Christ as God in the Bible (evidence for our Muslim members)

[JP2Admirer]

Here’s a better way to answer your claim, I think. Correct me if I’m wrong.

What you are saying is that everything we need to know about God has already been revealed. Since it has been revealed, that’s all we need to know.

Jesus revealed everything that is essential to our salvation. Understanding God is not necessary, only belief in Him. But since God is so great, what Jesus revealed to us is still mysterious, precisely because He is God. If it was all concepts we could understand, I’d be a little skeptical of the claim to be God or even from God.

 

[Faith101]

hlgomez:

Faith101,

I can’t believe your utter ignorance. I have shown you numerous verses including Jesus’ own words:

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the “Alpha and the Omega.” In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the “Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end.” The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, “I am the First and the Last.” *This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12. *

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says “I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore.” When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

---

Truly, the words in Scriptures are being fulfilled;

‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’

I’ll be praying for you, and I pray that the Lord will not held your ignorance against you.

Pio

Hlgomez

I may be ignorant about a lot of things…so i’m not going to argue with you about that. But what I do know is that God does not die, like you have interpreted the verses to mean.

So i watched the Passion right…and i realize its not the best place to get your info about the Bible…but throughout the whole movie…Jesus (peace be upon him) is talking to SOMEONE, he praying to SOMEONE…he is asking someone for something…and it is surely not himself. So this leads me to the conclusion that he is either talking to himself (which doesnt make sense to ask yourself soemthing) or he is talking to his creator, who is God. So these are two individuals…if you make them equal, they become 2 gods…in 1. This is how i see it.

The verses below seem to indicate to me that Jesus was a messenger of God and not God himself. They ALL agree with the Islamic perspective of Jesus Christ peace be upon him

Jesus answered them and said "my doctrine are not mine, but His who sent me (John 8:50)

My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me (John 7:16)

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16)

"For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the father who sent me gave me a command, what i should say and what i should speak (JOhn 12:49)

“Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from me; neverthless, not my wil, but yours be done”

To me (and maybe this is due to ignorance as you state) the verses above imply that Jesus peace be upon him was a MESSENGER from God…and not god himself.

Please let me know how you understand these verses.

Thank you for your prayer. May God guide us all.

 

[Faith101]

JP2Admirer:

Here’s a better way to answer your claim, I think. Correct me if I’m wrong.

What you are saying is that everything we need to know about God has already been revealed. Since it has been revealed, that’s all we need to know.

Jesus revealed everything that is essential to our salvation. Understanding God is not necessary, only belief in Him. But since God is so great, what Jesus revealed to us is still mysterious, precisely because He is God. If it was all concepts we could understand, I’d be a little skeptical of the claim to be God or even from God.

Peace JP2Admirer

We do not know everything about God…how could we, we are just human. However, He, from His mercy, has revealed certain things about Himself. None of these things cause us to question our own common sense.
God is Most Just (makes sense)
He is Most Kind (makes sense)
He is One and nothing is like Him (makes sense)
and so on.

Do you at least understand a muslim’s perspective on this?

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

But what I do know is that God does not die, like you have interpreted the verses to mean.

Faith101,
How many times do we have to say that death does not mean “cease to exist”?!? If God wants to become a man, be born as a man, and die as a man…who are you to say He can’t?!?

Faith101:

So i watched the Passion right…but throughout the whole movie…Jesus (peace be upon him) is talking to SOMEONE, he praying to SOMEONE…he is asking someone for something…and it is surely not himself.

Surely? 1. Why are you so sure? 2. Is God the Father the same thing as God the Son? 3. Are you even trying to understand the concept of the Trinity?

Faith101:

So this leads me to the conclusion that he is either talking to himself (which doesnt make sense to ask yourself soemthing) or he is talking to his creator, who is God. So these are two individuals…if you make them equal, they become 2 gods…in 1. This is how i see it.

Jesus was not created. He took on human form (“the Word became flesh”), and became 100% human (while remaining 100% God). As a 100% human, He submitted to God’s will. As 100% God, His will was God’s will. This is the Incarnation, and what is theologically refered to as the “hypostatic union” of God and Man in the person of Jesus the Christ.

Faith101:

The verses below seem to indicate to me that Jesus was a messenger of God and not God himself. They ALL agree with the Islamic perspective of Jesus Christ peace be upon him

You can rip whatever verses you want to out of context to try and justify your position, but it doesn’t change the fact that the whole Old Testament, the whole New Testament, the Apostles, and their students all attest to the fact that Jesus was God.

Shalom,
RyanL

 

[Faith101]

as regards Muhammad, where does it say in Quran a particular verse that say; “I am Allah, and Muhammad is my prophet.”

Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. He is the author.

Mohamed, the last messenger of God:

muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. (Chapter #33, Verse #40)

Muhammad is the apostle of Allah.(48:29)

THe Quran was revealed to Mohamed:

But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition. (Chapter #47, Verse #2)

font=Verdana]It seems to me that it is another person that is speaking that; “…Muhammad is his prophet” and not the words of God himself attesting that Muhammad is “my” prophet.

Again, the entire Quran is the LITERAL word of God. This is what muslims believe.

font=Verdana]There is a radical difference between Muhammad and Jesus because God Himself, from his own words say; “This (Jesus) is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” attesting to the fact that Jesus is his Son. (emphasis added)

This is your belief. This is what the Quran says about this matter

They say: “(Allah) hath begotten a son” - Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not? (Chapter #10, Verse #68)

On issues of belief, the Quran is very clear, leaves no room for conjecture.

Take care

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

Again, the entire Quran is the LITERAL word of God. This is what muslims believe.

Faith101,

Can I please apply this to my thread on Isa, Jesus, Mary, Miriam and Linguistics? Please? Because this is exactly the opposite of what was being claimed on that thread about “sister of” and “daughter of”!

Shalom,
RyanL

 

[Faith101]

RyanL:

Faith101,
How many times do we have to say that death does not mean “cease to exist”?!? If God wants to become a man, be born as a man, and die as a man…who are you to say He can’t?!?

Surely? 1. Why are you so sure? 2. Is God the Father the same thing as God the Son? 3. Are you even trying to understand the concept of the Trinity?

Jesus was not created. He took on human form (“the Word became flesh”), and became 100% human (while remaining 100% God). As a 100% human, He submitted to God’s will. As 100% God, His will was God’s will. This is the Incarnation, and what is theologically refered to as the “hypostatic union” of God and Man in the person of Jesus the Christ.

You can rip whatever verses you want to out of context to try and justify your position, but it doesn’t change the fact that the whole Old Testament, the whole New Testament, the Apostles, and their students all attest to the fact that Jesus was God.

Shalom,
RyanL

Thanks for your response Ryan. What are the context of these verse? They seem pretty clear to me.

I dont kknow much about hypostatic union and I already admitted to not understanding the trinity. Praise God! He has sent a religion easy to understand…God is One.

IN any case…I’m comfortable of my beliefs and you are comfortable with yours. All we can do is pray that God will guide those on the wrong path…to the right one.

For now…you have your religion…and I have mine

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

What are the context of these verse? They seem pretty clear to me.

Faith101,

Truly, why should I bother to explain the context? Even if I were to explain how this all makes perfect sense with Jesus as God, you would continue to deny that Jesus ever said these things, would you not?

Shalom,
RyanL

 

[Superstar905]

FAITH 101, Franz above asked you this on post #54: “We also have 2000 years of historic witness to the truth. Here is only the first 200 years after Christ. My question is, what is the earliest testimony that you can produce (Faith 101) that teaches otherwise? Where were all the Muslims during this time period? Or did they all start with Muhammed? So besides all the scripture that can be produced and argued till kingdom come, here are real life examples of the constant faith preserved for 2000 years. Was this some crazy idea? Jesus being God? By the way, Faith101, keep searching this sight and asking questions in the manner you are. You are very respectful and a joy to read. Do not let some (like USCATHOLIC) scare you off with his judgemental approaches. Catholics work in love.”

He then proceeded to provide you with the constant world wide held belief. Answer his questions please, I’m quite curious.

 

[hlgomez]

Hlgomez

I may be ignorant about a lot of things…so i’m not going to argue with you about that. But what I do know is that God does not die, like you have interpreted the verses to mean.

Faith101,

I understand your ignorance up to this point. You are trying to squeeze in your mind who God Almighty is, and what he can do.

As regards your question above, God does not die. His divinity did not die, only his assumed human nature. This is the Christian faith and no amount of human explanation can suffice the mystery of God who made himself incarnate.

How can God talk to himself? The answer is quite simple, but in your trying to undersand it, you are making it confusing. God the Son is talking to His Father (another Person). Jesus is NOT talking to himself but to his Father. So why do you confuse the Persons?

God is not solitary. That’swhy in the beginning of creation when God created man, he said; “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Do you notice the “us” and “our” in the utterance of God? God is the one speaking here, not an angel or any other being. This only proves that God himself is never solitary.

Hope that aids in your understanding.

Pio

 

[memnoch_lover]

jesus is Son of God by nature because jesus has pre existent before all things were created. He pre existent because he was eternally generated by God because he is generated by God he has therefore thesame nature as God hence Son of God by nature.

whereas others are son of God by title like the kings of israel. That is only title since these human kings do not share thesame nature as God, they are not generated by god thru nature.

That is the difference.

 

[Superstar905]

Faith 101, POST #69 I addressed to you to answer, please do. Thanks. I see you have posted on other threads. I know that as a muslim, this isn’t the easiest to comprehend, and does require to a degree the gift of faith which our Heavenly father has been so gracious to give understanding that we could never fully comprehend God.

It’s good that you are here though, that to me is encouraging enough. You are charitable in your posts, peace be with you.

 

[Faith101]

RyanL:

Faith101,

Can I please apply this to my thread on Isa, Jesus, Mary, Miriam and Linguistics? Please? Because this is exactly the opposite of what was being claimed on that thread about “sister of” and “daughter of”!

Shalom,
RyanL

Peace Ryan

The Quran is the LITERAL word of God. It is God telling us about what happened before us, so that we may learn.

It is not the opposite of what is being claimed on the other thread. Again I made the point to tell you that when pharaoh said “I am god” this is also recorded in the Quran. Its what happened.

Ryan, at first I thought that you were truly trying to understand…but some recent posts from are starting to prove otherwise. I pray my assumptions are wrong.

 

[hlgomez]

Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. He is the author.

Mohamed, the last messenger of God:

muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. (Chapter #33, Verse #40)

Muhammad is the apostle of Allah.(48:29)

THe Quran was revealed to Mohamed:

But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition. (Chapter #47, Verse #2)

Faith101,

Blessed be God!

Thanks for your answer but it’s quite not clear in the Quran where Allah himself have spoken and said; “Mohammad is my prophet” or “I am revealing my words to Mohammad” or something of that sort.

The statements in the Quran suggests an utterance of a different person other than God, probably an angel. Hence my question: Are we going to believe it? What if it’s a fallen angel speaking those words and dictating it to Muhammad? We cannot just say yes we believe it’s the word of God, but where is the proof that God himself directly spoke to Muhammad? Where are his words directly spoken to him?

In the case of Jesus, God (the Father) spoke about/ to him directly, meaning He himself spoke the words by saying; “This is my beloved Son…” and "You are my beloved Son…"You see the first Person speaking, not an indirect or coming from a different person.

Pio

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

Is there really a point in debating this? Muslims will argue that the Bible has been corrupted, so even if we could prove Jesus thought himself God in the NT, they wouldn’t accept it anyway.

 

[Franz]

FuzzyBunny116:

Is there really a point in debating this? Muslims will argue that the Bible has been corrupted, so even if we could prove Jesus thought himself God in the NT, they wouldn’t accept it anyway.

Which was entirely my point in listing the 200 years worth of Chrisitian testimony to the truth, which Faith 101 will not address, or is otherwise checking some resources prior to addressing. My whole point is that there was no “bible” as we have it today, or as existed in 400 A.D. Where were the Muslims during this time? Who were they? Where is their historic account?

I’m still waiting.

 

[fatuma]

The church also believed once that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. Just because the church says it, doesn’t mean it is true and that is where we come to a stand off. Now we should gracefully leave this alone because arguing about which view of God is correct is pointless and only serves to cause tension and bad feelings.

Chapter 109
**In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. **

Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

wa salam

 

[J.W.B]

I’m sure happy Jesus Christ is God because how else could my sins be forgiven against God Almighty unless He provided the Sacrifice? Nothing I could do would be suficient, nothing!

When you come to understand what Christ has done for you it’s oh so beautiful. He died for YOU! He died for ME! Our sins were upon Him on the cross and he died with them and was raised from the dead for PROOF that the penalty was paid. As I understand ONLY GOD can accomplish such an act. No one else, no man, creature or angel ever could. Thank you God.

God give you peace

 

[fatuma]

You know I always wanted to know, that is God died for your sins does that mean that there is no more sins on earth? Or is it that when you believe that God died for your sins, then all of your sins are forgiven? And does this mean that He only died for the sins of thoes who believe in Him? Beacuse I’m thinking if God died for mankinds sins, then that means there are no more sins, no need for Hell and everyone goes to heaven.

wa salam

 

[fatuma]

Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am*. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

• Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: “I am as My servant expects Me to be”. The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.

wa salam