Christianity, is it sexist?

[lak611]

Thank you again. You keep supplying me with bible refrences when I forget the verse. Thank you! We will have to keep you around on these forums.

You’re welcome. I downloaded e-Sword, so I can easily find verses from a number of translations. It is free. There are some Bibles that you have to pay for, but many including Douay-Rheims are free.

 

[gam197]

Originally posted by Nancy Lew
What would have happened if only Adam had eaten the apple? Eve would still have inherited a sinful nature from Adam, been thrown out of Eden and had to suffer regardless of whether she ate the fruit. How is that for a just god?

We need a theologian to answer this. God is just so I can’t see how Eve would have been punished for Adam’s sin or vise versa. They both sinned in some way and possibly they were different types of sin. This questions could be asked on Ask an Apologist forum.

I once read an article which said that the temptations that were given to Eve were the same temptations given to Jesus.

originally ;posted by Neithan
The Old Testament is ‘sexist’ because it was written when sexism was the norm, as a consequence of the Fall.

Sexism is a part of the fall because we are children of Adam and Eve but the bible is the Word of God, so I don’t believe the Old Testament could have been sexist. There are so many great women in the Old Testament.

In the New Testament, it is Mary who gives her “yes” to God. Mary is central to the redemption.

Single women do have their place in God’s heart. - Mother Teresa.

 

[deb1]

You’re welcome. I downloaded e-Sword, so I can easily find verses from a number of translations. It is free. There are some Bibles that you have to pay for, but many including Douay-Rheims are free.

I was thinking that you were the most knowledgeable person that I had every encountered when it came to the location of bible verses. Now I know that you were cheating!

 

[mlchance]

I’m not a Christian so what does sola scriptura have to do with this thread?

I never said you were a Christian. I said you were sola scriptura fundamentalist, which seems invariably true of non-Christians who attack Christianity. IOW, you claim to have read the Bible (although your obvious lack of knowledge of Scripture at least calls the quality of your reading into question), and you talk as if your woefully inadequate understanding of the Bible is both valid as well as all there is to the story.

It seems to me that Augustine didn’t believe that women had souls. Where did he get that belief? I don’t think it says in the Bible that women don’t have souls so he must have gotten it from Catholic tradition.

See? This is what I’m talking about. St. Augustine certainly did not believe women were soulless, and there is no hint of such an absurd proposition to be found anywhere in Catholic tradition.

Let’s look at few other absurdities:

Christians try to justify polygamy in the Bible…

No, we don’t. In fact, Christianity explicity rejects polygamy.

Christians are always forcing their morality on other people particularly women and gays.

That’s why I am a feminist. I believe in equality for all people.

As if Christianity doesn’t.

I don’t think Martin Luther believed women had souls either.

There is no more validity to this claim than there is to the one about Augustine.

First of all, I don’t need your god because I am not a bad person. I don’t sin.

How wonderful for you to never do anything wrong.

What would have happened if only Adam had eaten the apple? Eve would still have inherited a sinful nature from Adam, been thrown out of Eden and had to suffer regardless of whether she ate the fruit.

Uh huh. Please prove that if only Adam had eaten the apple, then Eve would’ve “inherited a sinful nature from Adam” and been kicked out of Eden.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Imagine23]

It is from the New Testament. Let me ask you this. Do you think that people in general should interupt a service by speaking?

In some of the cultures that Paul ministered to, there were women who had very little social contact. Once they were married they were expected to sit at home and only leave when their husbands allowed them. When these women did go somewhere, they wanted to socialize and talk. In other words they had no knowledge of how to act during a more formal meeting.

Paul, is saying, let the women come to church-something some of the husbands probably were not doing-but teach them to hold off asking questions until after the service.

I’ve never understood why this is a controversial verse. If I was in a church service I would be annoyed if people were talking around me.

Because he was from an Jewish background, Paul could have said, let the women and men be seperated during service. That is what Orthodox Jews do today. The fact, considering his background, that he was all right with the genders being intermingled is pretty amazing to me.

Great rationalization. Let’s hear your justifications of the numerous biblical quotes supporting slavery.

 

[deb1]

Great rationalization. Let’s hear your justifications of the numerous biblical quotes supporting slavery.

This is a thread on sexism. In order not to dissolve into chaos we can only suggest one topic at a time. So, no I will not discuss slavery in this thread.

I’m not trying to be rude. This is just the wrong thread to discuss Slavery.

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

This is just the wrong thread to discuss Slavery.

Agreed. If a discussion regarding slavery is desired, please join the discussion going on here.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary

 

[mlchance]

Great rationalization.

Greay way to dismiss the truth just because you don’t like the answer.

The city of Corinth, in the Apostle’s day, was largely pagan and heavily Greek in culture. Women in Corinth were not citizens. They were barely considered human by the pagan culture there. For example, women were seldom allowed out of the house without a male escort. A woman who spoke in public without permission could be subjected to corporal punishment, up to having a hot needle poked through her tongue.

Christianity, in contrast, asserts that, in Christ, male and female are equal, albeit different. Christian women in Corinth, rejecting pagan sexism (and authentic paganism is always sexist), saw no need to abide by the pagan proscriptions of the dominant society. In doing so, two problems arose. First, some women disrupted the Mass. Second, and more perhaps significantly, they made themselves targets of the pagan majority and placed their health and well-being in jeopardy.

The Apostle wrote the Church in Corinth regarding woman’s conduct for two reasons: (1) to restore order to the Mass, and (2) to protect Christian women from the pagan enemies of the Church.

But, of course, all of this must be just another “rationalization” since you know for a fact that Christianity is sexist.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[John_Hiner]

Why doesn’t God speak to women like he does to men like Abraham, Moses ,etc? Even with the Virgin Mary God didn’t directly speak to her… he sent an angel. Are we not good enough to speak to?

I was once struck by a statue of Jesus and Mary. Jesus was depicted as an infant and Mary was holding Him in her arms and smiling at Him. He was looking intently at her face and His fingers were touching her lips. I have seen babys do this often. Then it dawned on me: Mary taught Jesus to speak.

I think this represents great trust and dignity.

Peace to you and yours.

John Hiner

 

[dessert]

And we can speak to God in prayer, a good one to start out with is the Our Father and the Hail Mary, full of grace. Dessert

 

[deb1]

I was once struck by a statue of Jesus and Mary. Jesus was depicted as an infant and Mary was holding Him in her arms and smiling at Him. He was looking intently at her face and His fingers were touching her lips. I have seen baby’s do this often. Then it dawned on me: Mary taught Jesus to speak.

I think this represents great trust and dignity.

Peace to you and yours.

John Hinger

No other humans have had the experience of becoming pregnant by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit came down upon Mary that must have been an intensely wonderful moment.

She carried Jesus in her womb and nursed him at her breast. You simply can not get more intimate then that.

 

[st_lucy]

Christians are always forcing their morality on other people particularly women and gays. That’s why I am a feminist. I believe in equality for all people.

these statments always give me a little laugh.

So you say that Christians are always forcing their morality on other people. Well Lets take a look at the Feminist movement. THey have forced us to swallow all the lies they believe for example, it is not only okay but good for a women to be able to kill her own children. How many women are suffering today by this huge lie. How about the lie that it is okay for women to have many partners before marriage. How many women are suffering from this lie feed to them? The lie that men are week and worthless. How many men are suffering from this lie?

Now lets look at the Gay movement. How about the lie that it is okay to have same sex marriages. The gay movement are now forcing our children to learn these lies in our public schools. And if we speak out against it we are branned bigots. How many people are these lies going to hurt in the future.

Now Christainity is not perfect but Christ is. He taught us to love our neighbor. Now a true Christain will love everyone. Not just those who they choose (male or female). Christ taught us to have diginity for life from conception to natural death. This means that we believe that everyone has a right to life not just those who are female or gay. But all people equally. Digintiy for life means that we are not mere animals and have no control over our sexuality. We can actually wait until we are married and stay married to only our spouse. Not act like animals and have sex with everything that moves just because society wants us to believe we cannot control ourselves.

You keep saying that Christianity is sexist but I have only seen your own sexist actions. Being sexist is not only a favoring of the male sex but it is also a favoring of the female sex.

True Christainity loves and sees the true equiality of both sexes. Both males and females are wonderfully made in Gods image and He loves both. When and if we (male and female) learn to work together with the understanding that we each have something wonderful to contribute to the world, we would live in complete peace. But Satan doesn’t wont this and so he only laughs at us when he can put such a big divide among the sexes.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

I looked up some of the ECFS and these are some of their remarks. I didn’t write about every Church Father nor did I write every negative comment about women on this list because they are too numerous. Catholics claim that the aposles passed on oral teaching to the ECFS. So here is the proof of what God thinks of women because Catholics claim the ECFS took their teachings directly from the apostles.

Clement of Alexandria - Man is purer than woman. Women are weak, passive, castrated and immature.

Origen - He argued that God would never stoop to look on anything feminine,

Epiphanius- the female is easily seduced, weak an devoid of understanding.

John Chrysostom-Women are “whitewashed tombstones”. Inside they are full of filth.

Tertullian- Women are the personification of fundamentally evil sex and men are the innocent victims of femine wiles. Not only did he blame Eve for bringing death into the world he also blamed woman for the death of Christ.

Ambrose-Whoever does not believe is a woman…but the woman who believes is elevated to male completness and to a measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ…she is free of her physical sex.

Augustine-Women aren’t created in God’s image…only men. Man is the superior spirit. Woman is the inferior flesh.

 

[st_lucy]

I looked up some of the ECFS and these are some of their remarks. I didn’t write about every Church Father nor did I write every negative comment about women on this list because they are too numerous. Catholics claim that the aposles passed on oral teaching to the ECFS. So here is the proof of what God thinks of women because Catholics claim the ECFS took their teachings directly from the apostles.

Clement of Alexandria - Man is purer than woman. Women are weak, passive, castrated and immature.

Origen - He argued that God would never stoop to look on anything feminine,

Epiphanius- the female is easily seduced, weak an devoid of understanding.

John Chrysostom-Women are “whitewashed tombstones”. Inside they are full of filth.

Tertullian- Women are the personification of fundamentally evil sex and men are the innocent victims of femine wiles. Not only did he blame Eve for bringing death into the world he also blamed woman for the death of Christ.

Ambrose-Whoever does not believe is a woman…but the woman who believes is elevated to male completness and to a measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ…she is free of her physical sex.

Augustine-Women aren’t created in God’s image…only men. Man is the superior spirit. Woman is the inferior flesh.

I will have to ask you give the source you got these quote from so that we may look at the quotes in their full context.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

How wonderful for you to never do anything wrong.

I have never killed anyone
I believe everyone is equal
I don’t steal or try to purposely harm anyone.
I give to the poor, etc.
I could go on an on about all of my good qualities. My good qualities far outweigh any of my minor flaws. I do have sex outside of marriage but how is that hurting anyone like Christians claim? I don’t have any diseases and use birth control. Its about choice and I would never have a late term abortion. How is what I do sin when it is consensual?

look at Christians like Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart. They are the ones that harm people…not me. They lie and cheat on their wives.

Wicca is looking better and better to me.

 

[st_lucy]

I have never killed anyone
I believe everyone is equal
I don’t steal or try to purposely harm anyone.
I give to the poor, etc.
I could go on an on about all of my good qualities. My good qualities far outweigh any of my minor flaws. I do have sex outside of marriage but how is that hurting anyone like Christians claim? I don’t have any diseases and use birth control. Its about choice and I would never have a late term abortion. How is what I do sin when it is consensual?

look at Christians like Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart. They are the ones that harm people…not me. They lie and cheat on their wives.

Wicca is looking better and better to me.

So are you basing all of Christianity by Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart? That is like me basing all of Feminism by Margaret Sanger?

In Christianity one most measure their actions not by simply saying since I never killed someone I must be a good person. The fifth command states thou shall not kill. But it doesnt mean just in the literal sense. I can kill ones innocents by using profanity in front of someone. Or I can hurt someone by lying to them or simply being mean to someone. These are all ways of breaking the fifth commandment.

As a Christian I know that I am not just merely a human being but also a spiritual being and I am also measured by what I didn’t do (kill, steal, etc.), as well as what I did do (feed the hungry, forgive our enemy etc). this reminds me of today’s Gospel reading.

St Luke 6: 27-38

Jesus said to his disciples:
“To you who hear I say,
love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,
and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks of you,
and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
For if you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
and get back the same amount.
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
then your reward will be great
and you will be children of the Most High,
for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give, and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

This is what you measure a good Christian by. If they are not following than guess what they are human and subject to sin just as guess what you and me. Remember Jesus came here for sinners. He knows that we are not perfect, but He is. And His love is more than perfect, and so guess what His forgiveness is also perfect. This is why as a Catholic we believe that we are not to judge what others are doing because I am no better and if I sit on my high horse saying that i am better than Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart and yes even Margaret Sanger , than I am actually telling all that I am an even worse sinner than they are. I cannot judge unless I shall be judged in return.

Christians should be above all humble just like our Lord’s holy Mother was.

 

[Jennifer123]

I have never killed anyone
I believe everyone is equal
I don’t steal or try to purposely harm anyone.
I give to the poor, etc.
I could go on an on about all of my good qualities. My good qualities far outweigh any of my minor flaws.

You have these good qualities because you are adhering to the natural law that is out upon our hearts, BY GOD. These things you do, you don’t do them ny your own accord but by God who is within you, even if you don’t know it or acknowledge it. I’m glad you have all these good qualities, but being “good” isn’t enough ultimately. Good is subjective. It was once “good” in some cultures to sacrifice their virgins.

look at Christians like Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart. They are the ones that harm people…not me. They lie and cheat on their wives.

No one here would condone the actions of these men that caused such harm. But like everyone of us, we are weak and when we are removed from God, the source of holiness, we are much more prone to stumble and fall. We can’t ALL be judged by the actions of a few, or even of many. Even Jesus knew that someone would betray Him unto death. Jesus said there would be “weeds” among the “wheat”. Jut because some people won’t uphold His teachings doesn’t mean God isn’t who He says He is.

 

[mlchance]

I have never killed anyone
I believe everyone is equal
I don’t steal or try to purposely harm anyone.
I give to the poor, etc.
I could go on an on about all of my good qualities.

I’m sure you could, since you’re perfect. But how about actually sticking to the subject, which isn’t how wonderful you are. Here’s a start: Go back to those alleged bullets you’ve taken from reading the Church Fathers that you “looked up” and provide actual quotes and citations.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[RyanL]

I have never killed anyone
I believe everyone is equal
I don’t steal or try to purposely harm anyone.
I give to the poor, etc.
I could go on an on about all of my good qualities.

How are you doing with Pride? It’s the deadliest of sins, you know.

My good qualities far outweigh any of my minor flaws.

Says who? Would you trust an alcoholic to tell you whether or not he’s addicted? Then why would you trust yourself to tell you if you’re a sinner?

I do have sex outside of marriage but how is that hurting anyone like Christians claim?

Humans aren’t designed for one-night stands. It’s bad for us, and therefore you’re hurting yourself and someone else.

Been there. Done that. Know better.

It’s kinda’ like heroine for the psyche/soul.

I don’t have any diseases

Does the first include HPV? Have you been tested? It affects most (i.e., >50%) sexually active men and women - I’d truly be surprised if you escaped. The odds are against it.

…and use birth control.

That’s a sin, even by atheist standards. Just look at what Freud had to say:

“. . . it is a characteristic common to all the perversions that in them reproduction as an aim is put aside. This is actually the criterion by which we judge whether a sexual activity is perverse - if it departs from reproduction in its aims and pursues the attainment of gratification independently . . . Everything that . . . serves the pursuit of gratification alone is called by the unhonored title of ‘perversion’ and as such is despised.”

I’m sure Freud - an atheist - thought this because the Bible said so - .

Its about choice and I would never have a late term abortion. How is what I do sin when it is consensual?

1. Abortion is never consentual.
2. How is refusing to kill a human when he’s older any better than killing a human when he’s younger and more vulnerable?

look at Christians like Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart. They are the ones that harm people…not me. They lie and cheat on their wives.

Are you sure you want to get out the stones? I happen to know quite a few atheist glass houses…

Wicca is looking better and better to me.

Wicca is sexist.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[st_lucy]

I do have sex outside of marriage but how is that hurting anyone like Christians claim? I don’t have any diseases and use birth control. Its about choice and I would never have a late term abortion. How is what I do sin when it is consensual?

Having sex outside of marriage is hurting you and your partners. It hurts your partner because you are giving him or her a gift that was not theirs to begin with. It hurts you because you have dehumanized yourself, by making yourself a pleasure toy for another. The same is also true for your partners.

I would not be too cocky about the whole I have no diseases, you in all truth don’t really know this. Birth control does not prevent diseases.

Just because the mother consents to kill her child does not make the action consensual the child was not consented I am sure he would like to be asked first before he is torn limb from limb. No matter how much you make it sound like it is an okay act no one really can make abortion okay, it is murder, plan and simple.