Christ, creature or creator?

[grace_singh]

Joshua ~

those Proverbs verses you quoted refer to “Wisdom”, not to the Messiah.

the passage clearly states at the begining of the chapter that “she” is “Wisdom”. it is not likely that Solomon is urging people to listen to the voice of a female Messiah who has not been incarnate yet.

in Mark, Jesus shows that he has been given by the Father the power to forgive sins, while the Pharisees state in amazement that this Fellow must be blaspheming, as only God can forgive sins. you see, Jesus is God. He has been given this authority by God, the Father, in His incarnate form on earth. it is an authority and a will He has on His own, as His will and the Father’s will are one.

also, read the complete context of John 5:20-23, where Christ says that He (Christ) gives life to whomever He wills, just as the Father gives to whomever He wills, and that we are to honor Him (the Son) just as we honor the Father (God Almighty).

why would Christ Jesus tell us that we ought to honor Him as we honor the Father?

we are not “God the sons and daughters” because we were not with God in the beginning (eternal) and are not ourselves God (John 1:1). we are created being, finite, made in God’s image, but not God, as Christ was and is.

yes, the Father and Son are distinct, as you keep pointing out and yes, there is a hierarchy of authority between Father and Son. the Scriptures indicate this.

yet the Scriptures also indicate that Jesus is God, in flesh. in many, many passages He shows us that He is the same as God the Father, even while being distinct from and under the Father, One with God in nature and will, begotten but not made.

the nuances of Orthodox Christology and the earliest conclusions about Christology (Christ’s human and divine natures and wills, the incarnation, hypostatic union, miaphysitism, etc.) are worth reading, and pouring over.

Christ is not created, and no where in this indicated in Scripture. what we do know is that Christ is from and of the Father Almighty, that He is also One with the Father, eternal, God, Saviour, and Lord. He is God the Son, and only through Him can the Father be known personally.

neither you nor i could tell someone “look at me. if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, and if you have known me, you have known the Father” as we are not God in His totality and uniqueness, in flesh. but Christ did, because He was, and is. again, see the arm analogy.

 

[grace_singh]

In fact in Titus, Paul said 3 times God is the Savior and 3 time he said Jesus is the Savior

in Titus, Paul actually refers to Christ this way :

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14)

there you have it. “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”. note that Paul is not saying “our great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ” but calls Christ both God and Savior.

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua ~

those Proverbs verses you quoted refer to “Wisdom”, not to the Messiah.

the passage clearly states at the begining of the chapter that “she” is "Wisdom". it is not likely that Solomon is urging people to listen to the voice of a female Messiah who has not been incarnate yet.

You bring to the surface some real deep mysteries with this reply, Grace, and I’m going to need you to let go of your limitations as a human being in order to understand what I’m about to share.

We believe, all scripture is inspired of God, correct Grace?

Well one of the biggest prophecies of Christianity is found in Isaiah 7:14, where God says, “as a sign: a child shall be born of a virgin; and you shall call his name Immanuel”. This is the main prophecy that we believe speaks of the Messiah [Jesus], right?

Well did you know that later in Isaiah 8:3, a child IS indeed born from a maiden and his name was called Ma-her-shal-al-hash-baz, and it fulfilled God’s promised sign? Please read all of Isaiah 7 & 8.

I could argue that God wasn’t referring to Jesus coming at all. But surely, this was also speaking about Jesus as he was also born the same way, hundreds of years later. How is this possible?

---

**Time is a distance between two things, and only WE are bound by this distance.

Our words are limited; confined to the moment we say them…But to God, this distance (time) is miniscule; so His words echo longly and loudly throughout its length.**

[Imagine being at one end of a long hall, and you yell to your friend at the other end. Your words were carried its length.]

This is also how the Genesis creation can span six days to God but be measured in billions of years to us, as time is relative.

---

Now this is the only way His Words in Isaiah 7:14 can be - what we call - “prophetic” and apply to both Ma-her-shal-al-hash-baz in the moment they were spoken, as well as Jesus later on…only if we understand this concept.

1. Take - for instance - my last post to Dokimas, where I talk about Abram and Isaac. On the surface, this event details God testing his servant to see if Abram would honor Him at the cost of his child. But this event was a prophetic message that detailed what God, the Father, was going to do with His Son, for us.
2. In the story of Joseph (the dream interpreter), he was betrayed by his brothers [his kind] and sold into bondage (and potential death) only to ultimately become Lord over them all. Interestingly prophetic, as Jesus was also a (seed of) Joseph who had the same happened to him.
3. Israel was in bondage at the hands of Egypt and one came from God (Moses) who freed them from their slavery. This was prophetic as Jesus came to free (spiritual) Israel from its bondage.

Weren’t these words of wisdom? And weren’t they carried much further than the instance of time in which they were said? Aren’t these the Words of God that we call “prophetic”? If so, Who is the Word of God?

In Proverbs, wisdom says ,“be obedient…” and also “I was formed before the world”. If these are words of wisdom, who is Wisdom?

Answer: 1 Corinthians 1:30 - “But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,”

Now take care not to limit God with our gender labels.

Human beings are “man” and “woman”, but what is God the Father? Can he be limited by a human trait? If not, what of his Offspring (prior to incarnation)?

Every words spoken by God is “prophetic” (and has purpose):

• God gave His name to Moses: “I will be what I will be” [Yehovah]
• Gabriel told Mary to name her Son Yehshua [Jesus] which means “I will be Salvation” [Yeh = “I will be” + Shua = “Salvation; to Save”].

Prior to incarnation, “the Son” is probably better discribed as “the Offspring” of the Most High. “The Offspring” was not “the Savior” just yet but was “The Word” and “Wisdom”…and only when the time came to save us had he come in his Father’s name “I will be” (+ “Salvation”) and was annointed “Messiah” (“Christ”).

God changes one’s name to suit their new purpose; Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, etc.

We can only speak in terms of “he, she, it, they” when refering to another because that’s all we know to use in our language.

(To be continued…)

 

[Joshua27]

in Mark, Jesus shows that he has been given by the Father the power to forgive sins, while the Pharisees state in amazement that this Fellow must be blaspheming, as only God can forgive sins. you see, Jesus is God. He has been given this authority by God, the Father, in His incarnate form on earth. it is an authority and a will He has on His own, as His will and the Father’s will are one.

By this I mean no disrespect to your Grace…I actually explained my argument for these points a few posts ago. And I don’t think it would be beneficial to waste space or time by retyping everything I’ve already typed. Please read my last few post to Dokimas for my argument on these points.

also, read the complete context of John 5:20-23, where Christ says that He (Christ) gives life to whomever He wills, just as the Father gives to whomever He wills, and that we are to honor Him (the Son) just as we honor the Father (God Almighty).

why would Christ Jesus tell us that we ought to honor Him as we honor the Father?

Distinguishing between “honor” and “worship”; of course all should honor Jesus. Again, being a creature does not take anything away from the Son. Think about it this way: I honor my parents (Commandment # 5) but I don’t worship them…my worship goes to God (commandment #1). Showing honor to my parents shows honor to God [because he gave them authority/charge/position over me], but my parents are not God.

John 5:22 - “he [Father] has committed (given) all judgement (authority) to the Son.”
John 5:23 - “…he that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”

we are not “God the sons and daughters” because we were not with God in the beginning (eternal) and are not ourselves God (John 1:1).

True, we were not with God at the beginning, but we are sons and daughters of God once we are baptised in his Holy Spirit:

Acts 17:29 - Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver or stone graven by art and man’s device.

2 Corinthians 6:18 - And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Gal. 4: 5 - To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons [and daughters].

Gal. 4: 7 - Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son [or daughter]; and if a son [or daughter], then an heir of God through Christ.

1 Jn. 3: 2 - Beloved, now are we the sons [and daughters] of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be [transformed into]: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

we are created being, finite, made in God’s image, but not God, as Christ was and is.

Yes, and true; we are made in the image of God. But Colossians 1:15 also says, "[The Son] Who is the image of the invisible God. He came in order to reveal the Father in his own person."

yes, the Father and Son are distinct, as you keep pointing out and yes, there is a hierarchy of authority between Father and Son. the Scriptures indicate this.

yet the Scriptures also indicate that Jesus is God, in flesh. in many, many passages He shows us that He is the same as God the Father, even while being distinct from and under the Father, One with God in nature and will, begotten but not made. [Please share these new passages if I haven’t gone over them yet.]

the nuances of Orthodox Christology and the earliest conclusions about Christology…are worth reading, and pouring over.

Christ is not created, and no where in this indicated in Scripture. what we do know is that Christ is from and of the Father Almighty, that He is also One with the Father, eternal, God, Saviour, and Lord. He is God the Son, and only through Him can the Father be known personally.

But I’ve indicated multiple sources, Grace…

neither you nor i could tell someone “look at me. if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, and if you have known me, you have known the Father” as we are not God in His totality and uniqueness, in flesh. but Christ did, because He was, and is. again, see the arm analogy.

Ahh…now we get to a great point in the conversation!

People often tell me [as I’m almost sure you’ve heard said (either about you or your someone you know)] that I am my dad. I often fight them on this (attempting to remain an “individual”), saying “No! I am me!” Of course, they shoot me down and say, “No…you are so much your father. [We] should know…[we’ve] known him for years.” So (eventually) I must accept the truth, right? I am my father.

If we were to meet face to face; go have lunch and talk for a while…laughing and joking around. You would get to know me; learn my personality, thoughts, character and very being.

Then if you were to meet my dad later on, you would find that he and I are exactly the same. But since he (my dad) was first, the person you really met earlier was him, through me…even though he and I are not the same.

---

Now, if we’ve been born again and have received the Holy Spirit, we we are sons and daughters of God; we SHOULD - indeed - be able to say “if you get to know me, you get to know the Father”, as this is the purpose of the kindgom of God.

In John 17, Jesus prayed that [those he’d been given] will be one with He and the Father just as He and the Father are one.

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one.

 

[Dokimas]

in Titus, Paul actually refers to Christ this way :

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14)

there you have it. “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”. note that Paul is not saying “our great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ” but calls Christ both God and Savior.

That’s a wonderful verse. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Dokimas]

Worshiping God Only

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matthew 4:10 Then said Jesus unto him, Get away, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shalt you serve

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus is Worshiped – and allows worship

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if You will, You can make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him,

Luke 24:52 And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God

 

[Fidei]

Worshiping God Only

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matthew 4:10 Then said Jesus unto him, Get away, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shalt you serve

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

note that all these verses say nothing about ONLY the father can be worshiped. It only states that the Father SHOULD be worshiped!

 

[grace_singh]

Joshua ~

think about it, brother. how do you honor God? all the ways you honor God the Father, you ought to honor Christ, as well.

look at John 5:20-23. the Son says that just as the Father gives life to whomever He wills, so the Son gives life to whomever He wills. and that we are to honor Him as we honor the Father. meaning the Son has a will of His own, the same as the will of the Father.

and a line or two later, that we should honor the Son as we honor the Father.

Joshua, no where else in Scripture does any person indicate that we see and know the Father Himself when we look at and talk to them. only Christ does this. Christ is the same as the Father, even while being distinct fom Him.

when we are joined to Christ and the Father by God’s grace, we can not even then point to ourselves and say “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father”. that would be blasphemy. we can say “i am one with Christ and with the Father because of Christ”, but we can not introduce ourselves as the fullness of God in flesh.

that Christ is called the Wisdom of God does not link Him to the Wisdom of Proverbs 8, who is clearly female, and a characterization of a virtue. in all other Scripture passages Messiah is refered to as a male Person- the Branch, the Shepherd, the King, the Lord, and the Child. never as female. and Jews have also consistently interpreted these verses as Messianic, too.

Isaiah and the Messiah

the Bible is clear that Christ is God, the Son. John 1:1, 14 reveals the in the begining the Word was with and was God, and that the Word who was God became flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[Dokimas]

note that all these verses say nothing about ONLY the father can be worshiped. It only states that the Father SHOULD be worshiped!

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are to be worshiped.​

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Looking at this thread title, didn’t we settle all this at Nicaea?

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua ~

think about it, brother. how do you honor God? all the ways you honor God the Father, you ought to honor Christ, as well.

look at John 5:20-23. the Son says that just as the Father gives life to whomever He wills, so the Son gives life to whomever He wills. and that we are to honor Him as we honor the Father. meaning the Son has a will of His own, the same as the will of the Father.

and a line or two later, that we should honor the Son as we honor the Father.

But isn’t that what I said, Grace? Give all honor where honor is due to the Son (as he has been given ALL authority of heaven and earth from our Father). He [the Son] is the being in charge…and praise the Father for His just, and right decision to give all authority to the “firstborn of all creation”; from whom all goodness and life flows.

Joshua,** no where else in Scripture does any person** indicate that we see and know the Father Himself when we look at and talk to them. only Christ does this. Christ is the same as the Father, even while being distinct fom Him.

What does it mean to be the body of Christ? Shouldn’t people see Christ when they look upon either of us? If Christ said “if you see me, you see the Father”, what does that mean for we who are labeled “the body of Christ”?

I guess I’m confused about what it means to be a son or daughter and heir; about the meaning Jesus mean when he said ‘and I have given them the glory you [Father] have given me…that all would be one’; of where Jesus told his disciples that they’d do greater works than He; and how there would be a marriage supper {“Marriage” which means "to mix; “to become one”}

when we are joined to Christ and the Father by God’s grace, we can not even then point to ourselves and say “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father”. that would be blasphemy. we can say “i am one with Christ and with the Father because of Christ”, but we can not introduce ourselves as the fullness of God in flesh.

But either Jesus means what he says or he doesn’t; either he says “we’re one” or we’re not really…just like either He meant “take eat…this is my body” or not really. Either Jesus says what he means and means what he says or…?

Let me ask you: Just what do you think is the point of all of this, Grace? What’s the point of having the Father in me and in you…or Christ in me and in you…if it’s not to show others when they look upon us, Christ and the Father? There is nothing without purpose, right? So why even dwell on our inward parts at all…if they (clearly) already have homes (in heaven), and if we’ve been saved?

In scripture it says “…no longer a servant but a son, and as a son, an heir”. The whole point of this; the whole point of “us” was that the Father wanted a family…not servants…but in order for us to inherit sonship and daughtership, we must be proven worthy of that reward.

that Christ is called the Wisdom of God does not link Him to the **Wisdom of Proverbs **8, who is clearly female, and a characterization of a virtue. in all other Scripture passages Messiah is refered to as a male Person- the Branch, the Shepherd, the King, the Lord, and the Child. never as female. and Jews have also consistently interpreted these verses as Messianic, too.

Isaiah and the Messiah

…And yet a patriarchal nation [Israel] - lead by men - is often attributed the characterization “She”, or labeled “bride” or “woman”. And even today, many attribute the Catholic Church to a “female” entity even though its doesn’t have a true gender…and also many people refer to their cars as “she”…But that Christ is actually called the Wisdom of God does not link Him to (actually) being Wisdom refered to because Solomon used the characterization “she”?

Let me also note, Grace, that the writings of Proverbs are well before the prophesies of Isaiah (concerning the Messiah)…but we clearly know that “the Offspring” of God has existed long before our beginning; before Proverbs and before prophesies of Isaiah.

the Bible is clear that Christ is God, the Son. John 1:1, 14 reveals the in the begining the Word was with and was God, and that the Word who was God became flesh and dwelt among us.

Well I think its best to leave my remarks here, you know…because I sense us about to go in circles, Grace. I’ll just conclude by saying that no where in scripture does it state the label “God, the Son”…no where. What it often says is “the Son of God”…and there is a big difference in theologies when comparing these two labels.

I guess I’ll end by saying, if you truly believe I am highly mistaken about all of this the best thing all can do for me is pray that the truth is revealed to me. I’d greatly appreciate your prayers, Grace.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

ever watch a dog chasing its tail and think, “Id never do that”? After a year of debating this subject, I felt “maybe I would do that”

 

[Javl]

ever watch a dog chasing its tail and think, “Id never do that”? After a year of debating this subject, I felt “maybe I would do that”

I gave up chasing my tail, I can never catch up to it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[grace_singh]

I guess I’ll end by saying, if you truly believe I am highly mistaken about all of this the best thing all can do for me is pray that the truth is revealed to me. I’d greatly appreciate your prayers, Grace.

ok brother, i will certainly pray for you, and i do greatly appreciate your respectful and intelligent manner of debate.

God bless you, Joshua, and give you His peace.