Christian Denomination that believes/teaches faith AND works

[rinnie]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 faith and grace alone.
James 2:24 righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Would they not go hand n hand? (faith grace and works)
Should not faith and works sow each other naturally?

I ask this because I know the big argument with Protestant vs. Catholism is that one is by faith and grace alone and the other is by works… but I do not believe things are black and white and there is gray area…
I was curious if there is a denomination that does teach and believe both and who… and/or if there are denominations that does teach both but are falsely accused of just one or the other.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches there is no such thing as faith ALONE. The RCC teaches that faith without Grace from God to do good works is useless.

Another words anyone can have faith, as in knowing your neighbor is hungry and by the Grace of God will get food. But as God said when you do for the least of my brothers you do for me.

What that means is, you know your neighbor will get food, because of your faith taught to you by God to help others, and by his Grace to give you the food to eat, you share it with your neighbor. You don’t think my neighbors are hungry and need food, your thought is my neighbors are hungry, I will feed them. Its like second nature for you, not because you know God is watching, but because you were moved by God to do so.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Correct. The question then becomes how A (the blood of Jesus, the payment for our sins, and His righteous) gets to B (us). The Scriptures, and the testimony of the saints, martyrs through the indwelling of the Spirit in the Church have taught us that it comes to us by our sacramental life in the Church, our baptism, our union with His body and blood in the Eucharist, our repentance in confession, the liturgy, the hymns, and the obedience to His new covenant commands. This is justification… it is most certainly not by faith alone, though faith is necessary.

Probably with have repsectfully disagree as you probably already know but I will say a faith must be a living faith. By living I am sure you know what I mean from previous posts

 

[ignatius777]

Probably with have repsectfully disagree as you probably already know but I will say a faith must be a living faith. By living I am sure you know what I mean from previous posts

You believe works come automatically as a result of faith, is that right?

 

[aidanbradypop]

You believe works come automatically as a result of faith, is that right?

No because one must do the acts of love. If you need rent money and I give 800, you must decide to either pay your rent or not.

Acts of love or living as Christians take effort on our part. It is our response to God for sending His Son to die for us unworthy sinners.

I know many people that claim faith yet do not respond to the Gospel

 

[spiderweb]

Justification is by faith in Jesus. We have been restored to divine fellowship. We have been justified by the blood of Christ: the payment for our sins has been paid. We are made or declared righteous.

Santification is a process that is completed after we die.Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by the faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.

In the above bolded, there is a big difference between being “made” righteous and being “declared” righteous. The Catholic position is that we are “made” righteous. His grace transforms our life so that we change and this is a lifelong process to conform ourselves to Christ. This involves faith and works through Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit.

While being “declared” righteous means we don’t have to change at all. This implies faith alone. The works are good, but not necessary because you are already righteous.

 

[aidanbradypop]

In the above bolded, there is a big difference between being “made” righteous and being “declared” righteous. The Catholic position is that we are “made” righteous. His grace transforms our life so that we change and this is a lifelong process to conform ourselves to Christ. This involves faith and works through Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit.

While being “declared” righteous means we don’t have to change at all. This implies faith alone. The works are good, but not necessary because you are already righteous.

I see what you are saying. “Works” are the outward sign of the inward change.

 

[aidanbradypop]

When did Paul say salvation is by faith alone? He never uttered those words.

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And Paul was stating that works, by themselves, are of no avail. Neither is faith, by itself.

Steve I also wanted to point out to fellow Protestant that we MUST do the work of Christ. In the verse you quoted, many Protestants only quote the first part when trying to defend their belief in Faith Alone. They almost never quote the last verse. Thanks

 

[rinnie]

Probably with have repsectfully disagree as you probably already know but I will say a faith must be a living faith. By living I am sure you know what I mean from previous posts

You are correct that faith must be living faith. But here is something you have to remember, it is not your faith that helps you live the faith. This is where the RCC disagrees with people when they say it is their faith alone.

Remember it is not that your faith must be a living faith, (which indeed I agree) but see when you say it is your faith, your living faith that saved you, the reason we have a problem with this is WE SEE this as your saying you did it all, with your faith. Do you see what I am saying?

We say it was not your Faith, but the GRACE given to your by God that you can even have faith. (see where I an coming from? It is not YOUR faith, it was Faith given to your by the GRACE of God. Without his Grace faith, could not even be obtained. See what I am saying?

That is why in the RCC we never say FAITH ALONE, but GRACE ALONE. Hope this helps.

 

[ignatius777]

No because one must do the acts of love. If you need rent money and I give 800, you must decide to either pay your rent or not.

Acts of love or living as Christians take effort on our part. It is our response to God for sending His Son to die for us unworthy sinners.

I know many people that claim faith yet do not respond to the Gospel

Good to hear

 

[aidanbradypop]

You are correct that faith must be living faith. But here is something you have to remember, it is not your faith that helps you live the faith. This is where the RCC disagrees with people when they say it is their faith alone.

Remember it is not that your faith must be a living faith, (which indeed I agree) but see when you say it is your faith, your living faith that saved you, the reason we have a problem with this is WE SEE this as your saying you did it all, with your faith. Do you see what I am saying?

We say it was not your Faith, but the GRACE given to your by God that you can even have faith. (see where I an coming from? It is not YOUR faith, it was Faith given to your by the GRACE of God. Without his Grace faith, could not even be obtained. See what I am saying?

That is why in the RCC we never say FAITH ALONE, but GRACE ALONE. Hope this helps.

When I say “my faith” it means my personal faith in Jesus. It means that I have made the decision to surrender my life over to God as Romans 12:1 states. It is a given that it is only by the Grace of God that I have such a faith to begin with.

 

[Per_Crucem]

When I say “my faith” it means my personal faith in Jesus. It means that I have made the decision to surrender my life over to God as Romans 12:1 states. It is a given that it is only by the Grace of God that I have such a faith to begin with.

But you’re a Red Sox fan… so you’re doomed

 

[aidanbradypop]

But you’re a Red Sox fan… so you’re doomed

Now that is one thing that is assured for eternity lol

 

[ChosenOne7]

James 2:14-17 says - 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:20-26 says - 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead… So I would say faith and works should work together. We can illustrate that like this - A young man may court a young lady, telling her that he loves her. But if he never asks her to marry him, is he really demonstrating that his love is thorough? Likewise, works are a means of demonstrating the genuineness of our faith and our love. If we do not obey God we do not really love him or have faith in the rightness of his ways. (1 John 5:3, 4) But we cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do. Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ, not payment for our works.—Eph. 2:8, 9.

So our having faith in God would help to accomplish his purpose through our works… I think the question we should then ask ourselves is what works did God command us to do or since Jesus is our leader and he left for us a model to follow his footsteps closely what work did he do and his apostles who followed him an the 1st century Christians there after

 

[thenobes]

James 2:14-17 says - 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:20-26 says - 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead… So I would say faith and works should work together. We can illustrate that like this - A young man may court a young lady, telling her that he loves her. But if he never asks her to marry him, is he really demonstrating that his love is thorough? Likewise, works are a means of demonstrating the genuineness of our faith and our love. If we do not obey God we do not really love him or have faith in the rightness of his ways. (1 John 5:3, 4) But we cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do. Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ, not payment for our works.—Eph. 2:8, 9.

So our having faith in God would help to accomplish his purpose through our works… I think the question we should then ask ourselves is what works did God command us to do or since Jesus is our leader and he left for us a model to follow his footsteps closely what work did he do and his apostles who followed him an the 1st century Christians there after

Works complete one’s faith and for that reason have a undeniable salvific effect. Absent the works one’s fath becomes dead. Works keep your faith alive.

peace
steve

 

[JonNC]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 faith and grace alone.
James 2:24 righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Would they not go hand n hand? (faith grace and works)
Should not faith and works sow each other naturally?

I ask this because I know the big argument with Protestant vs. Catholism is that one is by faith and grace alone and the other is by works… but I do not believe things are black and white and there is gray area…
I was curious if there is a denomination that does teach and believe both and who… and/or if there are denominations that does teach both but are falsely accused of just one or the other.

When one says works are “needed”, I think it depends on what is meant.
As a life long Lutheran, I have never been taught that works are not needed. What I have been taught is that works do not justify. We are justified by grace alone, though faith alone in Christ alone.
We are then freed to perform the good works He places before us to do. We are to love the Lord our God, AND our neighbors as ourselves.

I believe the [Epitome of the Formula of Concord ](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)says the belief well:

1. That good works certainly and without doubt follow true faith, if it is not a dead, but a living faith, as fruits of a good tree.

7] 2. We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4:6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.

8] 3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6.** Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.**

12] 7. Yet this is not to be understood otherwise than as the Lord Christ and His apostles themselves declare, namely, regarding the liberated spirit, that it does not do this from fear of punishment, like a servant, but from love of righteousness, like children, Rom. 8:15.

13] 8. Although this voluntariness [liberty of spirit] in the elect children of God is not perfect, but burdened with great weakness, as St. Paul complains concerning himself, Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:17;

Doing good works is not optional.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;12812542]The Roman Catholic Church teaches there is no such thing as faith ALONE. The RCC teaches that faith without Grace from God to do good works is useless.

Hi rinnie,
Lutherans would say that there is no faith without grace. Without grace, there is no faith in God. And I think the Catholic Church agrees on this point. From the Council of Orange:

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism --** if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles**, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

Another words anyone can have faith, as in knowing your neighbor is hungry and by the Grace of God will get food. But as God said when you do for the least of my brothers you do for me.

Anyone can have faith, but its source is grace alone.

When Lutherans speak of faith alone, the alone ONLY means that the way we access God’s grace is through His gift of faith. There are no other means by which this happens.

What that means is, you know your neighbor will get food, because of your faith taught to you by God to help others, and by his Grace to give you the food to eat, you share it with your neighbor. You don’t think my neighbors are hungry and need food, your thought is my neighbors are hungry, I will feed them. Its like second nature for you, not because you know God is watching, but because you were moved by God to do so.

This is very Lutheran.

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

Jon

 

[spedteacherita]

Well, the Roman Catholic Church does.

Most Lutheran churches who actually follow Lutheran teaching does too.

What I understand about our Lutheran teaching is that we belief in Justification by faith but the Holy Spirit works in us good works. I am so ingrained in loving Jesus for what He has done for us that good works automatically exude from me and I will be one of the saints in heaven that is described in Matthew 26

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Please correct me if I understand this wrong…

Rita

 

[pablope]

What I understand about our Lutheran teaching is that we belief in Justification by faith but the Holy Spirit works in us good works. I am so ingrained in loving Jesus for what He has done for us that good works automatically exude from me and I will be one of the saints in heaven that is described in Matthew 26

Please correct me if I understand this wrong…

Rita

I think the difference is in the word “automatic”.

I will provide this article for futher explanation…chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

Grace
What Catholics call “sanctifying grace” or “habitual grace” turns out to be a deeply mysterious entity: a quality of man which is a property of God. In order to cope with such an entity, one needs a sophisticated metaphysics of participation. The Church Fathers and their successors, the Scholastic Doctors, took the trouble to work out such a metaphysics because the existence of grace as a real entity in man—ontic grace—was and is the foundation, without which the whole Catholic understanding of justification makes no sense. The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

 

[spedteacherita]

I think the difference is in the word “automatic”.

I will provide this article for futher explanation…chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

Grace
What Catholics call “sanctifying grace” or “habitual grace” turns out to be a deeply mysterious entity: a quality of man which is a property of God. In order to cope with such an entity, one needs a sophisticated metaphysics of participation. The Church Fathers and their successors, the Scholastic Doctors, took the trouble to work out such a metaphysics because the existence of grace as a real entity in man—ontic grace—was and is the foundation, without which the whole Catholic understanding of justification makes no sense. The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

Thank you for sharing the link and the info…I will have to read it a little later…having trouble reading and making myself clear. An example of that is when I read your bolded quote of mine I read EXCLUDE :bigyikes: rather than exudes from me several times enough for me to start a post apologizing for it…then I finally read it again and found it stated what I actually did mean…It’s hard to be sane with this going on all the time… Thanks again for your post and link!

 

[thenobes]

When one says works are “needed”, I think it depends on what is meant.
As a life long Lutheran, I have never been taught that works are not needed. What I have been taught is that works do not justify. We are justified by grace alone, though faith alone in Christ alone.
We are then freed to perform the good works He places before us to do. We are to love the Lord our God, AND our neighbors as ourselves.

I believe the [Epitome of the Formula of Concord ](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)says the belief well:

**7] 2. We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4:6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.

I agree, but it appears to me that 7.2 is contradicted by 11.6. If works maintain one’s faith, then there is obviously a salvific influence from works, even if they flow from God’s grace itself.

I would square this difference inviews of works, by saying that 11.6 refers to the willing to work, and 7.2 to the doing of the works. Our actions cannot affect our salvation, but the assent of our will to do the works of the Spirit can.

Also in the verse “by grace are you saved…” the pronoun “that”, in “and that not…”, is neuter, implying that its antecent is the entire previous phrase, to wit, the state of having been saved is not from ourselves. Not faith, or rather, its maintenance.

peace
steve