Choosing our miracles

[hamba2han]

I have been on another thread and the discussion there has veered towards the subject of ‘miracles of the Creator’ which is somewhat unrelated to the topic of that particular thread.

Anyhow, there is a miracle concerning Jesus (pbuh) which Christians believe Jesus did but Muslims do not accept to be true… and there is also a miracle that Muslims believe Jesus did but Christians do not.

First, let us examine the miracle that Christians believe Jesus did but Muslims do not i.e. the one whereby Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.

In the Bible, we see that Jesus consecrated himself to God and therefore abstained from alcoholic drinks according to the instructions recorded in Numbers 6:1-4:

“And the Lord said to Moses,
‘Say to the people of Israel, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of the Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,
he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink, and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.
All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.”

And so, how then does it make sense that Jesus should perform this “miracle” of turning water into wine when he himself religiously abstained from drinking alcohol?

Now, let us turn to the miracle that Muslims believe Jesus (pbuh) did and in fact, it was the very first miracle among the various that he performed throughout his life.

Al-Qur’an, Chapter 19 (Maryam), Verses 16 - 34
Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: “I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.”
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed.”
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): “Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!”
But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
“So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being’”
At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
“O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!”
But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”
He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
“So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

And so, we see that the very first miracle that Jesus (pbuh) did was to talk while still a baby in the cradle and defend the honour of his mother in the face of accusations of being unchaste by members of her community.

There is no mention and really there is no room for Joseph the carpenter in the Qur’an and the truth of the matter is that he is not needed at all as a husband in order to preserve Mary’s position of reverence because her baby son Jesus (peace be upon them both) was the one who protected her honour while still in his cradle.

Now then folks, we need to choose our miracles here.

Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother… but instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

 

[AgnosTheist]

“And the Lord said to Moses,
‘Say to the people of Israel, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of the Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,
he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink”

And so, how then does it make sense that Jesus should perform this “miracle” of turning water into wine when he himself religiously abstained from drinking alcohol?

Jesus did not make the vow of the Nazirite.

Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother and instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

Because christians strongly believe that Mohammad merely invented that story about the talking infant.

Besides, a stronger defense of honor would be the presence of a husband. So having Joseph around made more sense than a talking infant. Also, a husband is needed to earn income. In Islam how did mary survive without a husband? Did she beg the streets for food? Did she constantly bugged her relatives for support? Thats not a good example.

 

[Della]

The story of the Infant Jesus speaking up to defend his Mother’s honor are not a part of the canon of Scripture, but came from other writings, some rather late, that had other such tales. (I haven’t read all of them but have read parts of them that cite such stories, but I can’t recall exactly which ones they were. No doubt others will be able to supply that for you.) Such writings were/are not approved nor believed to be accurate.

(As a side note, there is a charming little Medieval song based on this apocryphal story in which Joseph questions Mary about her pregnancy and the Infant in her womb miraculously has a cherry tree bow down to her. I sang it one Christmas as a solo at my high school.)

And Jesus never took a vow to abstain from wine. He practiced the faith of his fathers just as any other faithful son of Israel. Indeed, his detractors accused him of “eating and drinking” with sinners. He is described as eating the Passover with his disciples, a meal in which wine was definitely consumed. And he consecrated the Passover wine, transforming it into his blood. I cite this merely to demonstrate that your idea that he took a vow of abstinence is simply not the case.

 

[Valke2]

Also, the vow of the Nazarite was for a specified period of time. One did not make the vow for a lifetime.

If you believed that Jesus had taken this vow for his entire adult life, then you would also have to discount the assertion that he resurrected the dead, as one who takes the Nazerite vow is forbidden to come in contact with the dead.

If you read verse 19 in Numbers, you will find that the restrictions on the vow were removed after the time period was fullfilled and the person had made certain sacrifices.

 

[Valke2]

I have been on another thread Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother… but instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

I could probably dig up a psalm or two that associates drinking wine with Joy and blessings. Not to mention the express provision in Genesis that allows us to eat all the seeds and fruits etc.

 

[ralphinal]

If I were to pick a miracle of Jesus not in the Bible, it would be the one where as a child he made a peice of furniture shrink to fit into the room. I always like the idea of Jesus helping St. Joseph.

What about the miracle of the Resurection? Christians accept that one and Muslims do not.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Now then folks, we need to choose our miracles here.

Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother…

Hi hamba2han,

This so-called miracle doesn’t fulfill any prophecy. Consequently, there really is no evidence that this story is from God.

And there is no reliable history to support the testimony of this story. It may very well have just been made up. (I realise that the story is in the Qur’an, but responsible Christians don’t believe the Qur’an to be divinely inspired because of its lack of prophecy.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother but instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

I think it is a good question to ask. For me, the answer is that i do not choose to believe anything. If i believe something simply because i want to believe it, then i might be believing a lie.

Rather than choose, i try to let the truth make the choice for me. If the evidence is strong enough to convince me something is true, then i go where the evidence leads me.

There is strong evidence that the events in the Bible are based on reliable eyewitness accounts and that the books of the Bible are reliable historical documents. That’s one reason why i believe them, not because i want to but because to not believe them would be to deny what the evidence shows is the truth.

Your question is why don’t i believe that the account in the 19th chapter of the Quran is true. My response is because i have not yet discovered the evidence that the account is true. Give me the proof and i will seriously consider it.

 

[dolphinlove]

The problem here is you have 2 totally different belief systems at work.
We believe what the bible says, you believe what the quran says.
So doesnt it make sense to say we are never going to agree on each others beliefs because the 2 are totally different things.
We can go for days nit picking the differences of what Islam believes and what Christianity believes.
But the bottom line is, we should be seeking the truth.
The truth to me is the bible, the truth to you is the quran, that fact is not going to change, as we are both steadfast in our beliefs.

Catholicism has many miracles approved by the Vatican, who can substantiate your miracles? Who has the authority in Islam to approve miracles? Or do you just read stories of miracles on the internet and think, oh a Muslim said he saw this and that and you presume its a miracle?
The Vatican thoroughly goes through certain criteria before it approves of miracles, so we can be sure they are real. Now, we are certain of our miracles, are you?

 

[hamba2han]

Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

And we also need to remember the following:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[Matthew 5:17-20]

Based on these Biblical verses, it is therefore simply inconceivable that Jesus (pbuh) would have been drinking alcohol and that he would have even considered performing this “miracle” of turning water into wine.

 

[Reuben_J]

And so, we see that the very first miracle that Jesus (pbuh) did was to talk while still a baby in the cradle and defend the honour of his mother in the face of accusations of being unchaste by members of her community.
There is no mention and really there is no room for Joseph the carpenter in the Qur’an and the truth of the matter is that he is not needed at all as a husband in order to preserve Mary’s position of reverence because her baby son Jesus (peace be upon them both) was the one who protected her honour while still in his cradle.
Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother… but instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

Beside did not fulfil any prophecy, your reason for believing that this miracle is necessary does not add up. Jesus was rejected in his hometown in Nazareth because “Isn’t this Joesph’s son?” they asked. LK4:22 He also could not do many miracles of healing locally because people knew him to be the son of a carpenter.

The last Jesus needed was publicity about himself. He told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. Mt 16:20
Oh and oh … what about King Herod? All he needed was a self advertising agency that saved him from killing all the boys in the vicinity of Bethlehem who were under two years of age …

So most probably this so called miracle is only a made up story.

Based on these Biblical verses, it is therefore simply inconceivable that Jesus (pbuh) would have been drinking alcohol and that he would have even considered performing this “miracle” of turning water into wine.

It may be ‘inconceivable’ but more important for Jesus is the ‘spirit of the law’. Thus it is very likely that he allowed this miracle because this would help the wedding celebration. Remember he permitted work of mercy during Sabbath rather than rigidly observing it and caused people to be hungry or animal to die. Remember too that he told them that they “should rejoice and be merry while the bridegroom is here”.

 

[Reuben_J]

Remember too that he told them that they “should rejoice and be merry while the bridegroom is here”.

…

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? … "

 

[hamba2han]

The last thing Jesus needed was publicity about himself. He told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Why then did he perform other miracles like curing a leper, healing a blind man and raising the dead?

Would these actions not draw attention to himself?

Remember too that he told them that they “should rejoice and be merry while the bridegroom is here”.

Is it not possible for Christians to “rejoice and be merry” by serving only orange juice, syrup and various other non-alcoholic drinks at weddings?

Muslims do this all the time and we certainly have much joy and merriment at weddings and other happy occasions.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

And we also need to remember the following:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[Matthew 5:17-20]

Based on these Biblical verses, it is therefore simply inconceivable that Jesus (pbuh) would have been drinking alcohol and that he would have even considered performing this “miracle” of turning water into wine.

I admire Muslims and Christians who choose not to drink alcohol. However, i think it is important when speaking to Christians to not misrepresent what the Bible says.

Please notice, H2H, that the passages do not forbid consuming alcohol; they forbid becoming intoxicated with alcohol. There is a difference between drinking wine and drinking wine in excess.

19 Listen, my son, and be wise,

and keep your heart on the right path.

20 Do not join those who drink *too much *wine

or gorge themselves on meat,

21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,

and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

22 Listen to your father, who gave you life,

and do not despise your mother when she is old.

23 Buy the truth and do not sell it;

get wisdom, discipline and understanding. 24 The father of a righteous man has great joy;

he who has a wise son delights in him.

(Proverbs 23)

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

(Ephesians 5)

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

(Matthew 26)

14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

(Luke 22)

One reason for drinking water mixed with wine was to disinfect the water; another was because in the desert there simply was not enough water to go around. Jesus (pbuh) drank wine mixed with water because that was necessary and part of the culture. He never, however, condoned getting drunk. Neither should any serious follower of him.

 

[Booklover]

Why then did he perform other miracles like curing a leper, healing a blind man and raising the dead?

Would these actions not draw attention to himself?

Is it not possible for Christians to “rejoice and be merry” by serving only orange juice, syrup and various other non-alcoholic drinks at weddings?

Muslims do this all the time and we certainly have much joy and merriment at weddings and other happy occasions.

WIhy do you keep trying to force your beliefs on everyone else??? Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that many people believe things contrary to your teachings?? Valke2 answered you very well about wine drinking and you continue trying to claim that Jesus couldn’t have drunk wine!

None of the things you believe have any substantiation and you go on and on, and yet you believe that in heaven Muslims will drink wine! Makes no sense whatsoever that God would allow in heaven what you believe he prohibited on earth!

 

[Booklover]

I admire Muslims and Christians who choose not to drink alcohol. However, i think it is important when speaking to Christians to not misrepresent what the Bible says.

Please notice, H2H, that the passages do not forbid consuming alcohol; they forbid becoming intoxicated with alcohol. There is a difference between drinking wine and drinking wine in excess.

19 Listen, my son, and be wise, and keep your heart on the right path.

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, 21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. 22 Listen to your father, who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old. 23 Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding. 24 The father of a righteous man has great joy; he who has a wise son delights in him.(Proverbs 23)

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.(Ephesians 5)

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.(Matthew 26)

14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this. (Luke 22)
One reason for drinking water mixed with wine was to disinfect the water; another was because in the desert there simply was not enough water to go around. Jesus (pbuh) drank wine mixed with water because that was necessary and part of the culture. He never, however, condoned getting drunk. Neither should any serious follower of him.

Great post!

Vickie

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

WIhy do you keep trying to force your beliefs on everyone else??? Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that many people believe things contrary to your teachings?? …

Booklover:

I mean no disrespect to you, but why become annoyed when someone expresses what he believes in a forum that is designed for this very purpose?

If the words of H2H are offensive to your eyes, please consider staying clear of the Non-Catholic Religions forum. There are other forums at Catholic.com.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Great post!

Vickie

Thank you. I spent a couple of years in Italy and learned that, unlike some places in the US, getting drunk was socially unacceptable. Yet, everyone, even children, drank wine. It was an eye-opening experience.

 

[Booklover]

From the Catechism:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

Vickie

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

From the Catechism:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

Vickie

I’d have to agree with the Bible, and the Catechism, and Islam: Getting drunk is always wrong.