Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

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Ok, let’s stick with Matt.16. I pointed this out before but you seem to ignore it. The word for Peter is petros. Wherever you see the word Peter in the bible it is translated from the word petros. Matthew however does not use this word in verse 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock(petrah) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. That is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock (petrah) that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Now Matthew could have used petros in both cases. He could have used the word Kepha which is Aramaic for rock, the language that Jesus spoke. He did not. He used petros and petrah and it is my contention that he did this so that there would be no mistaking what he is talking about. So I’m not assuming anything. I’m simply reading the passage as Matthew intended it to be read.
Ah…the petros/petra question. Okay, I can clear this up for you.

First, I’m going to make some clarifying remarks about the Greek. Then, I will provide you with some Greek scholars who have weighed in on the subject.

Petros and Petra–Much Ado About Nothing

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while “rock” is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, “You will be called Cephas”). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: “You are Kepha, and upon this *kepha *I will build my Church.”

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word *kepha *has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of *kepha *in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. It would be like calling a man Stephanie instead of Stephen. So Matthew put a masculine ending on the word, and Simon became Petros, not Petra. Make sense?

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words *petros *and *petra *were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of “small stone” and “large rock” in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: “You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.”

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, “and the Rock was Christ” though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from “Rock . . . rock.”

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.

(cont.)
 
Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

“The word Peter petros, meaning ‘rock,’ (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus’ follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter.” (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)

“Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon’s nickname “Peter” (Petros = rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus’ declaration, “You are Peter”, parallels Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ”, as if to say, “Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are.” The expression “this rock” almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following “the Christ” in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word “rock” (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification.” (The New American Commentary: Matthew, vol. 22 (Nashville: Broadman, 1992), pages 251-252, JPK pages 31-32)

Craig S. Keener (Protestant Evangelical)

“‘You are Peter,’ Jesus says (16:18), paralleling Peter’s ‘You are the Christ’ (16:16). He then plays on Simon’s nickname, ‘Peter,’ which is roughly the English ‘Rocky’: Peter is ‘rocky,’ and on this rock Jesus would build his church (16:18)…Protestants…have sometimes argued that Peter’s name in Greek (petros) differs from the Greek term for rock used here (petra)…But by Jesus’ day the terms were usually interchangeable, and the original Aramaic form of Peter’s nickname that Jesus probably used (kephas) means simply ‘rock.’ Further, Jesus does not say, ‘You are Peter, but on this rock I will build my church’…the copulative kai almost always means ‘and’… Jesus’ teaching is the ultimate foundation for disciples (7:24-27; cf. 1 Cor 3:11), but here Peter functions as the foundation rock as the apostles and prophets do in Ephesians 2:20-21…Jesus does not simply assign this role arbitrarily to Peter, however; Peter is the ‘rock’ because he is the one who confessed Jesus as the Christ in this context (16:15-16)…” (Keener, A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew [Eerdmans, 1999], page 426-427)

John Peter Lange (Protestant)

The Saviour, no doubt, used in both clauses the Aramaic word kepha (hence the Greek Kephas applied to Simon, John i.42; comp. 1 Cor. i.12; iii.22; ix.5; Gal. ii.9), which means rock and is used both as a proper and a common noun… The proper translation then would be: “Thou art Rock, and upon this rock”, etc.” (Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: The Gospel According to Matthew, vol. 8 [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976], page 293, JPK page 19)

If you need more evidence, I have twenty-five quotes like these. Just let me know which denomination you prefer.
 
I did a bit of research. Your old posts reveal that you were making some of the same arguments in almost the same words back in 2011.

What exactly are you discerning at this point? Seems to me you’re pretty sure…
I thought I’d be able to work these issues out. I was wrong.

Read the Catechism, go to Mass regularly, get involved in the Church, Pray constantly, I lost a lot of people I thought were friends when I reverted. You don’t know how much I am searching. These are not arguments from an angry person lashing back at the Church. At this point they are well thought out and out of emotion. These things are irreconcilable if I am to be honest with myself and the Church. I’d rather be honest than a hypocrite.
 
Have all of those Protestant authors converted to Catholicism?

Or is that argumentation not enough even for them? 😃
 
Wherever you see the name Peter in the New Testament it is translated from the word petros.

But it’s not used in Matthew 16:18 petros and petra are.
Oscar Cullman (Lutheran)

“The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words. On the other hand, only the fairly assured Aramaic original of the saying enables us to assert with confidence the formal and material identity between petra and petros: petra = Kepha = petros….Since Peter, the rock of the Church, is thus given by Christ Himself, the master of the house (Is. 22:22; Rev. 3:7), the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he is the human mediator of the resurrection, and he has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection…The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in view of the probably different setting of the story…For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art Rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom He has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Cullmann, article on “Rock” (petros, petra) trans. and ed. by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [Eerdmans Publishing, 1968], volume 6, page 98, 107, 108)
 
Have all of those Protestant authors converted to Catholicism?

Or is that argumentation not enough even for them? 😃
They may have any number of concerns about Catholicism, but Peter being the rock of Mt. 16:18-19 is not one of them.

:dancing:
 
Wherever you see the name Peter in the New Testament it is translated from the word petros.

But it’s not used in Matthew 16:18 petros and petra are.
I believe it is sort of like other languages, in which you have to change the gender to suit the sentence. I’m not a language scholar though so I’m just saying what I truly believe. I can’t explain how exactly as I haven’t analyzed it to death or anything, but everything truly makes sense to me this way. My faith is very strong and I truly believe that God has put me on the right path. I can only say that the Holy Spirit is the one to guide us when there is any misunderstanding so just put your trust in God and pray and let Him do the rest. 🙂

God bless!
 
I believe it is sort of like other languages, in which you have to change the gender to suit the sentence. I’m not a language scholar though so I’m just saying what I truly believe. I can’t explain how exactly as I haven’t analyzed it to death or anything, but everything truly makes sense to me this way. My faith is very strong and I truly believe that God has put me on the right path. I can only say that the Holy Spirit is the one to guide us when there is any misunderstanding so just put your trust in God and pray and let Him do the rest. 🙂

God bless!
Amen!

And it’s nice to know that there are solid scriptural, historical and logical reasons for being Catholic, as well.
 
I just came across this thread and tried to skim through it, so sorry if something similar is already posted.

This is just something I noticed while studying Judaism. I put two and two together, and it seems to backs church teaching:

In the Old Testament only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies - into the presence of God himself. The Day of Atonement was the only day of the year on which this happened.

The High Priest actually went into the Holy of Holies 4 times on that day. The first time was to offer incense before the Lord. The second time he brought blood to atone for his own sin. The third time he brought blood to purify the sanctuary. After all of this, he left his garments in the Holy of Holies to signify that the atonement was complete.

After the Day of Atonement ceremonies were complete, the High Priest went back into the Holy of Holies the fourth time, for two purposes: To clean up the ashes from the incense ceremony and to retrieve the garments he had left inside the Holy of Holies. (remember: only the High Priest could EVER enter–even for mundane tasks such as these.)

Now this is where it gets interesting:

On the Day of Resurrection, we see Peter and John running to the tomb because they had been told by the women that Jesus was not there.

The scripture in the Gospel of John explicitly says that both Peter and 'the disciple that Jesus loved (usually thought to be John Himself) ran to the tomb and John got there first, but did not go in. It says that when Peter came, he went into the tomb and found the garments that had been left.

Why didn’t John go into the tomb first, since he got there first? And why does the scripture say that Peter went in first and found the garments? (the scripture seems to mention explicit details if they’re important). Remember, that only the High Priest could go back in and retrieve the garments. Was God confirming that Peter was the chosen successor?
That’s my opinion anyhow.

 
I believe it is sort of like other languages, in which you have to change the gender to suit the sentence. I’m not a language scholar though so I’m just saying what I truly believe. I can’t explain how exactly as I haven’t analyzed it to death or anything, but everything truly makes sense to me this way. My faith is very strong and I truly believe that God has put me on the right path. I can only say that the Holy Spirit is the one to guide us when there is any misunderstanding so just put your trust in God and pray and let Him do the rest. 🙂

God bless!
You are correct. It’s a gender and tense thing in Latin, like in Spanish or French. Peter could not be called Petra in Latin because he is a man.
 
G-man,

The Catechism is a guide to our faith, not our history.

Are you saying that the Eastern Bishops were not guilty of heresy? 🤷

This is not my area of expertise, but Dave Armstrong, Mark Bonocore and others have done a pretty thorough job of documenting the fact that the Eastern Church was in heresy for hundreds of years over one issue or another, and each time, Rome (which has never fallen) sorted the matter out.

We do agree on this, don’t we?
Surely you’re saying that the entire Western Church has not had plenty of its own issues with heresy? There’s actually quite a long list.

Furthermore, this stuff about each time the East had a problem with heresy it took Rome to straighten them out simply doesn’t reflect the reality of the early Church.

Eastern Champions of Orthodoxy:
against Arianism–St. Athanasius and the Cappadocians
against Apollinarianism–St. Gregory of Nazianzus
against Macedonianism–the Cappadocians
against Nestorianism–St. Cyril of Alexandria
against Monothelitism–St. Maximus the Confessor
 
I thought I’d be able to work these issues out. I was wrong.

Read the Catechism, go to Mass regularly, get involved in the Church, Pray constantly, I lost a lot of people I thought were friends when I reverted. You don’t know how much I am searching. These are not arguments from an angry person lashing back at the Church. At this point they are well thought out and out of emotion. These things are irreconcilable if I am to be honest with myself and the Church. I’d rather be honest than a hypocrite.
You should look up some info regarding why Tim Staples chose the Catholic Church over the Eastern Orthodox Church. He originally considered the EO because he didn’t believe the infallibility of the Pope. But his research into the Church Fathers and other Church documents led him to the Catholic Church. And his whole spiritual journey was started as a way to learn more about the Catholic Church to prove it was wrong and lead souls away from the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a solid location for you to visit, but if you contact him via his website (timstaples.com) or catholic.com, I’m sure he can provide you documentation.

God Bless
 
I just came across this thread and tried to skim through it, so sorry if something similar is already posted.

This is just something I noticed while studying Judaism. I put two and two together, and it seems to backs church teaching:

In the Old Testament only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies - into the presence of God himself. The Day of Atonement was the only day of the year on which this happened.

The High Priest actually went into the Holy of Holies 4 times on that day. The first time was to offer incense before the Lord. The second time he brought blood to atone for his own sin. The third time he brought blood to purify the sanctuary. After all of this, he left his garments in the Holy of Holies to signify that the atonement was complete.

After the Day of Atonement ceremonies were complete, the High Priest went back into the Holy of Holies the fourth time, for two purposes: To clean up the ashes from the incense ceremony and to retrieve the garments he had left inside the Holy of Holies. (remember: only the High Priest could EVER enter–even for mundane tasks such as these.)

Now this is where it gets interesting:

On the Day of Resurrection, we see Peter and John running to the tomb because they had been told by the women that Jesus was not there.

The scripture in the Gospel of John explicitly says that both Peter and 'the disciple that Jesus loved (usually thought to be John Himself) ran to the tomb and John got there first, but did not go in. It says that when Peter came, he went into the tomb and found the garments that had been left.

Why didn’t John go into the tomb first, since he got there first? And why does the scripture say that Peter went in first and found the garments? (the scripture seems to mention explicit details if they’re important). Remember, that only the High Priest could go back in and retrieve the garments. Was God confirming that Peter was the chosen successor?
That’s my opinion anyhow.

Excellent point 👍
 
Surely you’re saying that the entire Western Church has not had plenty of its own issues with heresy? There’s actually quite a long list.
Are you saying that Rome has taught heresy?

Could you be more specific?
Furthermore, this stuff about each time the East had a problem with heresy it took Rome to straighten them out simply doesn’t reflect the reality of the early Church.
Eastern Champions of Orthodoxy:
against Arianism–St. Athanasius and the Cappadocians
against Apollinarianism–St. Gregory of Nazianzus
against Macedonianism–the Cappadocians
against Nestorianism–St. Cyril of Alexandria
against Monothelitism–St. Maximus the Confessor
Second, we had a big group discussion about this last year, didn’t we? :yup:

You may recall that I cited Mark Bonocore, Dave Armstrong and others who have documented the fact that the East was in heresy for hundreds of years. That was true, wasn’t it?

And Rome? Not so much.

However, I don’t want to suggest that ONLY Rome pulled them out of the mess they were in.
 
I do not believe that Jesus left us adrift as pilgrims in the world not knowing the “Truth with Certainty”. He said of Himself that He is the “Truth” and that He would reveal Himself to His disciples, and send His Spirit to lead them into “all Truth”. I think taking the position that we cannot know the truth for certainty in this life is just a passive way of rejecting what He has revealed.

Jesus established a Church with authority, and commissioned them to exercise that authroity on earth. When He directed the disciples to take their disputes “to the Churh” He meant that it would always be clear how the One Church He founded could be identified.
"
I didn’t expect you to understand. Because you have faith in all the words written down by humans, take much if not all of their words literally, and perhaps most importantly of all you have faith in how the Catholic Church interprets the words and everything throughout history. So with all of that faith, you believe you know with certainty.
 
Well, verse 23 follows pretty quickly, does it not? That’s where Jesus called him Satan. Right after Peter does something that sounds authoritative. Sounds to me like Peter was being presumptuous and got strongly rebuked for thinking he was in charge.
The apostles at this point in the scriptures, don’t know that Satan has been allowed to sift THEM and particularly Peter, like wheat. And Peter is being sifted immediately by Satan here. Jesus is the only one who can see Satan. And the apostles won’t know this agreement with Satan until Jesus tells them, after the Last Supper is concluded. Which is a year or two away from this event you bring up. (see ref to Lk 22 ) #14

Peter is supported and bolsterted by what has been promised and done for him as the scripture narrative continues and attests to as well as Tradition, and ongoing teaching of the Chair of Peter and those in union with him. Read all the links inside that link.
 
The times of correction of heresies were done when the Church was united…and geographically close to its origins to the Holy Land.

The other point…God is the Unmoved Mover…what we look at is the consistency of faith and morals taught for 2000 years evident in our catechism, our faith binding through Peter.
 
You claimed at the end of your earlier post the “Rome sorted the matter out”. Do you admit that it was a false claim?
No.

A Chart of Heretical Eastern Patriarchs

Patriarchal See / Patriarch / Years / Heresy
Antioch Paul of Samosata 260-269 Modalist
Antioch Eulalius c.322 Arian
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329 Arian
Constantinople Eusebius c.341-42 Arian
Constantinople Macedonius c.342-60 Semi-Arian
Antioch Leontius 344-58 Arian
Alexandria George 357-61 Arian
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60 Arian
Constantinople Eudoxius 360 Arian
Antioch Euzoius 361-78 Arian
Constantinople Nestorius 428-31 Nestorian!
Alexandria Dioscorus 448-51 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy Aelurus 457-60, 475-77 Monophysite
Antioch Peter the Fuller 470,475-7, 482-88 Monophysite
Constantinople Acacius 471-89 Monophysite
Antioch John Codonatus 477,488 Monophysite
Alexandria Peter Mongo 477-90 Monophysite
Antioch Palladius 488-98 Monophysite
Constantinople Phravitas 489-90 Monophysite
Constantinople Euphemius 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria Athanasius II 490-96 Monophysite
Alexandria John II 496-505 Monophysite
Alexandria John III 505-518 Monophysite
Constantinople Timothy I 511-17 Monophysite
Antioch Severus 512-18 Monophysite
Alexandria Timothy III 518-35 Monophysite
Constantinople Anthimus 535-36 Monophysite
Alexandria Theodosius 535-38 Monophysite
Antioch Sergius c.542-c.557 Monophysite
Antioch Paul “the Black” c.557-578 Monophysite
Alexandria Damianus 570-c.605 Monophysite
Antioch Peter Callinicum 578-91 Monophysite
Constantinople Sergius 610-38 Monothelite
Antioch Anthanasius c.621-629 Monothelite
Alexandria Cyrus c.630-642 Monothelite
Constantinople Pyrrhus 638-41 Monothelite
Antioch Macedonius 640-c.655 Monothelite
Constantinople Paul II 641-52 Monothelite
Constantinople Peter 652-64 Monothelite
Antioch Macarius c.655-681 Monothelite
Constantinople John VI 711-15 Monothelite

These historical facts may be briefly summarized as follows: All three of the great Eastern sees were under the jurisdiction of heretical patriarchs simultaneously during five different periods: 357-60 (Arian), 475-77, 482-96, and 512-17 (all Monophysite), and 640-42 (Monothelite): a total of 26 years, or 9% of the time from 357 to 642.

At least two out of three of the sees suffered under the yoke of a heterodox “shepherd” simultaneously for 112 years, or 33% of the period from 341 to 681 (or, two-thirds heretical for one-third of the time), and at least 248 of these same years saw one or more of the sees burdened with sub-orthodox ecclesiastical leaders: an astonishing 73% rate.

Thus the East, as represented by its three greatest bishops, was at least one-third heretical for nearly three-quarters of the time over a 340-year span. If we examine each city separately, we find, for example, that between 475 and 675, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch were outside the Catholic orthodox faith for 41%, 55%, and 58% of the time respectively.

Furthermore, these deplorable conditions often manifested themselves for long, unbroken terms: Antioch and Alexandria were Monophysite for 49 and 63 straight years (542-91 and 475-538 respectively), while Constantinople, the seat of the Byzantine Empire and the “New Rome,” was embroiled in the Monothelite heresy for 54 consecutive years (610-64). There were at least (the list is not exhaustive) 41 heretical Patriarchs of these sees between 260 and 711.

Roman Steadfastness

No such scandal occurred in Rome, where, as we have seen, heresy was vigilantly attacked by the popes and local Synods, and never took hold of the papacy (not even in the ubiquitous “hard cases” of Honorius, Vigilius, and Liberius - none having defined heretical doctrines infallibly for the entire Church to believe). Rome never succumbed to heresy. It experienced barbarian invasions, periodic moral decadence, a few weak or decadent popes, the Protestant Revolt, the “Enlightenment,” Modernism, etc., but always survived and rejuvenated itself. The papacy continues unabated to this day, with venerable power and prestige - the oldest continuing institution in the world. Thus, Rome has far and away the most plausible claim for apostolic faithfulness, and its history is a striking confirmation of the Catholic claims. An Orthodox position of papal primacy (not supremacy) can be synthesized fairly plausibly with these facts, but the anti-ecumenical stance assuredly cannot.

Source: socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/…tiques-of.html

+++

Ah…I see that Dave has removed some content from his site in order to revise a book that he had written several years ago.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/books-by-dave-armstrong-orthodoxy-and.html
 
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