Christianity, is it sexist?

[dessert]

What about it? As if Christians are the solution to the worlds problems. Catholics and Protestants have been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years. Great example for the world.

And women( with assistance ) are murdering babies, early or mid or late term all the same it is life. There is only forgiveness through the person of Jesus the Christ because that is the way it is. Take it or leave it, Christians, Protestants, Catholics would agree and you will always find some one to agree with you as the best example was Eve? What if she had said NO wouldn’t our lifes have been better so exercise that right and say no to the liar of all liars, Bless you in your search but I am done with this thread I guess . Dessert

 

[RyanL]

Wasn’t Jesus a male fetus chosen by your god? Why not a female?

You ready for some seriously sexist theology?

Ok. Let’s do this.

Short answer: Jesus was a man so that he could be the Husband of the Church, His Bride. It is important that the Church be female (ever heard the term “Holy Mother Church”) because of the Eucharist.

Why does the Church need to be female because of the Eucharist?

Because in the Eucharist we, the Church, receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ substantially into ourselves. Did you get that? It’s nuptial language. We receive Christ into ourselves. Now think of the marital act. Who receives whom? In an act of self-giving, life-giving love, the woman receives the body of the man into herself and the man gives himself to his wife in turn. He enters her from without, and she receives him. This is how God comes to us - as an outsider. And we, in turn, receive Him. This is not the other way around.

What are the implications of this?

In relation to God, we are ALL female. This is why Christ needed to be male.

How’s that for sexist?

If Christ was a female, the imagery wouldn’t work. If the Church was male, the imagery wouldn’t work. There’s sound theology behind the imagery, and if you change the imagery you change the theology.

This is the teaching behind the Theology of the Body. Get a book.

Did you think the following were an accident?
Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

John 3:29
28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Ephesians 5:31
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the Church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

The Church’s teaching is sexist, alright - just not how you think.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[deb1]

You ready for some seriously sexist theology?

Ok. Let’s do this.

Short answer: Jesus was a man so that he could be the Husband of the Church, His Bride. It is important that the Church be female (ever heard the term “Holy Mother Church”) because of the Eucharist.

Why does the Church need to be female because of the Eucharist?

Because in the Eucharist we, the Church, receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ substantially into ourselves. Did you get that? It’s nuptial language. We receive Christ into ourselves. Now think of the marital act. Who receives whom? In an act of self-giving, life-giving love, the woman receives the body of the man into herself and the man gives himself to his wife in turn. He enters her from without, and she receives him. This is how God comes to us - as an outsider. And we, in turn, receive Him. This is not the other way around.

What are the implications of this?

In relation to God, we are ALL female. This is why Christ needed to be male.

How’s that for sexist?

If Christ was a female, the imagery wouldn’t work. If the Church was male, the imagery wouldn’t work. There’s sound theology behind the imagery, and if you change the imagery you change the theology.

This is the teaching behind the Theology of the Body. Get a book.

Did you think the following were an accident?
Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

John 3:29
28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Ephesians 5:31
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the Church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

The Church’s teaching is sexist, alright - just not how you think.

God Bless,
RyanL

That was pretty cool!

Nacy Lew, I think that you have come across some very bad Christians who have sadly colored the way that you view the rest of us. Chances are you have come across good, and compassionate Christians also but it is always the bad ones that stick in our mind.

 

[rtconstant]

That’s odd. To be honest I’d always got the impression God liked women more than men lol. When you look at Jesus and Mary as the new Adam and the new Eve then you see that it took God Himself clean up Adam’s legacy lol.

Moses was the greatest prophet of the OT. He led the nation of Isreal out of Egypt, governed over this unruly people, led them to the promised land and performed Hollywood level miracles yet he hits a rock twice and is denied entrance into the Holy Land. Rahab on the other hand was a prostitute who hides a couple of Jewish guys and she gets to be an ancestor of Jesus

I realize that there are heavier theological reasons for all of the above but really on the surface it seems like God takes a lighter touch with women than men.

Jesus himself kept women around Him all the time in spite of the fact that culture at the time regarded them as little better than cattle.

A woman was the first evangelist of Christ’s resurrection.

Do we even have to start on Mary?

I think that today things have got so twisted around that women are raised to hate being women and so glorify manly traits above all. Even though they often glorify the masculine traits that even men should do away with. Women themselves have become so enthralled with male splendor that they often now dispise those things that are uniquely feminine like giving birth. Somehow being mothers went from the foundation of human soceity to being the worst possible curse a woman could bear. The Irony is that these attitudes are often pushed by those who claim to be “empowering” women.

So if you think feminine traits are bad, then yes Christianity would seem sexist to you.

 

[RyanL]

That was pretty cool!

Orthodoxy is revolutionary. It’s the heresies that are mundane.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Nancie_Lew]

You ready for some seriously sexist theology?

Ok. Let’s do this.

Short answer: Jesus was a man so that he could be the Husband of the Church, His Bride. It is important that the Church be female (ever heard the term “Holy Mother Church”) because of the Eucharist.

Why does the Church need to be female because of the Eucharist?

Because in the Eucharist we, the Church, receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ substantially into ourselves. Did you get that? It’s nuptial language. We receive Christ into ourselves. Now think of the marital act. Who receives whom? In an act of self-giving, life-giving love, the woman receives the body of the man into herself and the man gives himself to his wife in turn. He enters her from without, and she receives him. This is how God comes to us - as an outsider. And we, in turn, receive Him. This is not the other way around.

What are the implications of this?

In relation to God, we are ALL female. This is why Christ needed to be male.

How’s that for sexist?

If Christ was a female, the imagery wouldn’t work. If the Church was male, the imagery wouldn’t work. There’s sound theology behind the imagery, and if you change the imagery you change the theology.

This is the teaching behind the Theology of the Body. Get a book.

Did you think the following were an accident?
Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

John 3:29
28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Ephesians 5:31
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the Church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

The Church’s teaching is sexist, alright - just not how you think.

God Bless,
RyanL

What does it mean when it says that the man is the Glory of God and the woman is the Glory of the man? It sounds like only the man is made int the image of God.

 

[Rach620]

Jumping in on a few points here…

As far as the quotes from the Church Fathers go, it is important to recognize the level of authority which they are given. Only Scripture is considered the divinely revealed, ‘certain’ Word of God. While the Fathers can shed light and have aided/helped/allowed for the understanding of Faith, not every word spoken by every Father was divinely inspired or should even guide us on matters of doctrine.

Origen, Augustine, Ambrose, and the others you quoted all contributed important concepts/understandings to Christian faith, but they themselves were not always free from error. (Origen’s a good example–he’s considered a Father for his ideas about ‘faith seeking understanding’ and the end of the person in God, etc., but had some sketchy beliefs about the relationship of body & soul–which led him to castrate himself when faced with lust–and even seemed to believe in the ‘transmigration of souls,’ ie reincarnation, after death.)

I believe that some of those quotations were taken out of context or exaggerated, but for those that weren’t, the fact that the Fathers had culturally acceptable views of women and incorporated them into their own theology is not shocking. Nor does this destroy any faith we can have in their authority on other matters.

You got to be kidding! Giving birth to a baby is the last thing I want to do. I look forward to the time when every baby will come from a test tube. The womans ability to give birth only makes her dependent on a man.

sigh This is THE error of modern/radical feminism: not recognizing our fertility as part of our identity as women, rather than something to be suppressed at all costs. Why is the man, who is able to have sex w/o consequences and ‘unburdened’ by pregnancy, the paradigm of what it means to be human? Why does it make sense–from a feminist perspective–to insist that we are not equal until we are exactly the same as men, even in our reproductive capacity?

IT DOESN’T. Our fertility is a gift, one which men and the culture which they have largely created, do not appreciate in the least. Separating a woman from her fertility–an enormous part of her identity–leaves you with a shell of a ‘wannabe’ man. It is then that she doesn’t know what she stands for, or what she wants, and purports to hate the very thing (MAN) which she is emulating in every other aspect of her life.

Susan B. Anthony, one of the first feminists, was pro-life because she firmly believed that no woman would choose to knowingly kill her own child; it was the invasion of patriarchy into her own life. Couldn’t the same be said of test-tube babies? If woman’s life-giving capacity were appreciated–as it should be–in its fullness by our culture, no woman would be wishing to separate themselves from it.

 

[Rach620]

Jumping in on a few points here…

As far as the quotes from the Church Fathers go, it is important to recognize the level of authority which they are given. Only Scripture is considered the divinely revealed, ‘certain’ Word of God. While the Fathers can shed light and have aided/helped/allowed for the understanding of Faith, not every word spoken by every Father was divinely inspired or should even guide us on matters of doctrine.

Origen, Augustine, Ambrose, and the others you quoted all contributed important concepts/understandings to Christian faith, but they themselves were not always free from error. (Origen’s a good example–he’s considered a Father for his ideas about ‘faith seeking understanding’ and the end of the person in God, etc., but had some sketchy beliefs about the relationship of body & soul–which led him to castrate himself when faced with lust–and even seemed to believe in the ‘transmigration of souls,’ ie reincarnation, after death.)

I believe that some of those quotations were taken out of context or exaggerated, but for those that weren’t, the fact that the Fathers had culturally acceptable views of women and incorporated them into their own theology is not shocking. Nor does this destroy any faith we can have in their authority on other matters.

You got to be kidding! Giving birth to a baby is the last thing I want to do. I look forward to the time when every baby will come from a test tube. The womans ability to give birth only makes her dependent on a man.

sigh This is THE error of modern/radical feminism: not recognizing our fertility as part of our identity as women, rather than something to be suppressed at all costs. Why is the man, who is able to have sex w/o consequences and ‘unburdened’ by pregnancy, the paradigm of what it means to be human? Why does it make sense–from a feminist perspective–to insist that we are not equal until we are exactly the same as men, even in our reproductive capacity?

IT DOESN’T. Our fertility is a gift, one which men and the culture which they have largely created, do not appreciate in the least. Separating a woman from her fertility–an enormous part of her identity–leaves you with a shell of a ‘wannabe’ man. It is then that she doesn’t know what she stands for, or what she wants, and purports to hate the very thing (MAN) which she is emulating in every other aspect of her life.

Susan B. Anthony, one of the first feminists, was pro-life because she firmly believed that no woman would choose to knowingly kill her own child; it was the invasion of patriarchy into her own life. Couldn’t the same be said of test-tube babies? If woman’s life-giving capacity were appreciated–as it should be–in its fullness by our culture, no woman would be wishing to separate themselves from it.

 

[RyanL]

What does it mean when it says that the man is the Glory of God and the woman is the Glory of the man? It sounds like only the man is made int the image of God.

We are all made in the image and likeness of God. This is basic Christian teaching:
**
Galatians 3:28**
There is **neither **Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

In our intellect and rational soul, we all image the Creator. In our bodies, the imagery is changed. Go re-read my post. Equal does not mean “the same”. A dollar bill is equal to four quarters, but the two are completely different with different capabilities. Don’t confuse issues.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Nancie_Lew]

I will ask again, where did you find these quotes? Online? Please post the site. In a book? Title and author.

Where did you look these up?

Have you ever heard of Mary Daly?

 

[FCEGM]

Have you ever heard of Mary Daly?

Wellllllllll; no wooonnnnder. Millstones and all that come to mind. I like how the Spiritual Counterfeits Project newsletter phrased it: “. . .Mary Daly and her sisterhood of stunted women.”

But for every corrupter of minds and souls there are those such as Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand who help light the way to Christ. I hope you find the light someday.

FINIS

 

[Jennifer123]

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28

Before Jesus Christ, I was a slave to this society and my own fallen desires. Sex? Why not? Drink? Why not? I’m not hurting anyone. I foolishly placed my trust in society and it’s subjective sense of morality rather than what was TRUE. The world told me I WAS free.

I realized however that I wasn’t really free. I had no limits. If I couldn’t limit myself, then what was I other than some lower animal that acted purely on instinct rather than reason? I was a slave to my desire. I by definition wasn’t a rational person. It wasn’t freeing, it was a prison of my own making. Worst of all, I was hurting people who weren’t willing or able to tell me so. I was hurting myself and running from what I knew in my heart to be true. I was ashamed of my behavior, not because patriarchical society told me so, but because I knew it deep down inside it was wrong. I just didn’t have the words or capacity of understanding to know WHY.

Everyone who believes this radical feminist c**p is in my prayers. It’s the biggest lie sold to "womyn"kind. And women are the biggest victims. Contraception? Abortion? Now THAT’S misogyny of the highest order, and any honest person can objectively look at the state of the world since the mid-20th century and see what a disaster moving away from Judeo-Christian ethics has become.

 

[mercygate]

There’s nothing wrong with feminist theology. I have read the Bible for myself that is why I don’t care for Christianity. Christians are always forcing their morality on other people particularly women and gays. That’s why I am a feminist. I believe in equality for all people.

There is a lot wrong with feminist theology, when it assumes that the basic principles of morality can be reduced to a matter of rights-for-me. Feminist theology supports abortion. Talk about forcing your morality on other people!

Christian morality is not a matter of blind force. It is based in the natural law. The natural moral law is as violable as the law of gravity…

 

[mercygate]

Have you ever heard of Mary Daly?

Oi. No wonder. How about in the interest of responsibility and objectivity, giving equal time to the other side?

 

[Nancie_Lew]

O.K!.. maybe I have been a bit harsh regarding Christianity. After reading the posts on this thread you made some valid points. I still don’t like the fact that women can’t be priests, cardinals, bishops or pope but its your church and no one is forcing you to be Catholic. Protestant Christianity appeals to me more because they allow women and gay preachers.

 

[mercygate]

What would have happened if only Adam had eaten the apple? Eve would still have inherited a sinful nature from Adam, been thrown out of Eden and had to suffer regardless of whether she ate the fruit. How is that for a just god?

Interesting. But note that they did both eat. So “what ifs” are rather begging the question. One rabbinic tradition (I think) says that Adam did it for love of Eve so they would not be separated.

I would say that since Adam and Ever were created male and female to be one flesh, fairness has very little to do with anything. Adam was “with her” (says the text), he should have stepped to forestall the act. They were both culpable.

Fairness has very little to do with much in life, since it is kind of a 12-year-old’s pinnacle of ethical judgment. Many things are not reducible to a playground ethical system.

 

[RyanL]

O.K!.. maybe I have been a bit harsh regarding Christianity.

That is very big of you to say. You have my admiration.

I still don’t like the fact that women can’t be priests, cardinals, bishops or pope…

Actually, there’s no reason why women can’t be cardinals, other than it might send an undesired message regarding their suitability for holy orders.

Since holy orders aren’t required for the position, it wouldn’t surprise me to see one in my lifetime. Personally, I think Dr. Janet Smith would be an excellent candidate.

Protestant Christianity appeals to me more because they allow women and gay preachers.

There are good Biblical reasons why we do not permit it, and if you don’t believe the Bible…what other truths are up for grabs?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[deb1]

O.K!.. maybe I have been a bit harsh regarding Christianity. After reading the posts on this thread you made some valid points. I still don’t like the fact that women can’t be priests, cardinals, bishops or pope but its your church and no one is forcing you to be Catholic. Protestant Christianity appeals to me more because they allow women and gay preachers.

Not all Protestants ordain women. Many are against this practice.

Thank you very much also for saying that we made some valid points.

 

[mercygate]

Betttttt you are thinking offfff Star trek sexistssssss let’s start oh let’s notttt as I would get pulmulated with tomatoes or star beammed to planet pluto but than I would have fun with Mickey oh but I am married so Minnie and I could go to a reteat or something! :bowdown2: to captain whoo?
Dessert

Wish I could share the laugh, but I do not know anything about Star Trek other than that Leonard Nimoy had to wear wax ears.

 

[Jennifer123]

O.K!.. maybe I have been a bit harsh regarding Christianity. After reading the posts on this thread you made some valid points. I still don’t like the fact that women can’t be priests, cardinals, bishops or pope but its your church and no one is forcing you to be Catholic. Protestant Christianity appeals to me more because they allow women and gay preachers.

Thank you for your honest reply. I’m glad we were able to change your perception a little.

There used to be much about the Church I wanted to change. Then I realized (many years later) that if there was no source of Christian truth, then it really didn’t matter much. I admitted in my heart that I didn’t know everything (amazing huh? ) and that I had to trust the Lord, that He indeed gave the “keys” to someone and that was Peter, who built His Church with that authority. I may not understand everything but I give my trust to the Church that He founded. I give the Church the benefit of the doubt, time for me to learn why the Church teaches what it does, and then place my trust in the Church.

We all place our trust in something.

Bless you on your journey. If that leads you to Protestantism, congrats! Any road that leads to Jesus is fine by me. I just hope you don’t stop there and maybe head all the way to Rome!!