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MariaG
Guest
I will ask again, where did you find these quotes? Online? Please post the site. In a book? Title and author.
Where did you look these up?
- Status
Where did you look these up?
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deb1
Guest
Wait are you really a younger version of myself come back to haunt me?
This is exactly what I would have said as a younger woman! I thought that I was a good person and I, suppose in a sense, I was. I didn’t hurt anyone. I tried not to lie or cheat and I tried to put myself in others places before I acted. By the world’s standards I was a pretty good person. Like you, I was also pretty open minded when it came to sex.When I became a Christian, God opened my eyes to how sinful I was. My first problem was listening to gossip. I didn’t pass on gossip, just listen. But think how many people that I hurt by encouraging others to gossip.
Sin is doing something that is displeasing to God and we all do these things. You don’t have to be a bad person to sin, you only have to be human.
Sex is meant to be a holy act. Someone on this forum said that the marital act was a prayer to God. How beautiful! I know that I became burnt out on the emptiness of some of my sexual relationship despite the fact that the act was consensual.
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havemercy
Guest
Why did that me laugh insidiously?
Well, the Tertullian quote seems legit. He’s know for his divergent opinions. So is Origen. I’m not sure about Augustine – I’m pretty sure someone paraphrased him for their own purposes, per usual. I can’t see the rest saying that stuff, especially Ambrose and John, though its certainly possible.
I’d very much like to know where these quotes are being sourced from.
D
dessert
Guest
And the angel Gabriel said, Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. And the angel said do not be afraid Mary for you have found favor with God. Completeness
Dessert
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JamesG
Guest
I think the very fact that Mary (a woman) gave birth to God (jesus) is prof enough that Christianity isn’t sexists. It shows that women are important and are part of Gods plan.
Only the catholic church understands the importance of women and with it the acceptance of mary who is blessed among them.
Many people today seem to think that women are the same as men and that the only difference is physical. These people couldn’t be more wrong. The soul itself also has a gender and with it all the qualities that are unique to it (male or female)
Many people today want to be fathers and they want men to be mothers. Some women want the impossible and they are told from a young age that historically they were the slaves of men. It is rather sick and perverted way of looking at the world.
Anyone that thinks christianity is sexist is a fool and very uneducated on catholic theology. They need to focus on Mary say a few rosarys and then go to confession for their disrespect of men and the roles of the church fathers.
Only the catholic church understands the importance of women and with it the acceptance of mary who is blessed among them.
Many people today seem to think that women are the same as men and that the only difference is physical. These people couldn’t be more wrong. The soul itself also has a gender and with it all the qualities that are unique to it (male or female)
Many people today want to be fathers and they want men to be mothers. Some women want the impossible and they are told from a young age that historically they were the slaves of men. It is rather sick and perverted way of looking at the world.
Anyone that thinks christianity is sexist is a fool and very uneducated on catholic theology. They need to focus on Mary say a few rosarys and then go to confession for their disrespect of men and the roles of the church fathers.
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Rawb
Guest
The Bible IS sexist! Look at how it describes MEN! All our gender does in the Bible is lust after women (in rather large multitudes), quest for power, start wars and hoard money. It was men who crucified Jesus! It was a man who betrayed Jesus! Men are the ones who don’t trust God enough when taking on the Caananites or even when fishing, and men who are portrayed as too stupid to understand Jesus parables.
Compare them to women: Women follow Jesus, are the first to his tomb! There’s a prophetess at Jesus’ presentation at the temple and it’s a woman who first shows how humble she is by washing Jesus’ feet in expensive oil (and a man who complains). A woman got to carry God himself! Why couldn’t that have been a man? A woman was healed because of her faith by merely touching The Lord’s robe, but men have to come and ask Jesus for help.
And another thing! All the men are either big muscely warriors or wise old prophets! Where’s the average Joe? Nothing’s mentioned of Mary Magdalene’s looks, or of Martha and Mary, or Our Lady’s looks.
Yep. The Bible is sexist alright.
(Sort of a matter of perspective, isn’t it?)
Compare them to women: Women follow Jesus, are the first to his tomb! There’s a prophetess at Jesus’ presentation at the temple and it’s a woman who first shows how humble she is by washing Jesus’ feet in expensive oil (and a man who complains). A woman got to carry God himself! Why couldn’t that have been a man? A woman was healed because of her faith by merely touching The Lord’s robe, but men have to come and ask Jesus for help.
And another thing! All the men are either big muscely warriors or wise old prophets! Where’s the average Joe? Nothing’s mentioned of Mary Magdalene’s looks, or of Martha and Mary, or Our Lady’s looks.
Yep. The Bible is sexist alright.
(Sort of a matter of perspective, isn’t it?)
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rciadan
Guest
You and most of the other posters here keep discussing OT women. While the OT is exceedingly important, it shows us how it was before Christianiity. Your question is whethor or not Christianity is sexist, is it not? You won’t find the evidence, either way, in the OT. The OT is before Christ. If you truly seek the truth found in the NT you will find abundant evidence that Christ is indeed the great equalizer! Twas He who first advanced the concept that women are equal to men. Notice that He did not make the mistake that so many make today: He did not say “the same as”; but rather, He stresses that women are equal to. Christ is the one who truly and absolutely frees women and makes it possible to live up to thier fullest potential. Without Christ no woman can achieve real freedom or equality…
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LilyM
Guest
And the position today, where women and men DO have equal rights in marriage and divorce and STILL dump each other by fax and text message - and 50% of all marriages fail - is SOOOOO much better and more conducive to marital happiness!
You hit on precisely the right point but are looking at it in the wrong way. A woman who is brought up with the idea that marriage is permanent is one who will indeed think long and hard before she marries in the first place. That’s a GOOD thing. Better single for life than unhappily married and/or divorced.
And such a woman will also be one who after marriage actually works at making the marriage succeed instead of running to the divorce court the first time he leaves the top off the toothpaste tube.
As for Augustine - a previous poster has pointed out that he honoured his own mother Monica’s wish to have masses said for her soul. Clearly he well believed she had one.
More than that, I’m reading his Confessions at the moment and he writes passages which praise Monica’s holiness to the skies - and reports his teacher and mentor Ambrose as also praising her.
In contrast Augustine writes about himself complete with all his sinful, harmful, self-destructive and selfish warts. And he credits his own conversion to Catholicism and a healthier spiritual state primarily to Monica’s example and prayers.
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Aleii
Guest
Found this page through a google search as I was curious to as well. It gives the sources at the end of the quotes.
global-dialogue.com/swidlerbooks/biblical-affirmation.htm
§339. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-215) His beard, then, is the badge of a man and shows him unmistakably to be a man. It is older than Eve and is the symbol of the stronger nature. By God’s decree, hairiness is one of man’s conspicuous qualities, and, at that, is distributed over his whole body. Whatever smoothness or softness there was in him God took from him when he fashioned the delicate Eve from his side to be the receptacle of his seed, his helpmate both in procreation and in the management of the home. What was left (remember, he had lost all traces of hairlessness) was manhood and reveals that manhood. His characteristic is action; hers, passivity. For what is hairy is by nature drier and warmer than what is bare; therefore, the male is hairier and more warm-blooded than the female; the uncastrated, than the castrated; the mature, than the immature. Thus it is a sacrilege to trifle with the symbol of manhood [the beard]. (Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus 3.3)
§340. Origen (A.D. 185-254) What is seen with the eyes of the creator is masculine, and not feminine, for God does not stoop to look upon what is feminine and of the flesh. (Origen, Selecta in Exodus XVIII.17, Migne, Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 12, cols. 296f.)
It is not proper to a woman to speak in church, however admirable or holy what she says may be, merely because it comes from female lips. (Origen, quoted in Tavard, Woman in Christian Tradition, p. 68)
§342. Epiphanius (A.D. 315-403) For the female sex is easily seduced, weak, and without much understanding. The devil seeks to vomit out this disorder through women… We wish to apply masculine reasoning and destroy the folly of these women. (Epiphanius, Adversus Collyridianos, Migne, Patrologia Graeca, Vol 42, cols. 740f.)
§343. John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407) Should you reflect about what is contained in beautiful eyes, in a straight nose, in a mouth, in cheeks, you will see that bodily beauty is only a whitewashed tombstone, for inside it is full of filth. (John Chrysostom, Letter to Theodora, Ch. 14, Sources chrétiennes, Vol. 117, p. 167)
§345. Tertullian (A.D. 160-225) In pains and anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward thine husband (is) thy inclination, and be lords it over thee.” And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway; you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert-that is, death-even the Son of God had to die. (Tertullian, De cultu feminarum 1. 1, The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 40, pp. 117f.)
§346. Ambrose (A.D. 339-397) Whoever does not believe is a woman, and she is still addressed with her physical sexual designation; for the woman who believes is elevated to male completeness and to a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; then she no longer bears the worldly name of her physical sex, and is free from the frivolity of youth and the talkativeness of old age. (Ambrose, Expositio evangelii secondum Lucam, liber X, n161, Migne, Patrologia Latina, Vol. 15, col. 1844)
§349; Augustine (A.D. 354-430) How then did the apostle tell us the man is the image of God and therefore he is forbidden to cover his head, but that the woman is not so, and therefore she is commanded to cover hers? Unless according to that which I have said already, when I was treating of the nature of the human mind, that the woman, together with her own husband, is the image of God, so that the whole substance may be one image, but when she is referred to separately in her quality as a helpmeet, which regards the woman alone, then she is not the image of God, but, as regards the man alone, he is the image of God as fully and completely as when the woman too is joined with him in one. (Augustine, De Trinitate, 7.7, 10)
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Auntie_A
Guest
A few thoughts, a few rebuttals, a few questions:
First, “Humans: are they sexist?” Well, we can all take a stab here. I say yes we are. Therefore so are Christians, so are atheists, so are Wiccans, so are…
Next, “I believe everyone is equal”…Everyone wants to claim equality for themselves but where do you see equality offered? Is a male priesthood a sign of inequality? Could men have a greater need for male priests than women need female priests? It seems to take a lot more effort to shape male spirituality than female; ask any priest or minister, nun, or shaman.
It was Christianity that fueled the early fights for women’s rights and civil rights in general. Now as we get to the 20th century, we see the eugenicists step in and hijack women’s rights with groups like Planned Parenthood. Margaret Sanger was not the hero that your Women’s Studies’ professor claimed. She was very much into “Ethnic Cleansing”, a term I detest so can we just call it genocide? Look what birth control and abortion have done to the African-American families? What about the Jewish families that used to be so large? Or even a nice Wiccan family? Abortion and contraceptives were supposed to reduce child abuse. Check the statistics: it has increased! When we introduce the idea of wanted and unwanted into society, suddenly EQUALITY becomes a bit unachievable. Look at the out-of-proportion male population in China. People are choosing the male fetus over the female fetus. Can I suggest that we are “choosing” our way into oblivion?
Check the high rates of domestic abuse and addiction with gays & lesbians. And check the tolerance for homosexuality in non-Christian cultures vs. Christian cultures.
Show me the Wiccan histories and bibles that demonstrate how enlightened THEY were? Infanticide? Ritual Abuse & Sacrifice? Many converted to Christianity because they saw women and children were treated with more respect. So much of the Wiccan culture is a modern day fabrication. I listened at the feminist lectures about how WE had to “invent our own myths” since the old ways (HIStory) were so oppressive. Too many neo-pagans and neo-wiccans are getting their history from TV. I sat in those women’s studies classes too and had to listen to the critiques of Judeo-Christian culture but did they show me the alternative? Our post-modern, social-engineered utopia has STD’s, violent or depressed (but self-actualized) kids (with over-inflated self-esteem)? Neurotic men and women? Years of therapy to recover from your parent’s divorces (but THEY are happy and fulfilled now so it’s all okay? ) More pornography which turns women and children into sex objects?
“But at least we are not hypocrites” “It’s consensual”
“Who are you to say or judge?” “It’s all against women.”
“What about sexual abuse?” “What about rape?”
“What about the Inqisition?” “What about witch burning?”
All of the same questions keep coming up for the last hundred years, even after some of the wisest minds have already answered them.
Quoting scripture is good but I think, as Catholic Christians we might also be able to answer the WICCAN WANNABEES with a few questions right back: “Is it really consensual?” "What is wrong with judgment (not the playing God kind of judging but the discerning kind that keeps our hearts, minds, bodies and souls truly free)? “Are Wiccans immune from child abuse or sexual abuse?” Or does all power have a tendency to corrupt? Do humans need a moral overhaul no matter what they believe?
I sat in the same stalls in the college library rest room and read the same graffiti and heard the same discussions. The dogma of radical feminism was even more oppressive than anything my crotchety pastor ever said. I do not deny there are sexists amongst Christians, ancient and comporary, but in Christianity there is just no room for sexism. The best feminist criticisms of Christian theologians were Christians. The best advocates for women and men and equality are still Jesus and his mother Mary.
First, “Humans: are they sexist?” Well, we can all take a stab here. I say yes we are. Therefore so are Christians, so are atheists, so are Wiccans, so are…
Next, “I believe everyone is equal”…Everyone wants to claim equality for themselves but where do you see equality offered? Is a male priesthood a sign of inequality? Could men have a greater need for male priests than women need female priests? It seems to take a lot more effort to shape male spirituality than female; ask any priest or minister, nun, or shaman.
It was Christianity that fueled the early fights for women’s rights and civil rights in general. Now as we get to the 20th century, we see the eugenicists step in and hijack women’s rights with groups like Planned Parenthood. Margaret Sanger was not the hero that your Women’s Studies’ professor claimed. She was very much into “Ethnic Cleansing”, a term I detest so can we just call it genocide? Look what birth control and abortion have done to the African-American families? What about the Jewish families that used to be so large? Or even a nice Wiccan family? Abortion and contraceptives were supposed to reduce child abuse. Check the statistics: it has increased! When we introduce the idea of wanted and unwanted into society, suddenly EQUALITY becomes a bit unachievable. Look at the out-of-proportion male population in China. People are choosing the male fetus over the female fetus. Can I suggest that we are “choosing” our way into oblivion?
Check the high rates of domestic abuse and addiction with gays & lesbians. And check the tolerance for homosexuality in non-Christian cultures vs. Christian cultures.
Show me the Wiccan histories and bibles that demonstrate how enlightened THEY were? Infanticide? Ritual Abuse & Sacrifice? Many converted to Christianity because they saw women and children were treated with more respect. So much of the Wiccan culture is a modern day fabrication. I listened at the feminist lectures about how WE had to “invent our own myths” since the old ways (HIStory) were so oppressive. Too many neo-pagans and neo-wiccans are getting their history from TV. I sat in those women’s studies classes too and had to listen to the critiques of Judeo-Christian culture but did they show me the alternative? Our post-modern, social-engineered utopia has STD’s, violent or depressed (but self-actualized) kids (with over-inflated self-esteem)? Neurotic men and women? Years of therapy to recover from your parent’s divorces (but THEY are happy and fulfilled now so it’s all okay? ) More pornography which turns women and children into sex objects?
“But at least we are not hypocrites” “It’s consensual”
“Who are you to say or judge?” “It’s all against women.”
“What about sexual abuse?” “What about rape?”
“What about the Inqisition?” “What about witch burning?”
All of the same questions keep coming up for the last hundred years, even after some of the wisest minds have already answered them.
Quoting scripture is good but I think, as Catholic Christians we might also be able to answer the WICCAN WANNABEES with a few questions right back: “Is it really consensual?” "What is wrong with judgment (not the playing God kind of judging but the discerning kind that keeps our hearts, minds, bodies and souls truly free)? “Are Wiccans immune from child abuse or sexual abuse?” Or does all power have a tendency to corrupt? Do humans need a moral overhaul no matter what they believe?
I sat in the same stalls in the college library rest room and read the same graffiti and heard the same discussions. The dogma of radical feminism was even more oppressive than anything my crotchety pastor ever said. I do not deny there are sexists amongst Christians, ancient and comporary, but in Christianity there is just no room for sexism. The best feminist criticisms of Christian theologians were Christians. The best advocates for women and men and equality are still Jesus and his mother Mary.
S
st_lucy
Guest
[SIGN]Well done![/SIGN]
Thank you! You said everything I was thinking and was unable to write.
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Nancie_Lew
Guest
You got to be kidding! Giving birth to a baby is the last thing I want to do. I look forward to the time when every baby will come from a test tube. The womans ability to give birth only makes her dependent on a man.
I saw one of Ophrah Winfreys Oxygen programs and some doctor said they are doing research on women’s menstrual cycles. They found that if they delay the onset of a girls first period than that girl grows bigger and stronger than normal. I think something like that is impressive…not giving birth to ten kids.
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st_lucy
Guest
How very sad for you. giving birth to a child is the most amazing gift that God has given to a person. Women alone are personally touched by the hand of God when their child is put in their womb.
I have only given birth twice. I am told not to give birth again because I am at high risk of death during labor. I of course leave this up to God and not my doctors. I how ever cannot seem able to carry to term so it seems a moot point. But Though the pain is great it is well worth the wonderful child you hold in your arms. It is something that is beyond words.
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Nancie_Lew
Guest
I still would like to know what the Bible’s definition of dominion for women is? Is it owning a couple of goldfish and planting a flower garden? The word dominion means to rule what are we ruling over…air?
I don’t want to be limited in whatever I want to do with my life. If I choose to be a coal miner or whatever what business is it of you Christians? What does choosing a profession have to do with morals or being a woman anyway? I have met a few church going women that Christians would define as sluts. Maybe the woman in the coal mine doesn’t sleep around like the church lady? Women should be judged by their characters not by what jobs they do in life or whether they attend church.
By the way… there are no male only jobs. In some countries the women do all of the agricultural jobs and yet the Bible says that Adam was to tend the land.
I don’t want to be limited in whatever I want to do with my life. If I choose to be a coal miner or whatever what business is it of you Christians? What does choosing a profession have to do with morals or being a woman anyway? I have met a few church going women that Christians would define as sluts. Maybe the woman in the coal mine doesn’t sleep around like the church lady? Women should be judged by their characters not by what jobs they do in life or whether they attend church.
By the way… there are no male only jobs. In some countries the women do all of the agricultural jobs and yet the Bible says that Adam was to tend the land.
S
st_lucy
Guest
I think that post #87 explains it well. I will post it here again since you seem to have missed it.
S
st_lucy
Guest
I think that your point has been argued already. Up until the 1960’s when women wanted all the attention there really wasn’t that big of concern of male only jobs. Most families did work at home farming until the turn of the century. This included the wife and children. In fact there are many places here in the US that this lifestyle still exists. It is a lie that women weren’t allowed to do these tasks.
If you have ever been in a marriage you can see that it wont work if one of the partners claims ownership of the other. Love cannot grow in that kind of marriage. I am pretty sure this is not anything new, and i look at my own grandparents who were married for 67 years and I can tell there was probably hard times but never did my grandfather ever say he owned my grandmother she would have killed him. So I am not sure were you are going with this idea.
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Nancie_Lew
Guest
What about it? As if Christians are the solution to the worlds problems. Catholics and Protestants have been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years. Great example for the world.
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Ferdinand_Mary
Guest
Please stick to the original topic or this thread will be closed.
Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
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Nancie_Lew
Guest
Wasn’t Jesus a male fetus chosen by your god? Why not a female?
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dessert
Guest
Thank you James G. for your kind words and Mary was a wonderful mother and servant of our God as we all must be to the faith and the Church. Mary was a part of Jesus ministry. and hostess to all his apostles and she was beside him even at the end. She did not go on and bear 10 children but i think that if God would have asked that of her she would have said yes as she probably considered children a blessing not a burden or a problem. It is sad that some have a hard and bitter heart and refuse to let the love of God soften it even a mite, maybe becuse they may have to give some back and this she does not want to do. Yes we do have seperate roles in our lives and we do have partnerships that can only work with the cooperation and respect of the individual. mary was more than a surregate motheer she held the life that gave eternal life to all our souls.
:angel1: Dessert- Status