Christ, creature or creator?

[Fidei]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Born, or begotten, as we say in the Creed, does NOT mean the same thing as “created.”

A father BEGETS somehting in the same image and nature as himself: a bird begets birds, a beaver begets beavers, and a man begets other humans.

One MAKES or CREATES something of a different nature from himself: a bird builds a nest, a beaver builds a dam, and a man builds a house, office building, car, or whatever.

 

[MatthewBerkeley]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ Jn 1:1

Throughout Scripture, as far as I am aware, the Second Person of the Trinity is referred to in a number of different ways.
In Genesis, God talks in first person plural, ‘Let us’ ‘We’, establishing that the one Godhead is made up of multiple persons.
In the book of Wisdom, Wisdom is seen as the distinct but inseparable part of God through which creation was made. Wisdom is referred to as feminine ‘she’ ‘her’ etc, but that of course is due to language restrictions.
The Word of God in John, is established as being Jesus, the Son of God, He who assumed our human form. So it is clear that John establishes the unity of God the Father and God the Son.
As for Christ being created, in the creed, we say ‘begotten, not made, of one being with the Father’.
I wouldn’t be the best person to explain that because I don’t understand it well enough, but I know it’s relevant in some way
These are just my initial thoughts when I read your post, maybe someone a bit more learned could clarify this better?
God bless

 

[Janet1983]

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

Let me help you with a little bit more Scripture.
Jesus Christ is God and He is the Creator.

The verses after the one you quoted actually show that the word firstborn (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) does not mean that he is the first created (protoktisis). If you continue reading after Colossians 1:15 you will find that He indeed is the Creator:
Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Javl]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

Jesus is begotten of the Father which the word begotten does not mean created. In Exodus 3:14, God says His name is I AM and in John 8:58 Jesus claims the same title “Before Abraham came to be I AM”. This alone should prove that Jesus is God and was not created.

Also, we all believe that the Word, in John 1:1-3 refers to Jesus and that Jesus is the Word. According to John!:1-3, the Word made ( created ) all things and that nothing was made that He did not make. Now, if Jesus was created ( made ) and we believe what John says of the Word ( Jesus ), then how could Jesus have made Himself? Therefore this is definite scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT created.

There is much other scriptural evidence that Jesus is God and was not created.

I hope this helps. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[FCEGM]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

Don’t let the JW’s flummox you. Here is another thread on the topic that will help you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6112506#post6112506

 

[Javl]

FYI:

The WTBS also teaches that Jesus is the first creation of God since He is “the first-born of all creation”. And in His pre-existence is/was the Archangel Michael. All this is in contradiction to what is emphatically stated otherwise in the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Fidei]

I had a recent bible study with my JW friend, they said, if Christ was God, how can he have a “Beginning”? as in John 1:1–In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

What’s behind this “beginning”, if Christ Co-exist with God for all eternity?
shouldn’t the word “beginning” have been there at all?

Just asking the plain explanation of this, not counter-verses.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I had a recent bible study with my JW friend, they said, if Christ was God, how can he have a “Beginning”? as in John 1:1–In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

What’s behind this “beginning”, if Christ Co-exist with God for all eternity?
shouldn’t the word “beginning” have been there at all?

Just asking the plain explanation of this, not counter-verses.

in the beginning the actors were all on stage. In the previous statement did the actors exist before the play? the beginning of what? I think is what you need to consider. in this case it is referring to the beginning of creation.
A great exercise for understanding who God is. look through the new testament for old testament quotes that are used to refer to Jesus,. there are many many of them. Then look back in the old testament and read the verse that was quoted by the new testament author. then read the context and who these original verses were talking about. In some cases they are messianic prophecies, most are referring to God Himself. Look for
LORD (you may already know this) LORD is substituted for the name of GOD. Can you imagine how blasphemous it would be to attribute a verse that speaks of God to refer to a created being.

 

[yellowbird]

I had a recent bible study with my JW friend, they said, if Christ was God, how can he have a “Beginning”? as in John 1:1–In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

What’s behind this “beginning”, if Christ Co-exist with God for all eternity?
shouldn’t the word “beginning” have been there at all?

Just asking the plain explanation of this, not counter-verses.

If you are Catholic, why are you studying the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses? Do you want to become a Jehovah’s Witness? Do you want to walk away from the one true Church that Jesus Christ founded?? Do you want to walk away from the Sacrements? From the Holy Eucharist? From the Blessed Virgin Mother, and all the Saints? Do you want to give up your hope of being with the Lord in Heaven? Because if you continue “studying the Bible” which is JW-speak for allowing them to brainwash you, that’s exactly what you’ll be doing, my friend. DON’T be foolish. STOP studying with your JW “friend.” Despite their claims, their beliefs are 100% WRONG… they are not instructed by Jehovah… their history proves that. Their leaders have made countless predictions as “Jehovah’s Mouthpiece” throughout their brief history. Do you know how many have come true? ZERO. Not one. Why would you want to listen to people who are continually wrong?

Look what they have gotten you to do… question the very DIVINTY of our Lord Jesus Christ. Are you seriously willing to stop believing that Jesus is GOD and accept that he was an angel… no wait… he was “a god”… then he was ONLY a man… that’s right - while on earth they believe that Jesus was just a mere man… not God at all… not even the little “g” god they like to call him. And now that he’s back in heaven he is … I’m not even sure?? An angel once again? But what does it matter because if you become a JW, you’ll have no hope of living with Him anyhow.

Is that what you’re willing to sign up for? Because if you keep “studying” with them, I predict THAT is exactly what will happen.

 

[Fidei]

If you are Catholic, why are you studying the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses? Do you want to become a Jehovah’s Witness? Do you want to walk away from the one true Church that Jesus Christ founded?? Do you want to walk away from the Sacrements? From the Holy Eucharist? From the Blessed Virgin Mother, and all the Saints? Do you want to give up your hope of being with the Lord in Heaven? Because if you continue “studying the Bible” which is JW-speak for allowing them to brainwash you, that’s exactly what you’ll be doing, my friend. DON’T be foolish. STOP studying with your JW “friend.” Despite their claims, their beliefs are 100% WRONG… they are not instructed by Jehovah… their history proves that. Their leaders have made countless predictions as “Jehovah’s Mouthpiece” throughout their brief history. Do you know how many have come true? ZERO. Not one. Why would you want to listen to people who are continually wrong?

Look what they have gotten you to do… question the very DIVINTY of our Lord Jesus Christ. Are you seriously willing to stop believing that Jesus is GOD and accept that he was an angel… no wait… he was “a god”… then he was ONLY a man… that’s right - while on earth they believe that Jesus was just a mere man… not God at all… not even the little “g” god they like to call him. And now that he’s back in heaven he is … I’m not even sure?? An angel once again? But what does it matter because if you become a JW, you’ll have no hope of living with Him anyhow.

Is that what you’re willing to sign up for? Because if you keep “studying” with them, I predict THAT is exactly what will happen.

LOl. what paranoia friend, Im witness witnessing. In a way, i rely on their study of scriptures for me to hit them back with some of ours. Im looking here for sure-fire ways to stump them.

If youre asking, I know most if not all verses regarding the most blessed trinity, it just so happens i wasnt thinking very well when they stumped me regarding that “in the beginning” stuff

 

[yellowbird]

LOl. what paranoia friend, Im witness witnessing. In a way, i rely on their study of scriptures for me to hit them back with some of ours. Im looking here for sure-fire ways to stump them.

If youre asking, I know most if not all verses regarding the most blessed trinity, it just so happens i wasnt thinking very well when they stumped me regarding that “in the beginning” stuff

Not paranoid… realistic. Most JWs are former Catholics. I don’t want to lose any more of my Catholic brothers/sisters to that organization. I’m happy to hear that you want to witness to them… that is wonderful. Just please be careful. Very few who sit down with them initally ever imagine they will one day end up a full fledged Jehovah’s Witness.

 

[Javl]

I had a recent bible study with my JW friend, they said, if Christ was God, how can he have a “Beginning”? as in John 1:1–In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

What’s behind this “beginning”, if Christ Co-exist with God for all eternity?
shouldn’t the word “beginning” have been there at all?

Just asking the plain explanation of this, not counter-verses.

This “beginning” is only to give a reference point for the creation. The key word in this sentence ( John 1:1 ) is “WAS”, which is past tense. This shows that The Word existed before the “beginning”. If the The Word had a beginning, then John 1:1 would have read "In the beginning IS the Word and the Word IS…etc. The Word (God the Son ) was NOT created since He IS the creator.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I think it’s also a language issue.

In Italian, that same verse is:

*“Egli è immagine del Dio invisibile, generato prima di ogni creatura…” *(Col. 1:15)

“Generare” literally means begotten, “generated.” This refers how the Son’s source of being is from the Father (hence why he’s begotten).

The Jehovah’s Witness argument here is weak at best.

 

[SunnaB16]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

Remember that Christ has TWO NATURES. He has His Divine nature and a human nature, so that, in fact, He is fully God and fully Man. Its "BOTH AND"; NOT "EITHER OR". In His Divine nature, He is the Fathers SelfKnowledge; fully God because the Father knows Himself totally.
In His human Nature, He has a human body and a spiritual soul.
As a person, he is God the Son.

Where Scripture says things like: “the man Jesus Christ”, it`s of course referring to His human nature.

**“Christ: creature or Creator?” Hes both.** So, from the orthodox point of view, theres no confusion.

 

[Joshua27]

Points to Consider about the Son

The Son has a different Will from the Father: Luke 22:42 - “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

The Son has not equal authority [authority did not previously exist]: John 10:18 - No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."

The Son says authority was given [authority did not previously exist]: Matthew 28:18 - Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

The Son has not equal knowledge: Matthew 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

The Son was granted Life from the Father [has no life of himself]: John 5:26 - For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

The Son does not seek his own approval/satisfaction: John 5:30 - By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

The Son expresses obedience to the Father: John 5:19 - The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

The Son distinguishes himself from God: Mark 10:18 - Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

The Son is not equal with God: John 14:28 - The Father is greater than I

(a) The Son identifies who is “his” God. (b) The Son is forsaken by his God: Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The Son does not possess his own life in death: Luke 23:46 - Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, **into your hands **I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The Son could not resurrect himself: Acts 2:31 - he looked ahead and spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah: ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, and his flesh did not experience decay.’

God is perfect, but The Son was not perfected until he learned obedience through what he suffered: Hebrews 5:7-9 - During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Creation was made through the Son, but not by him: John 1:3 - God created everything through him[Son], and nothing was created except through him.

The Son is a representation of God: Hebrews 1:3 - The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.

---

Princeton definition of “representation”: a presentation to the mind in the form of an idea or image; a creation that is a visual or tangible rendering of someone or something; the act of representing; standing in for someone or some group and speaking with authority in their behalf; the state of serving as an official and authorized delegate or agent​

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

Concerning “the beginning”…

Satan was there at the beginning too: John 8:44 - For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Satan is called “morning star”: Isaiah 14:12 - How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

There are more “morning stars”: Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jesus is also called “morning star”: Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Question 1: If satan, Jesus, and others are called morning stars, what are the morning stars?

Question 2: If satan was also at the beginning, what point in time represents “the beginning”?

A specific point in time must be qualified, because it’s not enough to say “the beginning of everything” otherwise satan could also be considered co-eternal.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Javl]

I think it’s also a language issue.

In Italian, that same verse is:

"Egli è immagine del Dio invisibile, generato prima di ogni creatura…" (Col. 1:15)

“Generare” literally means begotten, “generated.” This refers how the Son’s source of being is from the Father (hence why he’s begotten).

The Jehovah’s Witness argument here is weak at best.

Era generato non fabricato. Begotten, not created ( made ). Regardless of the language, the meaning is the same. And yes, the JWs have a very weak argument in their trying to prove that Jesus is not God, but a god, and was created. Scripture abounds with proof His divinity which, try as they may, they cannot twist to support their proof.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Points to Consider about the Son

The Son has a different Will from the Father: Luke 22:42 - “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

This shows the He is NOT the father.

The Son has not equal authority [authority did not previously exist]: John 10:18 - No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."

Again, He is distinct from the Father.

The Son says authority was given [authority did not previously exist]: Matthew 28:18 - Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

He recieves His authority from the Father, much as you receive yours from your earthly father.

The Son has not equal knowledge: Matthew 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Nothing wrong with this. Does your father tell you everything?

The Son was granted Life from the Father [has no life of himself]: John 5:26 - For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

Remember, the Son was Begotten of the Father.

The Son does not seek his own approval/satisfaction: John 5:30 - By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

As an obedient Son, He does what the Father wants.

The Son expresses obedience to the Father: John 5:19 - The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Again, the Son was Begotten of the Father and is obedient to Him.

The Son distinguishes himself from God: Mark 10:18 - Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

Here He speaks as a human being, who cannot be compared to God. Remember Jesus possesed two natures, human and divine. ( Believed by all Traditional Christians. )

The Son is not equal with God: John 14:28 - The Father is greater than I.

He is speaking here of His filial relationship to His Father. Isn’t your father greater than you?

(a) The Son identifies who is “his” God. (b) The Son is forsaken by his God: Matthew 27:46 - My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Here He was speaking as a human. What would you say if you were in His place?

The Son does not possess his own life in death: Luke 23:46 - Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, **into your hands **I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Again, He was speaking as a human.

( Continued )

 

[Javl]

( Continued )

The Son could not resurrect himself: Acts 2:31 - he looked ahead and spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah: ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, and his flesh did not experience decay.’

The Son, as God, had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.

God is perfect, but The Son was not perfected until he learned obedience through what he suffered: Hebrews 5:7-9 - During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

The Son, as God, is perfect before all time. As a human He subjected Himself totally to the Father ( He emptied Himself of His divinity ). This is why, as a human like us only more perfect that we ever can be, He learned obedience and offered up prayers and petitions. Again, if you were in His place, what would you do if you knew your future was torture and death?

Creation was made through the Son, but not by him: John 1:3 - God created everything through him[Son], and nothing was created except through him.

John 1:1-3 and Isaih 43:15, 44:2,24 disprove this. There are also many other verses in scripture to disprove your statement. The Son was NOT created, but is begotten of
the Father.

The Son is a representation of God: Hebrews 1:3 - The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.

If the Son is God, then how can He be a representation of God. The Glory of the Son is the Glory of the Father for He had that Glory before all time.​

Princeton definition of “representation”: a presentation to the mind in the form of an idea or image; a creation that is a visual or tangible rendering of someone or something; the act of representing; standing in for someone or some group and speaking with authority in their behalf; the state of serving as an official and authorized delegate or agent

Good definition, but irrevelant.​

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

An analogy or metaphor.

Concerning “the beginning”…

Satan was there at the beginning too: John 8:44 - For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Satan is called “morning star”: Isaiah 14:12 - How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

There are more “morning stars”: Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

All the Angels are “Morning Stars”. Even all those before they followed Satan and fell from earth.

Jesus is also called “morning star”: Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Yes. Used as a metaphor to describe His position.

Question 1: If satan, Jesus, and others are called morning stars, what are the morning stars?

See above.

Question 2: If satan was also at the beginning, what point in time represents “the beginning”?

The beginning of creation and time as we know it.

A specific point in time must be qualified, because it’s not enough to say “the beginning of everything” otherwise satan could also be considered co-eternal.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

See above.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Joshua27]

This shows that He is NOT the father.

A+

Again, He is distinct from the Father.

A+

He recieves His authority from the Father, much as you receive yours from your earthly father.

C…This is a vague answer. Authority means “granting of power to perform an act”, but your answer suggests that power was naturally bestowed upon the Son by default of being the son. If i’m mistaken let me know, but (for instance) my father has authority over several workers as a manager at his job. I don’t possess this authority just because I’m his son, do I.

My grandmother gave authority to my father to complete her yearly property taxes long ago. Only recently did he give me that authority since he moved to another state. And I didn’t receive this authority by virtue of being his son, but only after proving I could perform the act after successfully completing my own taxes several times.

Nothing wrong with this. Does your father tell you everything?

Exactly. So then they’re not a single being, correct?

Remember, the Son was Begotten of the Father.

Psalm 2:7 (KJV) – “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

Acts 13:33 (KJV) – “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”

Heb 1:5 (KJV) – “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”

Heb 5:5 (KJV) – “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.”

Several biblical sources specify a particular point in time when the Son was begotten, meaning there was a point in time when he was not begotten.

As an obedient Son, He does what the Father wants.

A+ Because they’re not a single being.

Again, the Son was Begotten of the Father and is obedient to Him.

***Princeton’s definition of “Begotten”: (of offspring) generated by procreation; “naturally begotten child”.

The Son is a created - and now glorified - being from God.

Here He speaks as a human being, who cannot be compared to God. Remember Jesus possesed two natures, human and divine. ( Believed by all Traditional Christians. )

But in your (continued) response you state that the Son, as a human, was emptied of his divinity. How can He possess two natures as a human if one - specifically His divinity - was emptied? “Empty” means “gone”; not present, correct?

He is speaking here of His filial relationship to His Father. Isn’t your father greater than you?

My point exactly. My father is greater than I because we are not the same being: He is older and wiser and has more authority…and he made me. Father God is greater than the Son. They are not equal nor the same being. Father God is older and wiser and has more authority…and He made the Son.

Here He was speaking as a human. What would you say if you were in His place?

Again, He was speaking as a human.

Yes he was now human, and as human - a creature.

The Son, as God, had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.

Luke 23:46 - Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

You’re avoiding the phrase that’s used [abandoned in hades]. If they are distinct persons, and if the spirit is now in the Father’s hands, how can the Son resurrect himself?

The Son, as God, is perfect before all time. As a human He subjected Himself totally to the Father ( He emptied Himself of His divinity ).

I’m sorry, but that’s not what this passage says…It clearly says that he was “made perfect” through what he suffered “once” is the operative word which means “as soon as” and “not prior”]. If you can provide scripture that says the Son is perfect before all time I will concede, otherwise you are adding to what scripture says.

And to your question (since you ask) I would ask that “this cup be taken from me”…however, it’s would not be my will that’s important, right?