsibility for contraception. He is pushing you into it. I’m not suggesting he goes and gets sterilised, but he is taking a seemingly easy way out by asking you to do it.

This is how I got my husband to drop the topic. He insisted that NFP was my choice and that he had no choice in the matter. I finally told him that he had a choice too, and that I was very sorry that it required a nasty procedure, but he still had this choice to get himself ‘fixed’ if he so desired. He never mentioned it again. Funny how men are concerned about their own bodies and well-being.

I know that these things are very difficult and that you can’t fix this over night. I can only recommend that you hand this over to God and ask Him to deal with your husband because you can’t deal with him yourself anymore. And pray for strength, to do the right thing and be a good wife in these challenging times.

 

[Tay]

Was he a happier person when he was working?

Some men’s self esteem is more wrapped up in work/ providing than others.

And just curious when you said you conceived 2 “when it was sure you were not fertile,” does that mean you conceived them during your period? Or you perceived an ovulation/ peak that was not there?

First time i was post partum and did not yet have my period. second time, We ovulated exactly 7 days after (the super-sperm theory).

So, I really love our priest but I’m in an even greater struggle now. He indicated we need to figure something out and pray about what we think would be pleasing to God. Understandably, he could not give a definite answer except that he did not think it was mortal sin, as a lesser of evils. At the end of the day, I would be consenting to the contraception, no? Plus, even if a priest tells me it’s not mortal, does that really change the fact that it is,if I know it in my heart and in the teachings? I have full knowledge that contraception (or relations without penetration, which has also been posed) is a mortal sin, and if hubby talks me into it, I feel I’m consenting to it. Also, NFP and contraception…neither is 100%, and we need 100% (to not conceive, otherwise he will go mad) so we have been living like brother and sister for a few months now since I’m nursing and we can’t get baby on a bottle. We’ve been trying for weeks. This time will pass, and perhaps we will get really good at NFP. In the meantime, I hate seeing my husband so mad all the time as I adamantly dig my heels in. I want to please him AND God, but it’s impossible. I’m praying, but not hard enough I guess. I may just have to give in

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Plus, even if a priest tells me it’s not mortal, does that really change the fact that it is,if I know it in my heart and in the teachings? I have full knowledge that contraception (or relations without penetration, which has also been posed) is a mortal sin, and if hubby talks me into it, I feel I’m consenting to it.

Yes, objectively it is mortal sin. But when we are pressured and thus not free to make a choice, our culpability is lessened. You don’t seem to be free, given the way you describe your situation. There is a lot of manipulation, fear and guilt involved.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes, objectively it is mortal sin. But when we are pressured and thus not free to make a choice, our culpability is lessened. You don’t seem to be free, given the way you describe your situation. There is a lot of manipulation, fear and guilt involved.

Actually, I think that part of it, with respect to a spouse using contraception, also has to do with the marital debt. When you get married you actually give your spouse the right to have relations with you which is something you can’t take back when you want to… I know that that still isn’t an absolute, you can refuse if you have a good reason, and avoiding cooperation in sin does seem like a good reason… but I still can’t help but feel as though that debt plays a part in making it permissible.

 

[Xantippe]

The wanderer said:

“I know that that still isn’t an absolute, you can refuse if you have a good reason, and avoiding cooperation in sin does seem like a good reason… but I still can’t help but feel as though that debt plays a part in making it permissible.”

No way–there’s no “marital debt” involved in non-procreative sexual activity. That’s paying the marital debt in Monopoly money.

I think it’s correct to feel that there is a marital debt in this situation, but her husband doesn’t even want to accept the payment of the debt in appropriate currency.

 

[thewanderer]

The wanderer said:

“I know that that still isn’t an absolute, you can refuse if you have a good reason, and avoiding cooperation in sin does seem like a good reason… but I still can’t help but feel as though that debt plays a part in making it permissible.”

**No way–there’s no “marital debt” involved in non-procreative sexual activity. **That’s paying the marital debt in Monopoly money.

I think it’s correct to feel that there is a marital debt in this situation, but her husband doesn’t even want to accept the payment of the debt in appropriate currency.

The bolded is absolutely false. If a couple is sterile, or post-menopausal they still give each other the right to marital relations.

Maybe you meant to say if it is contracepted it is no longer susceptible to the marital debt? But if that is what you meant aren’t you kind of begging the question?

 

[Kal2012]

Talk to the priest and let him advise you.

You really don’t want to bring more children into a marriage if your husband is severely mentally ill and isn’t getting treatment to solve this problem.

There’s being open to God’s will in your life, but there’s also the assumption that both marriage partners are emotionally willing and able to deal with the situation when the child comes.

My step-mom was institutionalized a few times when I was a kid and it was very scary to watch and go through. As a kid, you have no idea why the grown-up is acting “weird” or “crazy” and you feel awful because you have absolutely no control over the situation and all this major stuff is going on around you.

My dad guided me through the situation the best he could, but it still freaks me out inside when I think about the things that went on during that period of time.

In the end, would you rather raise your kids alone because your husband is in an institution?

I get that NFP is the ideal. However, life isn’t ideal. Sometimes, life gives us a few really bad choices and we have to choose one that is the best of the bad choices. Don’t pretend that your situation is something that it isn’t. This isn’t when you first got married anymore. Talk to your priest.

 

[Xantippe]

Thewanderer said:

“The bolded is absolutely false. If a couple is sterile, or post-menopausal they still give each other the right to marital relations.”

Sorry–what I meant to say is that there is no right to unnatural acts with ones spouse, whether the use of contraception or perverted acts. Doing that is not paying the marriage debt.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Yes, objectively it is mortal sin…

I understand what you mean but a better expression is probably “yes it is objectively serious matter” or “objectively a grave offence.”
Mortal sins by definition always involve a culpable subject…which is prob not what you are saying.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I understand what you mean but a better expression is probably “yes it is objectively serious matter” or “objectively a grave offence.”
Mortal sins by definition always involve a culpable subject…which is prob not what you are saying.

Correct. Thanks.

The OP needs to discuss this with a priest who is orthodox and will guide her well. And then she needs to trust him.

 

[Tay]

I really appreciate all of these responses. I have actually spoken with 2 priests now, and my husband and I have different translations, as neither gave advice for OR against it. So, I’ve asked my husband to give me 9 days to pray a novena about it, and he has agreed. Phew…praying for divine intervention. Thanks everyone.

 

[Rau]

I really appreciate all of these responses. I have actually spoken with 2 priests now, and my husband and I have different translations, as neither gave advice for OR against it. So, I’ve asked my husband to give me 9 days to pray a novena about it, and he has agreed. Phew…praying for divine intervention. Thanks everyone.

I’m not sure I understand the above (in particular regarding “translations”??).

May I ask what guidance you received from the priests?

There are a couple of things that I would like to highlight for your consideration:

• Besides prayer, I think you may need to also take some practical steps - including getting some expert advice on NFP. *
• Are you sure your husband is receiving the best medical treatment? Marriage counselling is unlikely to be too relevant to his major condition. Once a month to a psychiatrist does not seem sufficient of itself given the nature of the condition as you’ve described it. Your husband “falling apart just because of his own internal thoughts and catastrophizing about an extra child” and to the point of needing hospitalisation sounds like a serious illness. Is he receiving specific medications - often these can be very effective. Of course these are matters about which you’d need to seek medical (name removed by moderator)ut.*

 

[Ms_Manners]

As others have discussed, her husband might use contraception without her participation and without her sin, provided that she has made it clear to him that she does not approve of it. It would be best for the OP to talk to a priest…I hope, OP, that you find someone who can help you in this.

We had a similar question in our marriage prep and the answer was that the spouse who is not contracepting cannot participate if she or he knows about contraception, she or he would have to refuse to have intercourse in that case. Participating in the act would be participating in the contraception.
We were told that the non-contracepting spouse would not be sinning only if she or he were unaware of the contraception.
In other words, if my husband insists on using a condom, or if I know he plans to withdraw, I cannot agree to such intercourse.
But if he were to use some other means without my knowledge or withdraw without warning me, I would not be sinning. (There was a warning that even in the case of unannounced withdrawal, the wife couldn’t get away with acting surprised indefinitely.)

Was our priest incorrect or too conservative in his interpretation?

 

[LittleRose]

Tay,

You describe showing signs of fertility through most of your cycle. This doesn’t mean NFP doesn’t work for you, it means your body is telling you something is wrong. Depending on what method you use, you may be able to get medical help to make your cycles(and your health) better. If you are using Creighton, your instructor should be able to help you get in touch with a local NaPro doctor or the Pope Paul Vi institute for a long distance consult. I have a good friend (whose charts show even fewer “safe” days than yours) who is working on the same problem with a fellowship-trained NaPro doctor right now. You are not alone.

You don’t have to sell your soul to save your marriage.

fertilitycare.org
naprotechnology.com

 

[Brendan_64]

Exactly, but it wouldn’t work for the innocent spouse to suggest that the guilty one contracepts.

Tay, I’m sorry you are in such a difficult position! Choosing a mortal sin that is harmful to your marriage is never a good solution for any marriage issue. Never. It would not help your husband’s soul and certainly not your own soul either. I know it is easier said than done, but please look into other forms of NFP that can help you p(name removed by moderator)oint your fertility. It is great that you are going to go speak with a priest, prayers that he is one that has great clarity on the Church’s teachings on this subject and can help shed some light on the why’s behind the teachings!
Prayers going your way!

Choosing a mortal sin in order to save your marriage???

Is your marital happiness more important than the potential eternal damnation of one (or possibly both) of your souls?

 

[Dorothy]

We had a similar question in our marriage prep and the answer was that the spouse who is not contracepting cannot participate if she or he knows about contraception, she or he would have to refuse to have intercourse in that case. Participating in the act would be participating in the contraception.
We were told that the non-contracepting spouse would not be sinning only if she or he were unaware of the contraception.
In other words, if my husband insists on using a condom, or if I know he plans to withdraw, I cannot agree to such intercourse.
But if he were to use some other means without my knowledge or withdraw without warning me, I would not be sinning. (There was a warning that even in the case of unannounced withdrawal, the wife couldn’t get away with acting surprised indefinitely.)

Was our priest incorrect or too conservative in his interpretation?

It sounds incorrect. There is a directive in that if one spouse insists on using contraception in spite of hearing what the Church teaches, then it is their decision, their sin. What is required of the non-contracepting spouse is to remind the other, from time to time, that it is wrong and there are other options.

I have never heard what you described above.

 

[Brendan_64]

Personally I would have thought that to willingly participate in a sexual act that involved the use of contraception would make that party complicit in the offence. A bit like assisting one’s spouse in his/her robbing a bank, because he/she is your spouse and you don’t want to drive them away or damage your marriage by refusing to take part, and afterall it was your spouse’s idea (not yours) and you never agreed with the idea in the first place.

 

[Tiffpark]

Most people won’t agree but I think you need to do what you feel is right for you and your family and what you feel god wants for both of you as for you are one in marriage. I think a lot of people on here get so caught up in what they feel is an important sin they forget another. You are the only one that has to live inside your walls and no one should judge you for what you decide.
Read Matthew 19:3-11 and take that into consideration as well.
They asked, “Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 Jesus said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, but from the beginning it was not this way. 9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.” 10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the case of a husband with a wife, it is better not to marry!” 11 He said to them, “Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given.