Christian Denomination that believes/teaches faith AND works

[rcwitness]

Anyone can have faith, but its source is grace alone.

Hey Jon, you know I appreciate your faith and your sound knowledge of salvation. We (Catholics should not dissagree with you here. the Source of Salvation and how salvation was initiated AND is assisted through its completion in us is God and the work of God. This is His grace and merit to associate His life with us, find us out and bring us back to Him.

The doctrine of Faith and Works is not claiming anything different than this. It is merely acknowledging and Teaching that both faith and works are necessary for the man who turns, accepts and keeps the Word of God unto salvation.

When Lutherans speak of faith alone, the alone ONLY means that the way we access God’s grace is through His gift of faith. There are no other means by which this happens.

Understood and respected for what it is worth!

When Catholic Teaching rejects the doctrine of Faith Alone, I believe it is saying that mere “accesing” or accepting means nothing if that faith does not compell one to do the will of God.

But where we both can come together, I think, is believing that initial forgiveness and justification doesnt depend on anything man does or has contributed which was not freely given to him from God to begin with. A genuine Catholic understanding should Recognize that this faith which led to conversion of heart must be the same faith which seeks God’s will and gives grace to accomplish God’s will. Also, something Catholic Teaching has shown me, is that most all of us fail in many things throughout this journey, but the righteous, who do do God’s will, turn to stand up through confessing and remorse when abusing the grace we have been given. You see, once we are grafted into the life of Christ, we are held accountable to action, participation, and suffering all in accordance to our first love and repentence to God for the grace He gave us through Jesus Christ.

You bring up the Council of Orange and it definitely addresses the issue. Im curious to what level the Catholic Church accepts this Council, and if she rejects it, why.

 

[JonNC]

=rcwitness;12822290]Hey Jon, you know I appreciate your faith and your sound knowledge of salvation. We (Catholics should not dissagree with you here. the Source of Salvation and how salvation was initiated AND is assisted through its completion in us is God and the work of God. This is His grace and merit to associate His life with us, find us out and bring us back to Him.

The doctrine of Faith and Works is not claiming anything different than this. It is merely acknowledging and Teaching that both faith and works are necessary for the man who turns, accepts and keeps the Word of God unto salvation.

And I yours, Michael.
Nothing you have said here should a Lutheran disagree with. Faith, as a gift of grace, is necessary unto salvation. Works are our response to grace, joyfully responding to His call to help the least of His children, to complete what He has prepared for us to do.

Understood and respected for what it is worth!

When Catholic Teaching rejects the doctrine of Faith Alone, I believe it is saying that mere “accesing” or accepting means nothing if that faith does not compell one to do the will of God.

No argument. Lutherans would not categorize saving faith as mere assent.

But where we both can come together, I think, is believing that initial forgiveness and justification doesnt depend on anything man does or has contributed which was not freely given to him from God to begin with. A genuine Catholic understanding should Recognize that this faith which led to conversion of heart must be the same faith which seeks God’s will and gives grace to accomplish God’s will. Also, something Catholic Teaching has shown me, is that most all of us fail in many things throughout this journey, but the righteous, who do do God’s will, turn to stand up through confessing and remorse when abusing the grace we have been given. You see, once we are grafted into the life of Christ, we are held accountable to action, participation, and suffering all in accordance to our first love and repentence to God for the grace He gave us through Jesus Christ.

Amen, Michael.

You bring up the Council of Orange and it definitely addresses the issue. Im curious to what level the Catholic Church accepts this Council, and if she rejects it, why.

I’ll wait with you to hear some responses on this.

Thanks, Michael.

Jon

 

[KjetilK]

What I understand about our Lutheran teaching is that we belief in Justification by faith but the Holy Spirit works in us good works. I am so ingrained in loving Jesus for what He has done for us that good works automatically exude from me and I will be one of the saints in heaven that is described in Matthew 26

Well, I don’t think you can say that good works automatically exude from anyone. My experience is that such an idea is nonsense, to be frank. It doesn’t automatically exude from me. I have to actually work for these good works to come forth. But when they do, they flow forth by grace. The point is that we can reject the grace given to us, even to the point of damnation. Any Lutheran worth his salt will reject OSAS.

 

[Koineman]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

All Christian groups believe that both are necessary. Where they differ is on the question of what works are necessary FOR.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;12812196:

Every Christian Faith Tradition with the exception of the Protestants have always believed this. Christ clearly taught it. Not until the Protestants 1600 years after Christ did anyone teach anything different.

Ok so everything but Protestants teach both and they go hand n hand?

I have been to many protestant churches while growing up and only two I have attended say that they go hand in hand…
hmmm

The bible even says we are not saved by Faith Alone.
James 2:17: 17 Even so faith alone, if it hath not works, is dead.

You see then how man is not saved by faith alone.

 

[spedteacherita]

The bible even says we are not saved by Faith Alone.
James 2:17: 17 Even so faith alone, if it hath not works, is dead.

You see then how man is not saved by faith alone.

The concept of the Trinity is in the scriptures but we don’t find that word either.

This is from CARM and it has a compilation of verses that concept of faith alone:

carm.org/verses-showing-justification-by-faith

Thanks, and God bless!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Well, I don’t think you can say that good works automatically exude from anyone. My experience is that such an idea is nonsense, to be frank. It doesn’t automatically exude from me. I have to actually work for these good works to come forth. But when they do, they flow forth by grace. The point is that we can reject the grace given to us, even to the point of damnation. Any Lutheran worth his salt will reject OSAS.

I don’t mean OSAS at all. I mean that because of my faith in God and, if I walk with Him in all aspects of my life, good works automatically will be done. Yes, there are many in my life with which I must work at but there are those that will happen and I don’t know about.

Matthew 25

  34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Thanks for helping me clarify!!

Blessings

Rita

 

[eazyduzit]

The bible even says we are not saved by Faith Alone.
James 2:17: 17 Even so faith alone, if it hath not works, is dead.

You see then how man is not saved by faith alone.

Just curious. Which version says that “man is not saved by faith alone”? Every version i checked uses “justified” rather than “saved”, which is not the equivalent meaning. James has already said in ch. 1 that it is the word of God which saves v.21.

 

[a_priori]

Faith and works are like space and time. They are two manifestations of the same thing. I don’t get the heartburn.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Faith and works are like space and time. They are two manifestations of the same thing. I don’t get the heartburn.

Can you explain this thought more please.

 

[Koineman]

For people not in the OSAS camp but still believe in faith alone, I can’t understand how this is even logically consistent. If we can be condemned through “bad” works, then the parallel would be that works indeed play an important part in our salvation.

We are indeed saved by grace alone, but you then can’t separate faith and works. So my question is how is Faith Alone even a possible position to hold logically?

If being able to hold a position logically is a problem for you, then you should have a problem with the Trinity. You probably don’t–and you shouldn’t–but to be consistent with your standard of logic, you should.

 

[Koineman]

Every Christian Faith Tradition with the exception of the Protestants have always believed this. Christ clearly taught it. Not until the Protestants 1600 years after Christ did anyone teach anything different.

Ummm…not exactly:

“And we, therefore, who by his will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight of religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning.” (Clement, First Letter, 32.3-4)

Chrysostom also confirmed faith alone in his commentary on Galatians, which I don’t have available right now but will post later if you want.

 

[rcwitness]

What I understand about our Lutheran teaching is that we belief in Justification by faith but the Holy Spirit works in us good works.

The Holy Spirit also gives us the supernatural gift of faith also, right? So it seems to me that we must make a distinction between faith and (good) works, yet acknowledge how one cannot, after his/her judgment by Christ, be saved without both.

The Catholic position does satisfy, because it recognizes that faith is a free gift of God’s, which is a higher law than works (being a law) because by works (as a law) we are all guilty and the wage is death (eternal separation from God). So by faith we know that outside of believing that Jesus satisfied God’s works of the Law (because God must hold to His Law) we are unable to please God. But by faith, we also know that we are able, and cannot avoid, doing good works that are pleasing to God. And it is the Father, who calls each of us, in His supernatural way by searching us out and fashioning faith as the communicative means to receive His will.

What those who oppose the Catholic doctrine of necessity of faith and works need to recognize is that just as one can never earn heaven through works (because that is rejecting the faith), one can neither earn faith. For faith is believing in the heart that Christ was necessary, is necessary and will always be necessary to attain, continue, and remain in His salvation.

If works earned salvation, they would be a law, and if works were a law they would condemn us all. But works as understood as flowing from faith, are the Law of (Christ’s) Love.

The foundational work of God is that we believe in Him whom God sent and allow Him to change and direct our hearts. The person who loves God, also loves his brother. The Apostle told us that no one can love God if he does not love his brothers. Love is not idle, but working. First in our hearts, and then towards our brothers and neighbor. That is what salvation is, not what earned us salvation. What earned us salvation is Jesus working in us. Who earned us salvation is Jesus. Who has been saved has co-operated with Jesus, because Jesus earned the supernatural gift of faith for all mankind.

 

[Koineman]

Here is the one from Chrysostom I was thinking of. I have it highlighted in Logos at home, but I got this from a website:

“And this he [Paul] removes, with great skill and prudence, turning their argument against themselves, and showing that those who relinquish the Law are not only not cursed, but blessed; and they who keep it, not only not blessed but cursed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed. And how does he prove all this? for it is no common thing which we have promised; wherefore it is necessary to give close attention to what follows. He had already shown this, by referring to the words spoken to the Patriarch, ‘In thee shall all nations be blessed,’ (Genesis 12:4 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] .) at a time, that is, when Faith existed, not the Law.”

(John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians, 3:8.).

 

[rcwitness]

Is faith lawless?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 faith and grace alone.
James 2:24 righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Would they not go hand n hand? (faith grace and works)
Should not faith and works sow each other naturally?

I ask this because I know the big argument with Protestant vs. Catholism is that one is by faith and grace alone and the other is by works… but I do not believe things are black and white and there is gray area…
I was curious if there is a denomination that does teach and believe both and who… and/or if there are denominations that does teach both but are falsely accused of just one or the other.

In actual practice, most Christian Churches combine faith and works. The big bunfight is how it’s articulated, not carried out.

For example, in Australia, a beat up in the “Bible Society - Live Light” boasted that four of the five top charities in Australia were Christian,

biblesociety.org.au/news/four-australias-top-five-charities-christian

Research by Pareto Fundraising, presented at the Fundraising Institute of Australia’s annual conference in Melbourne this week, revealed the top four of the Top Five charities based on fundraising income in 2012/2013 were Christian-based:

World Vision
Salvation Army Eastern
Salvation Army Southern
Compassion Australia
Australian Red Cross

Christian organisations in the list beat out several of Australia’s best-known charities including Cancer Council NSW, Oxfam, Amnesty International and St Vincent de Paul Society.

What irritated me was the implication that the St. Vincent de Paul Society wasn’t “Christian”. I’m a member myself, and it’s a Catholic organisation attempting to put Christ into action. Which shows how much the author knows.

So here they are saying it’s all a matter of “faith”, and on the other hand boasting about their works.

As far as I’m concerned, the Catholic - Protestant argument about faith versus works is one big over rated dog fight.

 

[rcwitness]

For example, in Australia, a beat up in the “Bible Society - Live Light” boasted that four of the five top charities in Australia were Christian,

What irritated me was the implication that the St. Vincent de Paul Society wasn’t “Christian”. I’m a member myself, and it’s a Catholic organisation attempting to put Christ into action. Which shows how much the author knows.

Im willing to bet that those organizations are larger than St Vincent de Paul Society. And I know that many Catholics contribute to those organizations like Salvation Army.

I agree that its deceptive to imply that St Vincent is less than Christian. But none of this really has much to do with the doctrines. I agree that its not about trying to show that Non Catholic Christians do good works. They do! And that shows that God is working through them. I am willing to bet that there are many athiests and non Christian people who contribute to the Salvation Army as well!

 

[KjetilK]

If being able to hold a position logically is a problem for you, then you should have a problem with the Trinity. You probably don’t–and you shouldn’t–but to be consistent with your standard of logic, you should.

Where is the logical problem with the Trinity?

 

[Koineman]

Where is the logical problem with the Trinity?

The fact that we say God is one God but three persons.

Now I am aware of the way that we explain that: God is three persons in one essence, and that removes the alleged contradiction. Nevertheless, the whole concept cannot be understood completely using human reasoning, so we have to accept what God has revealed.

If perfect understanding were a prerequisite to having faith, we’d be in trouble.

 

[spedteacherita]

The Holy Spirit also gives us the supernatural gift of faith also, right? So it seems to me that we must make a distinction between faith and (good) works, yet acknowledge how one cannot, after his/her judgment by Christ, be saved without both.

The Catholic position does satisfy, because it recognizes that faith is a free gift of God’s, which is a higher law than works (being a law) because by works (as a law) we are all guilty and the wage is death (eternal separation from God). So by faith we know that outside of believing that Jesus satisfied God’s works of the Law (because God must hold to His Law) we are unable to please God. But by faith, we also know that we are able, and cannot avoid, doing good works that are pleasing to God. And it is the Father, who calls each of us, in His supernatural way by searching us out and fashioning faith as the communicative means to receive His will.

What those who oppose the Catholic doctrine of necessity of faith and works need to recognize is that just as one can never earn heaven through works (because that is rejecting the faith), one can neither earn faith. For faith is believing in the heart that Christ was necessary, is necessary and will always be necessary to attain, continue, and remain in His salvation.

If works earned salvation, they would be a law, and if works were a law they would condemn us all. But works as understood as flowing from faith, are the Law of (Christ’s) Love.

The foundational work of God is that we believe in Him whom God sent and allow Him to change and direct our hearts. The person who loves God, also loves his brother. The Apostle told us that no one can love God if he does not love his brothers. Love is not idle, but working. First in our hearts, and then towards our brothers and neighbor. That is what salvation is, not what earned us salvation. What earned us salvation is Jesus working in us. Who earned us salvation is Jesus. Who has been saved has co-operated with Jesus, because Jesus earned the supernatural gift of faith for all mankind.

Agreed! I don’t see anything that is different from what I’ve been taught or read. Thanks for clarifying my clumsy attempt at defining faith and works!

God bless!

Rita