Christian unity: Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox unity possible; unity with Protestants impossible

[Hesychios]

Unity at the expense of orthodox belief is a perverse unity.

I would say it is no unity at all.

 

[BRB1]

In regards to Protestants Churches or Non-Catholic Christians / Evangelicals / Born-Again Christians: I do not think unity with the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church is possible. .

Prediction: Protestants will return to the Mother Church before the Eastern Orthodox does.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This is really nonsense, if you just take the time to think about it.

But I don’t blame you for thinking like this, it is what you were taught!

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Unam Sanctam 1302

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his Angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Cantate Domino, 1441
quoting (in part) Saint Fulgentius

This is really a Gospel of hate.

Great Lent, Holy Week, and Pascha in the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–’

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."Luke 18:10-14 NAB

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. Matthew 23:13 NAB

It’s not what I was “Taught” at all. I’m relying on experience plus common sense. When Luther divided the church with immense violence, with Williiam Shirer quoting a decline in Germany’s population over the next century from 16 million to 6 million, and “Henry VIII took England out of the Catholic Faith, starting a fierce persecution of Catholics who remained steadfast in their loyalty to Rome and to the Mass of Tradition in 1534 that saw over 72,000 Catholics, nearly three percent of the population of England at the time, slaughtered by the brute force of the State by the time that Henry died of a certain contagious disease in 1547.” ( I suspect that the 72,000 may not all have been catholics, but a lot of them were), I wonder if God’s just going to say, “No sweat, divide my church all you like, kill as many as you like, tell as many lies as you like about my church, ridicule and down-play my Son’s statement to Peter as you like, negate my Son’s statements on His Blood and Body as much as you like, and make them merely symbolic; persist in your stupid divisions in My Name as much as you like, and I won’t even care.”

Sure. Yet in actual fact, I hardly hear a word raised in Catholic circles about this issue. It was in fact, my old PROTESTANT pastor who commented that he didn’t think God was as easy going at the division of HIS church as we are, in case you didn’t get what I said.

And I found he was extremely accurate.

In fact, a couple of years after he died, I actually had an unexpected vision of him when he said to me, “We’re not in heaven. Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, in fact, it’s pretty good, so you don’t have to worry about that. But we’re not in heaven.”

You might think God doesn’t care about the bloody division of His Church and the aftermath of hundreds of years of mutual persecution and intolerance, but I think we’re going to find out He does care. And isn’t impressed.

 

[Harpazo]

Prediction: Protestants will return to the Mother Church before the Eastern Orthodox does.

Well, for Orthodox, we do not have a Mother Church. If you think about it, Christianity is actually an Eastern religion that was carried West.

However, I, like many others, would love to see Rome bring the Protestants back into the fold before there is any union. Another idea I had for “Protestantism to end” is for both Catholics and Orthodox to convert them, then Rome and the Orthodox can reconcile with each other. Will it happen? I’m no prophet. Just an idea.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[trophybearer]

Well, for Orthodox, we do not have a Mother Church. If you think about it, Christianity is actually an Eastern religion that was carried West.

However, I, like many others, would love to see Rome bring the Protestants back into the fold before there is any union. Another idea I had for “Protestantism to end” is for both Catholics and Orthodox to convert them, then Rome and the Orthodox can reconcile with each other. Will it happen? I’m no prophet. Just an idea.

In Christ,
Andrew

I wish I could believe protestantism will ever end. Maybe I’m wrong, I pray I am, but I don’t hold out much hope for soooooooo many different not even united under a single faith let alone any real hierarchy returning to the Apostolic Faith. Maybe some groups will here and there, but I have a feeling the only hope is to bring them into the fold person by person.

 

[Hesychios]

It’s not what I was “Taught” at all. I’m relying on experience plus common sense. When Luther divided the church with immense violence, with Williiam Shirer quoting a decline in Germany’s population over the next century from 16 million to 6 million, and “Henry VIII took England out of the Catholic Faith, starting a fierce persecution of Catholics who remained steadfast in their loyalty to Rome and to the Mass of Tradition in 1534 that saw over 72,000 Catholics, nearly three percent of the population of England at the time, slaughtered by the brute force of the State by the time that Henry died of a certain contagious disease in 1547.” ( I suspect that the 72,000 may not all have been catholics, but a lot of them were), I wonder if God’s just going to say, “No sweat, divide my church all you like, kill as many as you like, tell as many lies as you like about my church, ridicule and down-play my Son’s statement to Peter as you like, negate my Son’s statements on His Blood and Body as much as you like, and make them merely symbolic; persist in your stupid divisions in My Name as much as you like, and I won’t even care.”

Sure. Yet in actual fact, I hardly hear a word raised in Catholic circles about this issue. It was in fact, my old PROTESTANT pastor who commented that he didn’t think God was as easy going at the division of HIS church as we are, in case you didn’t get what I said.

And I found he was extremely accurate.

In fact, a couple of years after he died, I actually had an unexpected vision of him when he said to me, “We’re not in heaven. Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, in fact, it’s pretty good, so you don’t have to worry about that. But we’re not in heaven.”

You might think God doesn’t care about the bloody division of His Church and the aftermath of hundreds of years of mutual persecution and intolerance, but I think we’re going to find out He does care. And isn’t impressed.

Well don’t lump the Orthodox in with that!

It is the Latin church which broke the communion, not the other way around. Your current sources may not be very upfront about it, but if you read good solid scholarship you will discover that to be the case.

And the Latin church can easily correct this situation, making us one again, but we cannot do that for you. We Orthodox cannot reverse your changes, we can only admonish you.

Peace, and all good things…prayers all around,

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Well don’t lump the Orthodox in with that!

It is the Latin church which broke the communion, not the other way around. Your current sources may not be very upfront about it, but if you read good solid scholarship you will discover that to be the case.

And the Latin church can easily correct this situation, making us one again, but we cannot do that for you. We Orthodox cannot reverse your changes, we can only admonish you.

Peace, and all good things…prayers all around,

As a rule, I keep out of the debate when it comes to the Orthodox Church mainly because I’ve had no personal experience of it, other than a singular attendance at ain infant baptism (or I should say Baptisms) in a Greek Orthodox Church (which was all Greek to me). But as a former Protestant I know how Protestants think.

I made the comment about 1000 years since obviously I now believe in the primacy of Peter and the Catholic Church. But to be honest I’m mainly concerned with the Protestant split. I’ll leave it to others to argue about the Eastern / Orthdox split and reconciliation. I’ll give you a few incidents involving the old pastor to show you why I thought he was probably accurate. Most of the comments were made around 1990/91.

1. He warned a young bloke if he didn’t stop riding his motor-bike stupidly he “wouldn’t last two weeks”. He buried him precisely two weeks later.
2. Around 1990/91 he commented to me “I think there’ll be a Second Gulf War. The Americans will have had enough of Saddam Hussein and they’ll get rid of him. But I think they might lose a few men the next time.”
3. “I think he (his eldest son) will have his health damaged”, c1990/91. HIs son had a stroke about five years later.
4. “I don’t think your sister will live very long. I think she might get leukemia.” c. 1990/91. She died at 45 of leukemia in 2005.
5. “I think you’ll become Catholic.” c. 1990/91. I joined the Catholic Church in 1996.
6. “I think you’ll be doing a cleaning job. You won’t be doing it for long. I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost.” c 1990/91. In 2006 I did a cleaning job for about four months. I was being shown a store when the instructor remarked “This place is haunted.” There’s a bit of a story to it, but a former manager committed suicide in the basement in the 1960’s. I believe my role was to get a mass said for him.

So … when someone as accurate as him makes the comment, “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven”, you sit up and take note.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Well don’t lump the Orthodox in with that!

It is the Latin church which broke the communion, not the other way around. Your current sources may not be very upfront about it, but if you read good solid scholarship you will discover that to be the case.

And the Latin church can easily correct this situation, making us one again, but we cannot do that for you. We Orthodox cannot reverse your changes, we can only admonish you.

Peace, and all good things…prayers all around,

As a rule, I keep out of the debate when it comes to the Orthodox Church mainly because I’ve had no personal experience of it, other than a singular attendance at ain infant baptism (or I should say Baptisms) in a Greek Orthodox Church (which was all Greek to me). But as a former Protestant I know how Protestants think.

I made the comment about 1000 years since obviously I now believe in the primacy of Peter and the Catholic Church. But to be honest I’m mainly concerned with the Protestant split. I’ll leave it to others to argue about the Eastern / Orthdox split and reconciliation. I’ll give you a few incidents involving the old pastor to show you why I thought he was probably accurate. Most of the comments were made around 1990/91.

1. He warned a young bloke if he didn’t stop riding his motor-bike stupidly he “wouldn’t last two weeks”. He buried him precisely two weeks later.
2. Around 1990/91 he commented to me “I think there’ll be a Second Gulf War. The Americans will have had enough of Saddam Hussein and they’ll get rid of him. But I think they might lose a few men the next time.”
3. “I think he (his eldest son) will have his health damaged”, c1990/91. HIs son had a stroke about five years later.
4. “I don’t think your sister will live very long. I think she might get leukemia.” c. 1990/91. She died at 45 of leukemia in 2005.
5. “I think you’ll become Catholic.” c. 1990/91. I joined the Catholic Church in 1996.
6. “I think you’ll be doing a cleaning job. You won’t be doing it for long. I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost.” c 1990/91. In 2006 I did a cleaning job for about four months. I was being shown a store when the instructor remarked “This place is haunted.” There’s a bit of a story to it, but a former manager committed suicide in the basement in the 1960’s. I believe my role was to get a mass said for him.

So … when someone as accurate as him makes the comment, “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven”, you sit up and take note.

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Bob,

… I’ll give you a few incidents involving the old pastor to show you why I thought he was probably accurate. Most of the comments were made around 1990/91.

1. He warned a young bloke if he didn’t stop riding his motor-bike stupidly he “wouldn’t last two weeks”. He buried him precisely two weeks later.
2. Around 1990/91 he commented to me “I think there’ll be a Second Gulf War. The Americans will have had enough of Saddam Hussein and they’ll get rid of him. But I think they might lose a few men the next time.”
3. “I think he (his eldest son) will have his health damaged”, c1990/91. HIs son had a stroke about five years later.
4. “I don’t think your sister will live very long. I think she might get leukemia.” c. 1990/91. She died at 45 of leukemia in 2005.
5. “I think you’ll become Catholic.” c. 1990/91. I joined the Catholic Church in 1996.
6. “I think you’ll be doing a cleaning job. You won’t be doing it for long. I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost.” c 1990/91. In 2006 I did a cleaning job for about four months. I was being shown a store when the instructor remarked “This place is haunted.” There’s a bit of a story to it, but a former manager committed suicide in the basement in the 1960’s. I believe my role was to get a mass said for him.

So … when someone as accurate as him makes the comment, “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven”, you sit up and take note.

Interesting account of you old pastor. He seemed to know things beyond knowing.

Have you any idea why he never became Catholic or Orthodox himself?

*Michael
*

 

[Bob_Crowley]

He made a couple of other comments also -

“Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church” &

“I think Martin Luther was the false prophet. Some of the things Luther said and did weren’t very Christian”. (I’ve since read “Martin Luther - Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor” by Peter Wiener, which was an eye opener. It’s can be read on the web, as it’s more than 50 years old and no longer subject to copyright.)

Now since he gave “Luther” as the middle name of his second youngest son, he’d obviously changed his opinion somewhere along the line.

When he made the above comments, I asked him, "If you believe that, then why are you still Protestant. He replied, “They (the Catholic Church) have done a lot of damage at times”. As a man who knew his church history, it was not wise to argue with him. He was also aware even then of the storm that was about to break over the allegations of paedophilia, with his comment “There’s been a lot of them (complaints, accusations).” So the church does have a few things to answer for (mind you, if we collated Protestant statistics via insurance companies, I think we’d find a similar story).

I personally suspect he was moving towards the Catholic Church. But he’d already jumped ship once, from Uniting Church to Presbyterian, was in his mid 60’s, and probably wondered if the turmoil would be worth it. He died in 1992. I think I have a vague memory of him saying to me, “Well, I’ve started moving towards the Catholic Church. That’s if I live long enough.” He was dying of cancer when we had some of these conversations.

At one stage we were discussing the papacy. A look of judgment must have come over my face in response to some comment he made (I’ve seen this look of judgment on the faces of others - God somehow seems to use their features to get across a warning) and he pulled up short, rather startled.

The next time we met, he said “The last you were here, you shook my faith to the core.” I asked him what the hell he was talking about. He mentioned the papal discussion and the look of judgment. Then he said, “It’s a heresy! (the protestant position on the papacy). That’s what worries me! OH, WHY NOW??!!” (As I said he was dying).

Then he shrugged, and said “Well, the Lord knows I’ve tried to serve Him” and left it at that. He had served God well too.

In a nutshell, I think he was moving towards the church but didn’t quite get there. When someone has been brought up in a Protestant environment, taught, preached, lived etc. it takes a real seachange of opinion to jump ship. Suspicion of Catholicism is part of their mother’s milk.