Christ is everything

[underdog]

God can do as he pleases, however, the Catholic Church is the main means of Grace of all Christian churches.

Good morning Ralph,

I am really puzzled by your statement since the events of 1095 and 1517 were about seperation and not unity. Do you wish to comment so I can understand. How can the Roman Catholic Church be God’s main means of grace when the two other main branches of Christendom seperated from the Roman Catholic Church? Do you see why non-Catholic Christians can think that Catholics elevate the Roman Catholic Church over and above Jesus Christ? Did Jesus Christ die only for Roman Catholic Christians exclusively? Jesus Christ died for the universal church consisting of various churches and denominations. The true Catholic Church is not contained only within Roman Catholicism, don’t you agree?

 

[mercygate]

Nope. You need to understand what a discipline is. It is the current ‘‘discipline’’ of the catholic church that those called to a vocation do not marry. In imitation of Christ Himself. However, the Catholic Church does actually have married priests :yup: Converts to the faith who were married pastors in their original denomination.

Didn’t Christ Himself fast??? Bit of an epic fast too wouldn’t you agree???

The Catholic Church forbids no meat or food whatsoever.

It does, however, suggest as a discipline, that the faithful fast and do penance at certain times of the year. It is a diiscipline, and good for the soul.

Ah. A million miles up-thread the question of “meat” versus “food” arose. I checked the Greek. It’s “solid food” in I Tim 4:3.

 

[ralphinal]

Good morning Ralph,

I am really puzzled by your statement since the events of 1095 and 1517 were about seperation and not unity. Do you wish to comment so I can understand.

Now how do I know what you will and will not understand until I say it?

How can the Roman Catholic Church be God’s main means of grace when the two other main branches of Christendom seperated from the Roman Catholic Church?

You answered your won question: they left us. The one that is first must be the one that was first. And why did they leave? That is the more important question. Why.

Do you see why non-Catholic Christians can think that Catholics elevate the Roman Catholic Church over and above Jesus Christ?

No. IT is an illogical asserition made by people who know neither Jesus’s Bible nor his Church.

Did Jesus Christ die only for Roman Catholic Christians exclusively?

Yes, because he founded ONE CHURCH. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Jesus Christ died for the universal church consisting of various churches and denominations.

No, the Mercy of GOd allows those who choose to be separated from the Church founded by Christ to be part of the redemption process. I am really having trouble understanding why you think that Jesus started multiple denominations. Is there any way you can prove it? Or is it a concept that helps you sleep better, knowing that historically, your form of Christianity was started within the last couple hundred years? 18th century is not the same as first century.

The true Catholic Church is not contained only within Roman Catholicism, don’t you agree?

Yes, but not in the way that you mean it. First, there are rites other than Roman Catholic within the Catholic Church. Further, as the EO have valid apostolic successsion, they are a part of the Church CAtholic, though not the Catholic Church. Lastly, as Paul tells us there is one baptism, those rebellious children who refuse or simply cannot accept the Truth of God are part as well. And I think that this bothers some of them to hear.

 

[underdog]

Underdog, historically there is a huge difference between a Church and a denomination. There are many Churches in the One Church: all of them with Apostolic Succession, all of them with valid Holy Orders and celebrating the seven Sacraments. Although the great schism has separated East from West admnistratively, these “true particular Churches” are identical with the Roman Church in their understanding of what “The Church” is.

A denomination is a community that has deliberately splintered off from the Apostolic vine and taken its own theological path. It is not possible to discuss the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of a Christian without coming to terms with Jesus’ idea of how that centrality is to be lived. “Ut unum sint” – that they all might be one – was Our Lord’s prayer. A central relationship with Jesus Christ in one’s life is very much tied up with the Church He promised to build upon the rock of Peter, and which He promised to send a paraclete “to guide you into all the truth.” We take this on HIS terms, in HIS Church.

It is my understanding that the church in the East claims to be the One True Church and rejects Roman Catholic authority. In addition, I believe the West also claims to be the One True Church through apostolic succession. How can the East and West both claim to be the One True Church and both be right at the same time?

I also read about the 1378 event with the great Papal schism where two popes and later three popes vied for supremacy. Do you see why I believe Christ is supreme and not apparent vicars found throughout church history. Considering the actual lives documented in history books of many of the popes, I would conclude that the true vicar on earth is the Holy Spirit. Part of the mission of the Spirit of God is to purify God’s churches and people, enpower us to do the will of God, testify about Jesus, and to remind us of all things Christ taught His disciples. What part of my post do you agree or disagree with?

 

[underdog]

Did Jesus Christ die only for Roman Catholic Christians exclusively? - Underdog

Yes, because he founded ONE CHURCH. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Your answer to my question is the heart of this thread. Consider the OP with what you posted. Jesus Christ the 2nd person of the godhead is the Savior and not His body the church. Here are central truths to consider.

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.- 1 Tim 1:15

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

The Preeminence of Christ

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul’s Ministry to the Church
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

How does the Apostle Paul minster to the body of Chrit? By proclaiming Jesus Christ to the members of the church, and to the rest of the world. Our view of Jesus Christ needs to higher than our view of the church because the church is made up of sinners in process.

 

[ralphinal]

Your answer to my question is the heart of this thread. Consider the OP with what you posted. Jesus Christ the 2nd person of the godhead is the Savior and not His body the church. Here are central truths to consider.

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.- 1 Tim 1:15

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

The Preeminence of Christ

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul’s Ministry to the Church
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

How does the Apostle Paul minster to the body of Chrit? By proclaiming Jesus Christ to the members of the church, and to the rest of the world. Our view of Jesus Christ needs to higher than our view of the church because the church is made up of sinners in process.

Obviously, you either cannot or will not understand one simple point.

HOW MANY CHURCHES DID JESUS FOUND?

 

[mercygate]

The Spirit of Christ is within those who are united to Christ. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for the saints. Before Jesus ascended to the Father, He promised us the Spirit of Christ and not the church as our guide to all truth, reminding us of the supremacy of Jesus Christ. Don’t confuse the Holy Spirit with the church.

Actually, the persons in the room at the last supper, when Jesus promised to send the Spirit “to guide you into all the truth,” were the Eleven. Same as the group to whom he gave the Great Commission to baptize and to teach in Mt. 28. The Eleven. Thus, where the Apostles are is a key to having confidence in what is being taught. Those whom the Apostles taught, and to whom they passed the authentic apostolic teaching, starting with Matthias in Acts, are the guideposts to where we can be sure that Christ’s Church stands with His authority. For Catholics, that means “not without Peter” but the Orthodox also participate in the fullness of apostolic authority and sacramental power.

Christ and His Bride are one. It is not either Christ *or *His Church. The Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh. Just as Jesus had a body of flesh and bone, when he walked among us as a man on earth, so today His Church is identifiable in the world as that Church descended from the Apostles and in communion with them.

 

[underdog]

Actually, the persons in the room at the last supper, when Jesus promised to send the Spirit “to guide you into all the truth,” were the Eleven. Same as the group to whom he gave the Great Commission to baptize and to teach in Mt. 28. The Eleven. Thus, where the Apostles are is a key to having confidence in what is being taught. Those whom the Apostles taught, and to whom they passed the authentic apostolic teaching, starting with Matthias in Acts, are the guideposts to where we can be sure that Christ’s Church stands with His authority. For Catholics, that means “not without Peter” but the Orthodox also participate in the fullness of apostolic authority and sacramental power.

Christ and His Bride are one. It is not either Christ *or *His Church. The Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh. Just as Jesus had a body of flesh and bone, when he walked among us as a man on earth, so today His Church is identifiable in the world as that Church descended from the Apostles and in communion with them.

The Bridegroom is superior and supreme over His bride. The Spirit is purifying His bride through the washing of the Word. We need to always remember Christ is the head, and we are His body. The Church is not the head and the body. We proclaim Him and not the church to each other and the world. It sure seems Catholics continue to proclaim the church as compared to Jesus Christ. Thus, we have this thread.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The Bridegroom is superior and supreme over His bride. The Spirit is purifying His bride through the washing of the Word. We need to always remember Christ is the head, and we are His body. The Church is not the head and the body. We proclaim Him and not the church to each other and the world. It sure seems Catholics continue to proclaim the church as compared to Jesus Christ. Thus, we have this thread.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Do you ever read of Christ referring to more than one Church?

Why do you think he would need more than one?

 

[mercygate]

It is my understanding that the church in the East claims to be the One True Church and rejects Roman Catholic authority. In addition, I believe the West also claims to be the One True Church through apostolic succession. How can the East and West both claim to be the One True Church and both be right at the same time?

They do have Apostolic Succession, and they are absolutely part of the true Apostolic Church. The Schism is a painful scar, and owes more to the political climate of the age than to any doctrinal rift; in fact the doctrinal issues were superimposed upon the politics. But at bottom, the Orthodox and Western Catholics have a common understanding what it means to be a true Church.

I also read about the 1378 event with the great Papal schism where two popes and later three popes vied for supremacy.

The “Babylonian captivity” of the 14th Century had nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine. Nothing. The administration was in a standoff but nothing regarding faith and Sacraments was compromised.

Do you see why I believe Christ is supreme and not apparent vicars found throughout church history. Considering the actual lives documented in history books of many of the popes, I would conclude that the true vicar on earth is the Holy Spirit. Part of the mission of the Spirit of God is to purify God’s churches and people, enpower us to do the will of God, testify about Jesus, and to remind us of all things Christ taught His disciples. What part of my post do you agree or disagree with?

I agree that the Holy Spirit has definitely cleaned house when things got messy. When I was a teenager and commented that this history of the “bad popes” was an indictment of the Church, a friend responded that he thought they were a sign that the Holy Spirit had the Church in the palm of His hand, since only under divine providence could the Church have survived all of that. I found that to be a compelling point, and still do.

 

[AshleyBelle]

The Bridegroom is superior and supreme over His bride. The Spirit is purifying His bride through the washing of the Word. We need to always remember Christ is the head, and we are His body. The Church is not the head and the body. We proclaim Him and not the church to each other and the world. It sure seems Catholics continue to proclaim the church as compared to Jesus Christ. Thus, we have this thread.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Good morning underdog

The passage you just presented is a beautiful illustration of Christ in relationship to His church!

Why do you read into mercygates post, that because Christ and His church are “one” that we somehow believe we are “above” Him? Are husband and wife not, “one flesh?”

The relationship is important to understand. “Wives be submissive to your husbands” does not propose a sort of cold authority, but rather, and obedient humble submission, done not of fear, but out of LOVE! Similarly, “husbands love your wives!” Not “dominate” your wives… but LOVE them… And the rest of the passage falls into place with this understanding It is exactly how the church, the body and bride of Christ relates to our Head, the Lord Jesus

 

[underdog]

Do you ever read of Christ referring to more than one Church?

Why do you think he would need more than one?

I don’t mean to be offensive, but the One True Church is not exclusively the Roman Catholic Church. The body of Christ includes all redeemed sinners throughout history. It is made up of those who are united to Christ and is truly universal in nature. There is only one body that God has created. He adds to the body and not to a particular branch of Christianity.

But to answer your question, if you read the book of Revelation, Jesus is addressing the seven churches.

Revelation 1:11

saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

 

[mercygate]

I don’t mean to be offensive, but the One True Church is not exclusively the Roman Catholic Church. The body of Christ includes all redeemed sinners throughout history. It is made up of those who are united to Christ and is truly universal in nature. There is only one body that God has created. He adds to the body and not a particular branch of Christianity.

Maybe not by the branch, but by the vine. As rpp stated up thread – take everything out of your belief about Jesus Christ that did not come from the Catholic Church, and what is left? Keep in mind that the canon of the New Testament is a product of Catholic Church councils.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t mean to be offensive, but the One True Church is not exclusively the Roman Catholic Church. The body of Christ includes all redeemed sinners throughout history. It is made up of those who are united to Christ and is truly universal in nature. There is only one body that God has created. He adds to the body and not a particular branch of Christianity.

But to answer your question, if you read the book of Revelation, Jesus is addressing the seven churches.

Revelation 1:11

saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

They are seven CONGREGATIONS, each in communion with all the others. They are a communion of churches in THE Church.

 

[underdog]

Maybe not by the branch, but by the vine. As rpp stated up thread – take everything out of your belief about Jesus Christ that did not come from the Catholic Church, and what is left? Keep in mind that the canon of the New Testament is a product of Catholic Church councils.

Athanasius in 367? The NT revelation was already breathed-out by the Spirit of God way before 367, don’t you agree? The Bible is divine revelation from above, correct? Then how can a church council of men give us the New Testament?

 

[underdog]

They are seven CONGREGATIONS, each in communion with all the others. They are a communion of churches in THE Church.

I was only answering Chestertonrules.

 

[underdog]

Jesus Christ is Lord!

 

[mercygate]

Athanasius in 367? The NT revelation was already breathed-out by the Spirit of God way before 367, dont you agree?

Absolutely: the NT was inspired the moment it was penned. But the canon was not universally agreed upon for nearly 300 years.

The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete codex of the Greek Bible (dating from around 325) includes the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas.

In 393, when the Council of Hippo produced the first universal canon, those two books didn’t make the cut. So, while we understand that the various books of the NT were inspired when they were written, it could not be known with the certainty of faith “certainty of faith” is a technical term] that they were “God-breathed” until the Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is the primary Author of Scripture, declared them to be canonical and thus, “God-breathed.”

 

[mercygate]

I was only answering Chestertonrules.

Then I misunderstood. I took your statement that there were “seven churches” in Revelation to imply that there were seven “different” churches.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But to answer your question, if you read the book of Revelation, Jesus is addressing the seven churches.

Revelation 1:11

saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Do you believe that these are different Churches, or different locations for the Church?

For example, when the Christians in Antioch had a dispute about the necessity of circumcision for gentile converts, they appealed to Jerusalem for guidance. Here’s how they worded it:

Acts 15

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.