Christian Unity

[Peter_J]

P.S. We need to get you and Stilldreamn together …

Peter J;12359996:

But joking and super exaggerations aside, I think the first (sub-)question here is this: Should we double (or triple, quadruple, etc) are efforts to convert them? (Of course, we can’t really discuss that in front of you, since your in the “them” category. )

By all means go right ahead! Lutherans are sort of low-hanging fruit on the heresy tree anyway.

 

[Christian_Unity_1]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses. I would like to point out there are two sides to every coin. I don’t consider one’s denomination needing to absorb the other for Christian Unity. Both denominations and many other Christian denominations who accept the Creeds are part of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church… the one true spiritual Church.

Note I don’t consider Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses or any of those other cults Christians.

I don’t believe on judgement day one’s denomination will have any contribution to one’s salvation. The differences in doctrine and tradition are man-made, but can certainly be spiritually guided. I see many don’t think one needs to be denomination X to be saved. God will decide who is sincere on judgement day. Works are a consequence of a sincere heart not a measurement, so all who are saved will have works. But works are not a measuring stick to determine salvation.

Luther’s issues with the Church of 1500’s involved corruption and dogma Luther felt were used to increase the Church’s power. Luther did not create a new Church, but demanded change with the existing Church. After the 1500’s Church excommunicated Luther his followers continued practicing these reforms and evolved into the Lutheran Church and most of the Protestants we have today.

OK I’m expecting all kinds of rebuttals of my above comments, but before posting think about if on judgement day will these denominational difference decide someone’s salvation? If not why is any denomination the true Church and others not?

Also the comment about the hymns was great. I almost fell off my pew the first time I was looking at the hymns titles in the Catholic Church hymnal. What in the world were “Amazing Grace” and “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” doing in the hymnal? Granted I have yet to hear Protestant hymns during Mass but seeing Martin Luther, John Calvin and many other Protestant heretics’ names listed in the hymnal was shocking.

Finally I live in an extremely liberal community and the Catholic Church is very diverse in many ways. There is even a lesbian teacher in my son’s Catholic school!

All of this taken together makes me think Christian Unity is inevitable and much closer than many here are willing to accept.

 

[ffg]

I like your questions there in the middle - “if on judgement day will these denominational difference decide someone’s salvation? If not why is any denomination the true Church and others not?”

Great pondering questions.

From a very simple angle, if there is truth and truth is 1 option. Multiple options have to mean something different than if there was one.

It would be important to note we don’t know the extent of God’s mercy, though we know it must be great as we are sinners and alive!

I think the answer would be - ‘depends’ right? Depends on if someone truly knows they are rejecting that which God taught through Jesus, and further through His Church he left behind. Or if one lives a life the best way they know how and do not know of or why there are other details.

So from a Catholic perspective, telling a non-Catholic Christian that the last supper gives clarity that God meant what He said in John 6 and shows us the method by which this miracle would be accomplished in our nature. Is this a detail that makes the denominational differences matter?

I would think so since in John 6 it talks about life and not having life by not partaking.

We should all want everyone to partake where the true meaning and substantive effects (abundant graces) of Jesus’ teachings are taking place.

I really like a quote I just heard this morning that was said to be from St. Bernadette, though I can’t find it online and wanted to use it as my signature…

“I was not asked to convince you, I was asked to tell you.” (Maybe from St. Bernadette)

We don’t want to bypass the fullness of truth because we don’t think it matters.

 

[Tomdstone]

I don’t believe on judgement day one’s denomination will have any contribution to one’s salvation. … before posting think about if on judgement day will these denominational difference decide someone’s salvation?

Denominational differences will make a difference on judgement day because:

1. Only Catholics can receive plenary indulgences which will wipe away all temporal punishment due to sins which have already been forgiven.
2. On the other side, if you are Catholic and eat a hot dog on a day of abstinence, you have committed a mortal sin (provided the other required conditions are present) and if you do not repent, you will go to eternal fire in hell. But if you are Protestant, you can eat a hot dog on a day of Catholic abstinence, and it will not affect your salvation one way or the other.

 

[guanophore]

About you being able to recieve communion on your sons first communion, Im awfully sorry but I can’t see it happening unless you convert to the Catholic Faith or the Lutheran Church drop their heresy and convert their whole church, which is highly unlikely…

Yours in Jesus and Mary

• MarianCatholic

Don’t be discouraged by these kinds of comments, Christian.

John Paul II has spoken on the relationship between the Eucharist and ecumenism in his encyclical “Ecclesia de Eucharistia”: in No. 46 of the encyclical, the Pope reminds us of those rare cases, and under what conditions, non-Catholic Christians may be admitted to the sacraments of the Eucharist, reconciliation and anointing of the sick.
Exceptions are made in cases like yours, if your faith in the eucharist is Catholic (you believe in the Real Presence). I know that there are members of mixed marriages who are permitted by the Pastor to participate in Communion once they have satisfied him that they do profess the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty of Christ present. Don't hesitate to approach the Pastor soon in this regard.

 

[JonNC]

Don’t be discouraged by these kinds of comments, Christian.

John Paul II has spoken on the relationship between the Eucharist and ecumenism in his encyclical “Ecclesia de Eucharistia”: in No. 46 of the encyclical, the Pope reminds us of those rare cases, and under what conditions, non-Catholic Christians may be admitted to the sacraments of the Eucharist, reconciliation and anointing of the sick.

Exceptions are made in cases like yours, if your faith in the eucharist is Catholic (you believe in the Real Presence). ** I know that there are members of mixed marriages who are permitted by the Pastor to participate in Communion once they have satisfied him that they do profess the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty of Christ present.**  Don't hesitate to approach the Pastor soon in this regard.

Hi guan,
Of course, that should be true of all Lutherans, but wouldn’t it have to be permisson from the bishop, rather than by the parish priest?

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Hi guan,
Of course, that should be true of all Lutherans, but wouldn’t it have to be permisson from the bishop, rather than by the parish priest?

Jon

Ultimately it is the responsibility of the Bishop, though some trust a certain Pastor to reflect their mind in the matter.

 

[JonNC]

Ultimately it is the responsibility of the Bishop, though some trust a certain Pastor to reflect their mind in the matter.

Gotcha.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Hi guan,
Of course, that should be true of all Lutherans, but wouldn’t it have to be permisson from the bishop, rather than by the parish priest?

Jon

It would depend (like guanophore said).

This is an area where our practice differs from the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Welcome to CAF Christian_Unity!!

Some of the old music is tough to handle, but it’s quite interesting when you see like 1267 as the original date of the music.

There was one the other day that was really old, even the priest said something like 'did you all catch we just sang to a tune from (I think it was in) the 8 or 900’s.

Take care,

Mike

I noticed that yesterday, one of the hymns we sang listed ARCHDIOCESE OF PHILADELPHIA for the credit.

WHAT IS THIS?? We have been infiltrated!

Beautiful song though - thanks…

 

[ffg]

I noticed that yesterday, one of the hymns we sang listed ARCHDIOCESE OF PHILADELPHIA for the credit.

WHAT IS THIS?? We have been infiltrated!

Beautiful song though - thanks…

That’s funny and actually kind of interesting. I wouldn’t mind learning the song name, if you happen to remember.

I am curious how essentially a region of the Church gets credit for a song.

I wonder if a priest in the diocese wrote it and the rules are like corporate rules where the products we create for the company are always the company’s property.

In my case that’s excel and powerpoint files.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Stilldreamn]

That’s funny and actually kind of interesting. I wouldn’t mind learning the song name, if you happen to remember.

I am curious how essentially a region of the Church gets credit for a song.

I wonder if a priest in the diocese wrote it and the rules are like corporate rules where the products we create for the company are always the company’s property.

In my case that’s excel and powerpoint files.

Take care,

Mike

It was “Gift of Finest Wheat” - the refrain stuck in my mind, “You satisfy the hungry heart”

 

[ffg]

It was “Gift of Finest Wheat” - the refrain stuck in my mind, “You satisfy the hungry heart”

Thanks!

Interesting info here on the song…

hymnary.org/text/as_when_the_shepherd_calls_his_sheep

snip:

First Line: As when a shepherd calls his sheep
Title: Gift of Finest Wheat
Author: Omer Westendorf (1976)
Meter: 8.6.8.6 D
Refrain First Line: You satisfy the hungry heart
Copyright: Text and music © 1977, Archdiocese of Philadelphia. All rights reserved.

 

[Discerning13]

Yes, I would be very happy if the Catholic Church returned to unity with the church. But I am afraid there is a long way to go.

You’re a member of the man made religion created 1500 years after Christ. L.O.L

 

[Tomdstone]

You’re a member of the man made religion created 1500 years after Christ. L.O.L

Protestants claim they reformed the Church, not that they created a new one.

 

[Peter_J]

I noticed that yesterday, one of the hymns we sang listed ARCHDIOCESE OF PHILADELPHIA for the credit.

WHAT IS THIS?? We have been infiltrated!

Crazy right? All these modern liberals thinking that Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants can share songs with each others.

 

[guanophore]

You’re a member of the man made religion created 1500 years after Christ. L.O.L

Welcome to the thread, Discerning13.

Please strive to be charitable in our discussion. We are all required to respect the faith of each other.

Your statement seems to be a contradiction to the Catechism, which clearly states that Protestants are our siblings in Christ, and have the right to be called Christians. Christianity is the religion founded by Christ.

 

[JonNC]

You’re a member of the man made religion created 1500 years after Christ. L.O.L

I choose not to speak for other communions, but Lutherans preach Christ crucified. There is no other founder of the One Holy Church, of which we are a part…as are you.

Jon

 

[Lek]

Christian unity will never come about by one side fully accepting the beliefs of the other. Unity will only occur if we can come to together as a body and accept that we have different opinions concerning doctrine, but are still all members of Christ’s church. A large number of protestants can accept this concept, but I don’t think the catholic church will ever come to that point. If it hadn’t been for the secular power of the CC, I feel pretty certain that there would have been numerous break offs long prior to Luther’s time. Prior to Luther the CC was able to put a stop to any such attempts.

Concerning possible unity between the CC and the Anglicans and Lutherans: On the outside they appear similar in many ways, but on the inside the differences are very profound, especially pertaining to the Lutherans. I would be fine with seeing a reunion, but it surprises me that anyone would think that there’s a chance that Lutherans would abandon sola scriptura and “faith alone”.

Honestly, though, many others and I already believe that there is one church that is in unity as followers of Christ, regardless of denomination.

 

[Peter_J]

Christian unity will never come about by one side fully accepting the beliefs of the other. Unity will only occur if we can come to together as a body and accept that we have different opinions concerning doctrine, but are still all members of Christ’s church.

I.e. if we all accept your view, right?