Christian unity seems to be more focused on Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism rather than Protestant Christians

[Isa_Almisry]

Now, I will say that most of the EOs of the old forum were faithful to the Patriarch of Moscow, not the Patriarch of Constantinople, who seems different.

We went through this. Very few except Fr. Ambrose were under PoM, and he just recently. But yes, a lot of us like Moscow, for reasons stated.

But then, the EOs regard the Monks of Athos, an island off Greece as pretty much the final authority in all things.

I stated that when I hear Holy Mountain, I think of Sinai.

Very few of us were worshippers of Athos, Reader Arsenios being one of a few. But yes, we all respect them, and their zeal in Orthodoxy, though all may not agree. And no, they don’t get a final say in anything, but their words carry weight (it’s been earned).

Btw, its a peninsula.

The Athos Monks generally seem to side with Moscow and against Constantinople, and criticized the Patriarch of Constantinople bitterly for even meeting with the Pope in Istanbul.

There is also a battle between Constantinople and Moscow

and Rome

over the Ukraine.Some Orthodox there claim to be subject to Constantinople, but Moscow claims jurisdiction over the entire Ukraine. Moscow’s representative walked out of the Ravenna conference because of it. There are other places like that in contention.

You’re confusing Estonia and Ukraine.

All of Ukraine is canonically under Moscow, and has been for centuries. Moscow, however, is preparing for Ukraine’s canonical independence. As it is in Estonia. The problem there is no small part due to the fact that the PoM is himself Estonian.

Orthodoxy is extremely territorial, and absolutely opposes Catholic Church presence worldwide.

No. We just don’t like ya’ll coming to us, setting up rival patriarchates, strongarming hiearchs into forced/coerced unions as preludes to Latinization, etc…

One of our first martyrs in North America, St. Peter the Aleut, was so by the Spanish Inquisiton in California. Don’t want those Orthodox where they don’t belong!

The EO have some problems of their own, and unity is one of them.

This is so. But we are not as disunited, nor you as united, as you make out.

Now, the situation with the Oriental Orthodox is more complicated still. That’s not a small thing, because nobody really knows how many EOs there are vs OOs.

how about how many EO, and how many OO, there are?

The EOs count national populations in their membership, not who actually goes to church, so it’s hard to know.

And the Latins don’t do this?

Russia, for example, is far and away the biggest part of EO “membership”, but only about 1-3% of them ever go to Church, and nobody knows how many Russians believe in anything.

Apply the same standard to Western Europe, including Italy.

I’ve seen plenty of polls on what American “Catholics” believe, if anything.

Btw, in Brazil, the largest Latin country in the world, more pentacostals are in church on Sunday than Latins at mass. How Protestant Latin America is is a big question.

But there are definitely a lot of OOs in the world, the largest single concentration, seemingly, being in Ethiopia.

This is true, one of the largest (and most ancient) Christian societies in the world.

The EO consider the OO “heretics”

Actually, no, a large number, perhaps the majority, of EO see no substantial difference and would allow intercommunion (which is going on). But a large, respected EO number do see the OO so.

and I’m pretty sure the feeling is mutual.

Actually, I’ve never heard any OO say so, and their Churches have all officially said they do not see the EO as heretics, and do not rebaptize them.

So, its definitely not a matter of some negotiation between Rome and Constantinople over things like the date of Easter. Far from it.

Its not just Rome and Constantinople, and the persistence in narrowing down to that is in itself a problem.

I’m not putting Orthodoxy down here, though I am sure this post will draw lots of argument, mostly not addressing what I am really saying.

Pleae point out what I have failed to address.

My point, and my ONLY point is that unity will be an exceedingly difficult undertaking, and Catholics generally are not aware of how difficult it will be.

ah, on that we are totally agreed.

Pax vobiscum.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt that,

I’ve given you some reasons above.

then unity is not possible under these circumstances.

No, it wouldn’t be. So Gratia Deo non veritas est.

To say that the Bishop of Rome is not validly consecrated, and a heretic, is to say that the division is not to healed.

No, it is to say that it has not been healed.

Unification is made an impossibility. And the Eastern Church says we are insensitive? To win acceptance, we have to allow them to chop us off at the knees, punch is in the gut, stab us through the heart, and club us to death.

Actually not to harp, but you guys were the ones who came into our homes and chopped us off at the knees, punched us in the gut, stabbed us through the heart, and clubbed us to death.

The Crusades lasted two centuries. Vatican II is yet a half century away.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”. Let them take their victory with this short sentence. And we thought the Cold War was bad.

extra Ecclesiam nulla salus was the battle cry of a Latin Father in the Patriarchate of the West against the Pope of Rome.

You got more to worry with Laa ilaaha illa Allaah waMuhammad Rasul Allah.

Peace

Pax vobiscum

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If it’s not a big deal, why do the Orthodox continue to reject the western Church’s method to calculate the date of Easter?

Because we stick to the one the Fathers laid down at Nicea in an Ecumenical Council. One patriarch doesn’t over turn that in our book.

 

[mgrfin]

Still, if the Pope has declared that he wants a common date for Easter, why do Catholics object to adopting the Eastern Orthodox date?

Why bother? It doesn’t matter. It is so far down on the list of things the East has problems with.

Since they seem to have doctrinal issues with the West, the calculation of Easter is a pittance.

peace

 

[lak611]

Because we stick to the one the Fathers laid down at Nicea in an Ecumenical Council. One patriarch doesn’t over turn that in our book.

Why is it that sometimes Easter is the same date for the Eastern and Western Church?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Why is it that sometimes Easter is the same date for the Eastern and Western Church?

sometimest the dates just happen to coincide, if the paschal moon is early enough.

 

[peary]

The Vatican said that it wanted a common date for Easter.

**So, if the Vatican said that it wanted a common date for Easter and changes its calculations to conform to the Orthodox churches, why is this such a big deal? Yes, it would show that the Western Church is serious about eventual unification, but unification is a two-way street. Why not the Orthodox change its calculations to conform to the Western church?

In a previous post I said that any serious and lasting unification would revolve about the Eucharist. Both churches have a valid Eucharist. If unification is going to take place at all, it needs to center on the Eucharist. Everything else will then fall into place.**

 

[peary]

**The initial cause of the schism was that the pope at the time decreed the Eucharist in the orthodox churches located within Italy must use unleavened bread. This so enraged the patriarchs in the east that they unanimously decreed that Latin rite Catholics in their countries must use leavened bread and intinction.

As I said and say again, the unification of both the eastern and western church needs to center on the Eucharist. Both have valid Eucharists. The center of unity is the Eucharist. Once this is worked out, everything else will fall into place.**

 

[bobzills]

So, if the Vatican said that it wanted a common date for Easter and changes its calculations to conform to the Orthodox churches, why is this such a big deal? Yes, it would show that the Western Church is serious about eventual unification, but unification is a two-way street. Why not the Orthodox change its calculations to conform to the Western church?.

In other words, when the Vatican says that it wants a common date for Easter, what it really means is that it wants the Orthodox Church to give up its two thousand year old tradition and change its calculations and submit to the Roman Catholic method of calculating the date?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**So, if the Vatican said that it wanted a common date for Easter and changes its calculations to conform to the Orthodox churches, why is this such a big deal? Yes, it would show that the Western Church is serious about eventual unification, but unification is a two-way street. Why not the Orthodox change its calculations to conform to the Western church?

**

could be the history of the West forcing the Orthodox (and the uniates) to change our calculations to conform to the West.

 

[lak611]

could be the history of the West forcing the Orthodox (and the uniates) to change our calculations to conform to the West.

What are the uniates?

 

[bobzills]

The initial cause of the schism was that the pope at the time decreed the Eucharist in the orthodox churches located within Italy must use unleavened bread. .

Why was it required for the Orthodox Churches to use unleavened bread when the Eastern Catholic Churches today can use leavened bread? When Eastern Orthodox were called before the Inquisition, were they required to admit to their heresy of using leavened bread for the Eucharist, or be tortured? People are going around here on this thread accusing the peace loving Orthodox Christians of all kinds of imaginary horrendous crimes, when in truth, it was the Catholics who brought the Orthodox before the inquisition and threatened them with torture? And it was the Catholic crusaders who invaded, violently assaulted, destroyed and robbed the peace loving Orthodox Christians during the fourth Crusade, and not the other way around as the posters here want us to believe.

 

[peary]

In other words, when the Vatican says that it wants a common date for Easter, what it really means is that it wants the Orthodox Church to give up its two thousand year old tradition and change its calculations and submit to the Roman Catholic method of calculating the date?

By the very fact that you ignored my previous posts about the Eucharist as a source of unity between east and west branches of the Catholic Church shows me that you are not serious about the discussion. I humbly submit no further posts on this matter.

 

[peary]

Why was it required for the Orthodox Churches to use unleavened bread when the Eastern Catholic Churches today can use leavened bread? When Eastern Orthodox were called before the Inquisition, were they required to admit to their heresy of using leavened bread for the Eucharist, or be tortured? People are going around here on this thread accusing the peace loving Orthodox Christians of all kinds of imaginary horrendous crimes, when in truth, it was the Catholics who brought the Orthodox before the inquisition and threatened them with torture? And it was the Catholic crusaders who invaded, violently assaulted, destroyed and robbed the peace loving Orthodox Christians during the fourth Crusade, and not the other way around as the posters here want us to believe.

All it shows is that, when you have these types of people running the church, you can’t fix stupid.

 

[mgrfin]

**The initial cause of the schism was that the pope at the time decreed the Eucharist in the orthodox churches located within Italy must use unleavened bread. This so enraged the patriarchs in the east that they unanimously decreed that Latin rite Catholics in their countries must use leavened bread and intinction.

As I said and say again, the unification of both the eastern and western church needs to center on the Eucharist. Both have valid Eucharists. The center of unity is the Eucharist. Once this is worked out, everything else will fall into place.**

I wish there were a weighty issue: unleavened vs. leavened bread, and the date of Easter.

Could we find some more insignificant issues to keep this rend in the Body of Christ fresh and new?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

I wish there were a weighty issue: unleavened vs. leavened bread, and the date of Easter.

Could we find some more insignificant issues to keep this rend in the Body of Christ fresh and new?

Oh, right the Filoque. Is there anything else that is so momentous? We have to keep the squabble on.

peace

 

[Catholic29]

Why was it required for the Orthodox Churches to use unleavened bread when the Eastern Catholic Churches today can use leavened bread? When Eastern Orthodox were called before the Inquisition, were they required to admit to their heresy of using leavened bread for the Eucharist, or be tortured? People are going around here on this thread accusing the peace loving Orthodox Christians of all kinds of imaginary horrendous crimes, when in truth, it was the Catholics who brought the Orthodox before the inquisition and threatened them with torture? And it was the Catholic crusaders who invaded, violently assaulted, destroyed and robbed the peace loving Orthodox Christians during the fourth Crusade, and not the other way around as the posters here want us to believe.

Regardless of who happens to be right in this case, and I’m not denying that atrocities were committed in the name of whom ever’s branch of Christianity. But its abundantly apparent to me that centuries of mistrust and animosity have built up and probably for good reason. If attitudes like these persist I’m not sure East-West unity is possible, even if all the canonical and theological issues are bridged.

Of course we should bear in mind that the longer Christianity is divided, it will give athiests and secularists in general more ammunition for their cause. As well as any other religious sect who sees our disunity as evidence for our wrongness.

 

[Hellisreal]

I have a general impression that the Catholic Church seem to focus more on unity towards the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Protestant Christians.

The Joint Commision of Catholic-Orthodox Mission made a statement on recently concerning the talks in Ravenna, Itaty (Oct 8-14, 2007).

Any comment why this is so?

I think you have highlighted the biggest flaw on both sides.

Why did neither side focus more on unity with the Jewish people?

 

[Hellisreal]

What are the uniates?

PM me, its a very controversial topic.

 

[mgrfin]

What are the uniates?

They are Eastern rite Catholics still in union with Rome, and who recognize Papal Authority, including infallibility.

peace