Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

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Not once is Jesus mentioned above by name…

Must we all convert out of fear and dishonesty? Doesn’t God know the heart after all? Who are we fooling?
 
This is not my area of expertise, but Dave Armstrong, Mark Bonocore and others have done a pretty thorough job of documenting the fact that the Eastern Church was in heresy for hundreds of years over one issue or another, and each time, Rome (which has never fallen) sorted the matter out.
Actually, God raised up champions in the East who sorted the matter out.
 
Jesus established Peter as the ruler of His Church in John 21 where the Greek *poimanao * - to rule is used.
As I’ve mentioned before, in the context of “sheep”, the Greek word “poimaino” means “shepherd”.
 
No, not at all! Only that they are not now to be regarded as being in such a state.
Again (see my post #447 also), has anyone presented such an argument?

guano, I think you’re misreading what people are saying, and attacking strawmen.
 
Yes.

Notice in Galatians 2 that Paul confronts Peter who began separating himself from Gentile believers after some men came from Jerusalem. And this was after the council!
Hi Randy: Yes, Galatians was what I was thinking of along with Acts and the Council, so I thought it had to be after the council in Acts.
 
Yes that’s one faith belief on the matter. Or another is keys bind and loosen and not only Peter was given those powers. And Peter refers to the person who gave the profession of faith at that time. It can all make for interesting discussion as can other matters of faith. But the bottom line is it comes down to belief and faith and faith and belief can’t be proven. All anyone can truly do while on this earth is walk by faith and not by sight until we see Him. Then we will know truth with certainty and in faith trust in His understanding of our hearts and minds and in His mercy where we are wrong.
I do not believe that Jesus left us adrift as pilgrims in the world not knowing the “Truth with Certainty”. He said of Himself that He is the “Truth” and that He would reveal Himself to His disciples, and send His Spirit to lead them into “all Truth”. I think taking the position that we cannot know the truth for certainty in this life is just a passive way of rejecting what He has revealed.

Jesus established a Church with authority, and commissioned them to exercise that authroity on earth. When He directed the disciples to take their disputes “to the Churh” He meant that it would always be clear how the One Church He founded could be identified.
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Not once is Jesus mentioned above by name…

Must we all convert out of fear and dishonesty? Doesn’t God know the heart after all? Who are we fooling?
You so misunderstand Christianity. I am sorry for you.
And if you re-read your own post, and read the Catechism, and the docs of Vatican 2, you will see that Christ is the source and summit of the Church, and that includes Peter’s charism (which is exactly what the Church calls his authority). A charism is a gift from God, not just the temporal exercise of power, although there have been times of temporal exercise of power as well. The Church’s leadership has been mixed in with temporal and political matters to varying degrees over the centuries. And yes, Popes have abused their office just like every other human being abuses God’s gifts.
So, are we to smash our gifts to bits like a child every time we slip and fall? Or do we carry on in Christ?

I invite you to take some time and read what the Church really teaches, cause all that is happening here is the stubborn volleyball of opinion. Have you ever taken the time to read the Catechism? Or the documents of Vatican 2?
 
I posted this on another thread
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
You have not specified which particular segment of Protestantism you are a part of, but here are a wide variety of Protestant scholars who recognize that there is a connection between Mt. 16:18-19 and Is. 22:20-22.
I’m not so much interested in the misinterpretation of a lot of so called scholars. What I am interested in is what the bible says on the subject and in particular what Peter says.

1Peter2
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petrah) of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Here Peter himself says that Jesus is the rock (petrah). The word used in Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petrah) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter also refers to Isaiah 8:
13 Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Can there be any doubt that Peter himself is telling us that it is Christ who is the rock (petrah) upon which He builds His church?

After this post the thread was closed, curious!
 
Matthew 16: 18-19 is where Jesus says Peter is the rock and also where Peter is given the keys to bind and loose.

Acts 15: 6-11 is where Peter says that God made a choice among us, that Peter should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers.
 
As I’ve mentioned before, in the context of “sheep”, the Greek word “poimaino” means “shepherd”.
In the context of Jesus speaking to His Royal Steward, it means to rule.

Poimaino
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
poy-mah’-ee-no Verb

Definition
to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
to rule, govern
of rulers
to furnish pasture for food
to nourish
to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
 
I posted this on another thread

I’m not so much interested in the misinterpretation of a lot of so called scholars. What I am interested in is what the bible says on the subject and in particular what Peter says.
“So-called”? Hilarious.
Can there be any doubt that Peter himself is telling us that it is Christ who is the rock (petrah) upon which He builds His church?
After this post the thread was closed, curious!
First, It was my thread, and I contacted the mod and recommended that the thread be closed. It had reached a dead end.

Second, I agree with what you point out about Peter proclaiming Christ as the rock in the context of that verse, but in the context of Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus is the builder and Peter is the rock.

So, the mistake you are making is in assuming that because Jesus is the rock in one verse, He must be the rock in every verse. That’s not how to read scripture.

Understanding the Use of Metaphor in the New Testament

Many non-Catholics object to the idea that Peter was the rock upon which Jesus promised to build the Church, and they offer various alternative interpretations of the rock as being Jesus himself, Peter’s confession of faith, and the curious hybrid Peter and his confession. To support their denial of Jesus’ establishment of Peter as the head of the Church, non-Catholics frequently cite other scripture passages in which Jesus is called the “chief cornerstone” and the apostles collectively being described as foundation stones. These arguments are based upon a misunderstanding of the use of metaphors within the pages of scripture. Author Stephen Ray, himself a former Evangelical and convert to Catholicism, addressed this problem in his book, Upon This Rock:

“In this metaphorical description, Jesus himself could not be the foundation, because in this illustration he presents himself as the builder. The following is very important. In Scripture Jesus is variously depicted as the foundation (1 Cor. 3:11), the builder (Mt. 16:18), the cornerstone (Acts 4:11), and the temple itself (Rev. 21:22). We also see the apostles and/or believers as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, Rev. 21:14), the builders (1 Cor. 3:10), the stones, lithos, not petra (1 Pet. 2:5), the building (1 Cor. 3:9), and the temple (Eph. 2:21). Many illustrations are used to explain various aspects of the Church.

One cannot simply substitute one descriptive figure of speech for another in any one illustration thereby mixing metaphors. It does great violence to the textual illustration itself and is a good example of roughshod “proof-texting”, wrongly “dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15).

The Bible does not set up a dichotomy—either Jesus or Peter; rather, it presents us with both Jesus and Peter as foundation stones. Jesus is establishing the man who will be the focal point of unity within the Church, the foundation. He who builds upon sand has a structure that crumbles (Mt. 7:24-27). Jesus builds his Church upon the rock of his choice, and, by his protection, the Church has stood the test of time. The powers of hell have failed to destroy or corrupt her” (Stephen Ray, Upon this Rock, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999], 36.)

In this same book, Ray also cites Protestant George Salmon, author of The Infallibility of the Church which he wrote to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the matter of metaphorical usage, Salmon wrote at length:

“It is undoubtedly the doctrine of Scripture that Christ is the only foundation [of the Church]: “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Yet we must remember that the same metaphor may be used to illustrate different truths, and so, according to circumstances, may have different significations. The same Paul who has called Christ the only foundation, tells his Ephesian converts (2:20):—“Ye are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.” And in like manner we read (Rev. 21:14):—“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.” How is it that there can be no other foundation but Christ, and yet that the Apostles are spoken of as foundations? Plainly, because the metaphor is used with different applications. Christ alone is that foundation, from being joined to which the whole building of the Church derives its unity and stability, and gains strength to defy all the assaults of hell. But, in the same manner as any human institution is said to be founded by those men to whom it owes its origin, so we may call those men the foundation of the Church whom God honoured by using them as His instruments in the establishment of it; who were themselves laid as the first living stones in that holy temple, and on whom the other stones of that temple were laid; for it was on their testimony that others received the truth, so that our faith rests on theirs; and (humanly speaking) it is because they believed that we believe. So, again, in like manner, we are forbidden to call anyone on earth our Father, “for one is our Father which is in heaven.” And yet, in another sense, Paul did not scruple to call himself the spiritual father of those whom he had begotten in the Gospel. You see, then, that the fact that Christ is called the rock, and that on Him the Church is built, is no hindrance to Peter’s also being, in a different sense, called rock, and being said to be the foundation of the Church; so that I consider there is no ground for the fear entertained by some, in ancient and in modern times, that, by applying the words personally to Peter, we should infringe on the honour due to Christ alone.” (George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church [London: John Murray, 1914], 338-339).
 
Matthew 16: 18-19 is where Jesus says Peter is the rock and also where Peter is given the keys to bind and loose.
In the passage there are two words translated from the Greek for rock. Petros is the word used for Peter. Wherever you see the word Peter in the bible it is translated Petros. The other word is petra. This word is never used as Peter’s name. It is used here though.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual **Rock **(petrah) that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and here

1Peter2
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petrah) of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Acts 15: 6-11 is where Peter says that God made a choice among us, that Peter should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers.
Jesus sent all the disciples to preach the good news to the world.

Matt.28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Also Paul

Acts18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
 
In the passage there are two words translated from the Greek for rock. Petros is the word used for Peter. Wherever you see the word Peter in the bible it is translated Petros. The other word is petra. This word is never used as Peter’s name. It is used here though.
What you’re missing is that it was Jesus himself who said that Simon is the rock… YOU ARE PETER!! (which means YOU, SIMON, are ROCK) AND ON THIS ROCK (THIS rock, not any other rock, and not Myself) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH (I, Jesus, will build it, not you, Peter)

John 1: 42 tells us that Jesus gives Simon the name Peter (Cephas) which is from kepha (rock in Aramaic), petra (rock in Greek)

petra is the feminine version of petros and wouldn’t be used for a masculine name.
Matthew 16: 18-19 is where Jesus says Peter is the rock and also where Peter is given the keys to bind and loose.

Acts 15: 6-11 is where Peter says that God made a choice among us, that Peter should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers.
Besides this, even St Paul uses Cephas to refer to Peter. But at the end of the day I can only say what I truly believe… the Holy Spirit will be the one to guide you in your faith if you have an open heart. God bless!
 
in the passage there are two words translated from the greek for rock. Petros is the word used for peter. Wherever you see the word peter in the bible it is translated petros. The other word is petra. This word is never used as peter’s name. It is used here though.

1 corinthians 10:4
and did all drink the same spiritual drink: For they drank of that spiritual **rock **(petrah) that followed them: And that rock was christ.

And here

1peter2
4 to whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of god, and precious,
5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to god by jesus christ.
6 wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, behold, i lay in sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 unto you therefore which believe he is precious: But unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petrah) of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: Whereunto also they were appointed.

Jesus sent all the disciples to preach the good news to the world.

Matt.28:16 then the eleven disciples went away into galilee, into a mountain where jesus had appointed them.
17 and when they saw him, they worshipped him: But some doubted.
18 and jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever i have commanded you: And, lo, i am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Also paul

acts18:6 and when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, your blood be upon your own heads; i am clean; from henceforth i will go unto the gentiles.
[sign]post #513[/sign]
 
You so misunderstand Christianity. I am sorry for you.
And if you re-read your own post, and read the Catechism, and the docs of Vatican 2, you will see that Christ is the source and summit of the Church, and that includes Peter’s charism (which is exactly what the Church calls his authority). A charism is a gift from God, not just the temporal exercise of power, although there have been times of temporal exercise of power as well. The Church’s leadership has been mixed in with temporal and political matters to varying degrees over the centuries. And yes, Popes have abused their office just like every other human being abuses God’s gifts.
So, are we to smash our gifts to bits like a child every time we slip and fall? Or do we carry on in Christ?

I invite you to take some time and read what the Church really teaches, cause all that is happening here is the stubborn volleyball of opinion. Have you ever taken the time to read the Catechism? Or the documents of Vatican 2?
I have read them both and then some. While there are some re-definitions, there are no retractions.

I’m not talking about abuses. People are sinful, that is not my point at all. Could you point where any of my posts says this?

Not a single poster has addressed the actual issues and inconsistencies I have brought up.

No matter how many times I read the Catechism, it does not do anything to the changes and inconsistencies and contradictions between the See of Rome and those first 1,000 years of Church history. Saying I’m wrong or I don’t get it without a compelling argumentation and actual facts will do nothing.

You don’t have to be sorry for me. I welcome the prayers but not the pity.

I am not confused, there is no reconciliation in the issues I have brought. Unless they are ignored. Which I can’t get my mind to do.
 
Well, that is what a lot of Protestants believe, but since it probably is of no interest to anyone around here, I will just let this little thread die a lonely,miserable death. Sigh.
If Christ didn’t make Peter the leader, then why did he rename Simon to Peter? Why didn’t he rename all of them Peter?

Peter I, Peter II, Peter III, Peter IV, Peter V, Peter VI, Peter VII, Peter VIII, Peter IX, Peter X, Peter XI, Peter XII? If they are all rocks, then they should all be Peter. Or named like this Simon Peter, John Peter, James Peter, Matthew Peter, etc.

Instead Christ only named one to be the Rock.

Good leaders are not always the best men, but they are often the ones who have the courage and/or fortitude to do what’s necessary or what they believe is right.

Peter had the courage to be crucified upside down. He also had the courage to step out of the boat and go alone to be with Christ. This scene in the Bible is very symbolic of the job of the Pope; to walk the path to Christ, showing us the way even if no one else follows.

God Bless
 
Second, I agree with what you point out about Peter proclaiming Christ as the rock in the context of that verse, but in the context of Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus is the builder and Peter is the rock.

So, the mistake you are making is in assuming that because Jesus is the rock in one verse, He must be the rock in every verse. That’s not how to read scripture.
Ok, let’s stick with Matt.16. I pointed this out before but you seem to ignore it. The word for Peter is petros. Wherever you see the word Peter in the bible it is translated from the word petros. Matthew however does not use this word in verse 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock(petrah) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. That is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock (petrah) that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Now Matthew could have used petros in both cases. He could have used the word Kepha which is Aramaic for rock, the language that Jesus spoke. He did not. He used petros and petrah and it is my contention that he did this so that there would be no mistaking what he is talking about. So I’m not assuming anything. I’m simply reading the passage as Matthew intended it to be read.
 
I have read them both and then some. While there are some re-definitions, there are no retractions.

I’m not talking about abuses. People are sinful, that is not my point at all. Could you point where any of my posts says this?

Not a single poster has addressed the actual issues and inconsistencies I have brought up.

No matter how many times I read the Catechism, it does not do anything to the changes and inconsistencies and contradictions between the See of Rome and those first 1,000 years of Church history. Saying I’m wrong or I don’t get it without a compelling argumentation and actual facts will do nothing.

You don’t have to be sorry for me. I welcome the prayers but not the pity.

I am not confused, there is no reconciliation in the issues I have brought. Unless they are ignored. Which I can’t get my mind to do.
I did a bit of research. Your old posts reveal that you were making some of the same arguments in almost the same words back in 2011.

What exactly are you discerning at this point? Seems to me you’re pretty sure…
 
What you’re missing is that it was Jesus himself who said that Simon is the rock… YOU ARE PETER!! (which means YOU, SIMON, are ROCK) AND ON THIS ROCK (THIS rock, not any other rock, and not Myself) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH (I, Jesus, will build it, not you, Peter)

John 1: 42 tells us that Jesus gives Simon the name Peter (Cephas) which is from kepha (rock in Aramaic), petra (rock in Greek)

petra is the feminine version of petros and wouldn’t be used for a masculine name.
Wherever you see the name Peter in the New Testament it is translated from the word petros.
Besides this, even St Paul uses Cephas to refer to Peter. But at the end of the day I can only say what I truly believe… the Holy Spirit will be the one to guide you in your faith if you have an open heart. God bless!
But it’s not used in Matthew 16:18 petros and petra are.
 
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