Christian unity: Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox unity possible; unity with Protestants impossible

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mannyfit75
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
thirdn6 said:
Did you mean that the Catholic Church was without God before the Reformation since she could not accept as members people of heretical beliefs and it is only now (post-Reformation) that God is with His Church since she now can unite with people of heretical beliefs?:eek:

You’re making those heretics (pre-Reformation) really mad now, I’m afraid. They’ll be up in arms now , my friend, protesting against you, too!

Please explain further…
Click to expand...
I meant nothing of the sort (what the…?).

I simply meant that God can do anything - and only through God are we, and can we, be all one. Nothing is impossible with God.

To say anything else would be putting words into my mouth.
 
That’s why be careful. We are talking about the impossibility of protestantism in unity with Catholic beliefs. Thanks.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
Prophecies according to who? The Catholic Church?

I very much know about a lot of about Public Revelation revealed to us by Jesus Christ. As far as doctrines goes, I firmly believe that Protestant Leaders will have to give up the Two Pillars of Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Those doctrines are condemned by the Catholic Church as stated in the Council of Trent.
Click to expand...
Sorry I missed this yesterday. I’m talking about Church approved private revelations, along with prophecies from Saints, Blesseds, and Venerables. If you, or anybody is interested, you can read one book, “Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph” by Desmond Birch, which gives you all of the best info. And remember…

“Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)

“Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-4)
 
I think there is VERY LITTLE likelihood that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism will reconcile. If you take the time to listen to Orthodox bishops and read Orthodox writings, they have little love for Rome usually and their outlook is, ‘if the Pope goes back to being the Patriarch of the West, renounces infallibility, the RCC drops the filioque clause, etc then we’ll talk.’ The Orthodox have a fundamentally different way of viewing ecclesiastical matters. They don’t believe in a universal ecclesiology like Roman Catholics do. They don’t believe the papacy deserves a primacy of jurisdiction over all other bishops. They accept that Peter was the Coryphaeus but some of them don’t believe that Rome necessarily even carried on Peter’s see. Some of them do believe the Pope is the descendent of St. Peter but that all the apostles were equal thus making primacy unnecessary. In Orthodoxy the entirety of the apostles is embodied in EACH bishop. The bishop of each diocese is equal and contains the office of all apostles, not the descendent of one and thus only the power or inheritance of one. They view it very differently.

Just because Rome and the East have a belief in the real presence and apostolic succession doesn’t mean much. They have totally different views of what constitutes the church, different ideas about purgatory, saints, the Orthodox are more mystical and focus less on canon laws and legalism, and they would require concessions from the Roman Catholic Church that the RCC would never be willing to give up. Rome isn’t going to admit, “you know, for 1000 years we’ve stretched the whole Matthew 16 thing to give the Bishop of Rome more credit and power than he’s due. The papacy is no longer infallible. We change our minds. Also, we’ll drop the filioque. That was a bad idea to begin with.” That’s not going to happen.

And the RCC would expect the East to accept papal primacy and universal jurisdiction as well as the filioque, etc. They’d never do that.

This is not a union negotiation for a contract. These guys don’t act like a committee for collective bargaining. This is theology and both sides are too entrenched in their positions.

Peter J passed on a link earlier on another thread that I read years ago and, thanks to his posting it, I put it in my favorites. It is an article from the Orthodox Information Center called “A Note for Evangelicals Considering Rome” and it looks at RCCism from an Eastern perspective. You might think reconciliation less likely after reading!

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonrome.aspx

I hate to contradict the OP but if you look at what’s going on in the new Anglican North American realignment, the new, more conservative Anglican province is being invited by Metropolitan Jonah, of the Orthodox Church of America, to enter dialogues with the Anglicans about entering a partnership, a possible communion between the churches. Notice that the Metropolitan chose the Anglicans despite even having female priests and some Calvinist elements over the Roman Catholics!! He even made comments about the Roman Catholic Church and denounced the papacy and filioque.

Go to Anglican TV anglicantv.org/ and look at the video of the address to the Anglicans by Metropolitan Jonah. It’s a fascinating speech he gives.

It just goes to show the opposite of the OP’s hypothesis. In this case, Orthodox would rather dialogue with conservative Anglicans than Catholics!🤷
 
Claire_from_DE said:
I wonder if there is really an interest in Christian unity on the part of many Protestant bodies. When you believe that ‘the holy catholic church’ is the invisible unity of all Christians you probably feel we are united enough.

Jesus prayed for unity. God can do all things. But I can’t foresee how this could possibly come about. But if we could eventually unite with Lutherans or some Orthodox churches, perhaps that would be a witness that would draw other Christians toward unity with us.
Click to expand...
You’d have a better chance with Lutherans and Anglicans than Orthodoxy I think.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I think there is VERY LITTLE likelihood that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism will reconcile. If you take the time to listen to Orthodox bishops and read Orthodox writings, they have little love for Rome usually and their outlook is, ‘if the Pope goes back to being the Patriarch of the West, renounces infallibility, the RCC drops the filioque clause, etc then we’ll talk.’ The Orthodox have a fundamentally different way of viewing ecclesiastical matters. They don’t believe in a universal ecclesiology like Roman Catholics do. They don’t believe the papacy deserves a primacy of jurisdiction over all other bishops. They accept that Peter was the Coryphaeus but some of them don’t believe that Rome necessarily even carried on Peter’s see. Some of them do believe the Pope is the descendent of St. Peter but that all the apostles were equal thus making primacy unnecessary. In Orthodoxy the entirety of the apostles is embodied in EACH bishop. The bishop of each diocese is equal and contains the office of all apostles, not the descendent of one and thus only the power or inheritance of one. They view it very differently.

Just because Rome and the East have a belief in the real presence and apostolic succession doesn’t mean much. They have totally different views of what constitutes the church, different ideas about purgatory, saints, the Orthodox are more mystical and focus less on canon laws and legalism, and they would require concessions from the Roman Catholic Church that the RCC would never be willing to give up. Rome isn’t going to admit, “you know, for 1000 years we’ve stretched the whole Matthew 16 thing to give the Bishop of Rome more credit and power than he’s due. The papacy is no longer infallible. We change our minds. Also, we’ll drop the filioque. That was a bad idea to begin with.” That’s not going to happen.

And the RCC would expect the East to accept papal primacy and universal jurisdiction as well as the filioque, etc. They’d never do that.

This is not a union negotiation for a contract. These guys don’t act like a committee for collective bargaining. This is theology and both sides are too entrenched in their positions.

Peter J passed on a link earlier on another thread that I read years ago and, thanks to his posting it, I put it in my favorites. It is an article from the Orthodox Information Center called “A Note for Evangelicals Considering Rome” and it looks at RCCism from an Eastern perspective. You might think reconciliation less likely after reading!

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonrome.aspx

I hate to contradict the OP but if you look at what’s going on in the new Anglican North American realignment, the new, more conservative Anglican province is being invited by Metropolitan Jonah, of the Orthodox Church of America, to enter dialogues with the Anglicans about entering a partnership, a possible communion between the churches. Notice that the Metropolitan chose the Anglicans despite even having female priests and some Calvinist elements over the Roman Catholics!! He even made comments about the Roman Catholic Church and denounced the papacy and filioque.

Go to Anglican TV anglicantv.org/ and look at the video of the address to the Anglicans by Metropolitan Jonah. It’s a fascinating speech he gives.

It just goes to show the opposite of the OP’s hypothesis. In this case, Orthodox would rather dialogue with conservative Anglicans than Catholics!🤷
Click to expand...
You make some good points.

As I stated earlier, I myself would like the see the RC reconcile with the western Protestant churches first. That’s a real bad hemorrhage there.

We Orthodox are patient.
 
I agree that unity between Orthodox and the Anglican Church of North America is more likely than with Roman Catholics.

I saw Metropolitan Jonah’s speech live and have a few observations.

First, he pulled no punches. He denounced Calvinism as a heresy. He denounced iconoclasm and anti sacramentalism. Many in the audience will have disagreed with him, but nonetheless find it refreshing and indeed, beautiful, to hear someone who speaks so clearly about questions of theological truth. If you are frustrated by wooly Anglican leaders, Orthodoxy is an attractive alternative.

Second, there is precedent for evangelical churches joining en masse the Orthodox Church. Over 2000 members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church joined in one day. Several parishes from the Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined in the past year.

Third, Anglo Catholics parishes that reject the ordination of women could join and, by adopting the Western Rite, would need to change very little. They could bring with them some of their Western traditions such as the rosary and would meet little resistance.
 
I think God’s going to force the issue about church unity. I suspect eventually a great many Protestants will come into the Catholic Church, but they will do so either as individuals, or denomination by denomination. Liturgically for example, it would be quite easy for Anglicans (Episcopaleans as the Americans call them) to adopt the Catholic liturgy, since there’s not much difference now.

The chief and final obstacle to Protesants returning to the Catholic Church is the Papacy.

For myself, I’m afraid I share the suspicion of my first, wisest, most prophetic PROTESTANT pastor who confessed to me “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven.” If he was correct, and I usually found he was, then there’s a hell of a lot of good Protestants champing at the bit to get through the pearly gates. Some of them have been waiting nearly 500 years. And I suspect a similar situation exists for the Orthodox Church, in which case some have been waiting nearly 1000 years.

I think God will one day get fed up with our divisions and force the issue,

There’ll be those who still refuse, but then, it’s their choice, and their eternity.
 
Thanks for the link to the Orthodox Info article. As an Anglican, the idea that many protestants are looking for a pope, a final authority, resonates with me. There is a modernist seduction to want to explain everything–for the Protestant, using the Bible; for the Roman Catholic, using the magisterium. Mystery is muddle, even though it may help us to avoid error.
 
Speaking specifically of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions, I wonder:

What could each side “give up” without sacrificing doctrine?

I don’t know much about Orthodoxy, but surely there are things and traditions about the papacy that could be “sacrificed,” so to speak, in order to make it easier to reunify, aren’t there?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head, but let’s see… like giving up some titles? Or… maybe changing how we say the creed to deal with the filioque issue (is that even an issue anymore after the joint 2003 recommendation?) Maybe allowing more local adaptation of rites and customs?

🤷

I am coming at this issue without much background, so maybe it’s much more complex than that. But it seems like the issues are so petty, once you take out all the historical actions that are called “atrocities” by both sides. I mean, the Church is now. Why are so many focused on the past? Let’s do this thing.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
Some of them have been waiting nearly 500 years. And I suspect a similar situation exists for the Orthodox Church, in which case some have been waiting nearly 1000 years.
Click to expand...
This is really nonsense, if you just take the time to think about it.

But I don’t blame you for thinking like this, it is what you were taught!

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Unam Sanctam 1302

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his Angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Cantate Domino, 1441
quoting (in part) Saint Fulgentius

This is really a Gospel of hate.

www.goarch.org

Great Lent, Holy Week, and Pascha in the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Orthodox Church

Great Lent is a period of time when the people are more conscious of their spiritual character. The passages of the Gospels and the Epistles, the hymnology and prayers, the spirit of the Church - all endeavor to help the Christian cleanse himself spiritually through repentance.
www.goarch.org www.goarch.org

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–’

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."Luke 18:10-14 NAB

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. Matthew 23:13 NAB
 
Hesychios said:
This is really nonsense, if you just take the time to think about it.

But I don’t blame you for thinking like this, it is what you were taught!

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Unam Sanctam 1302

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his Angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Cantate Domino, 1441
quoting (in part) Saint Fulgentius

This is really a Gospel of hate.

Great Lent, Holy Week, and Pascha in the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–’

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."Luke 18:10-14 NAB

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. Matthew 23:13 NAB
Click to expand...
Seems to me the first true step toward unity will be when all of us come to the table of dialogue with the character of the tax collector, and not the pharisee. For then, and only then, will the Holy Spirit be unemcumbered by our pride and therefore able to lead us all.

Jon
 
SonofMonica said:
Speaking specifically of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions, I wonder:

What could each side “give up” without sacrificing doctrine?

I don’t know much about Orthodoxy, but surely there are things and traditions about the papacy that could be “sacrificed,” so to speak, in order to make it easier to reunify, aren’t there?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head, but let’s see… like giving up some titles? Or… maybe changing how we say the creed to deal with the filioque issue (is that even an issue anymore after the joint 2003 recommendation?) Maybe allowing more local adaptation of rites and customs?

🤷

I am coming at this issue without much background, so maybe it’s much more complex than that. But it seems like the issues are so petty, once you take out all the historical actions that are called “atrocities” by both sides. I mean, the Church is now. Why are so many focused on the past? Let’s do this thing.
Click to expand...
OK, it’s a good question.

I once read of this concept: Christian variations in belief is like a (really big, imaginary) wagon wheel and we each take a place on the spokes radiating out toward the rim. Each one in a separate direction, some of us are grouped together in little bunches, some of us are strung out near the rim. The hub doesn’t move, we do. No one is at the hub anymore.

The only way we can actually come close to each other is to all head back toward the hub, at the very center. That represents the Received Teaching of Christ through the Apostles. :grouphug:

It would be helpful if we could just drop all of our innovations and novel scholastic notions and get back to the simple Faith of the early Fathers. Those traditions that have introduced the most over the years will have a longer trip back to center, and more to give up, but it cannot be helped.

http://www.awagonwheel.com/cart/images/catalog_large/ornamental36inA.jpg
 
phoenix3212 said:
I thought there was less animosity going on between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but apparently that’s not so.
Click to expand...
I don’t like Clark Carlton’s writing style.

He is an Orthodox equivalent to the Catholic Dave Armstrong (whom I also do not care for).

However, there is no mistaking the message, these guys are usually pretty we grounded in their beliefs, if less than subtle.

One has to remember that these arguments are behind the pleasant dialog and flowery public compliments of the church leadership. When the BIG GUYS meet, they are trying to overcome a long history of antagonism and misunderstanding, they are quite well aware of how big a job that is and yet for the sake of Christ they persist. Perhaps that is why progress seems so slow to us…

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/B013_PatriarchBartholomew_Pope02.jpg
 
Hesychios said:
OK, it’s a good question.

I once read of this concept: Christian variations in belief is like a (really big, imaginary) wagon wheel and we each take a place on the spokes radiating out toward the rim. Each one in a separate direction, some of us are grouped together in little bunches, some of us are strung out near the rim. The hub doesn’t move, we do. No one is at the hub anymore.

The only way we can actually come close to each other is to all head back toward the hub, at the very center. That represents the Received Teaching of Christ through the Apostles. :grouphug:

It would be helpful if we could just drop all of our innovations and novel scholastic notions and get back to the simple Faith of the early Fathers. Those traditions that have introduced the most over the years will have a longer trip back to center, and more to give up, but it cannot be helped.

http://www.awagonwheel.com/cart/images/catalog_large/ornamental36inA.jpg
Click to expand...
Very nicely said! While it might be a bigger sacrifice for some, I think the end will be well worth it. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top