Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[Lion_IRC]

Note that the people involved in this work are not asking for apologies. You are.

The pope is the one asking for an apology.

And there we go again with the private interpretations of Sacred Scripture and the blanket condemnation of those who disagree with you. Whoopee.

I beg your pardon!
Where is my “blanket condemnation” of those who disagree with me?
You mis-speak yourself.

Neither have I offered a “private interpretation” of scripture.

 

[RPRPsych]

The pope is the one asking for an apology.

He is asking us, as individuals, to apologize if we have been responsible for the sorts of things he alludes to. He is not asking for an apology himself. Read his words carefully.

I beg your pardon!
Where is my “blanket condemnation” of those who disagree with me?
You mis-speak yourself.

Neither have I offered a “private interpretation” of scripture.

So who’s this “Church in Laodicea” that you refuse to belong to, but that the rest of us seem to belong to?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

Meltzerboy, I write this in response to you and your spot on comment here. I know your posts and I believe we have had some very fine exchanges, but my question goes beyond you to the others who have posted in this dreadful thread.

Why are people here so OBSESSED with our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ? I am flummoxed beyond belief. There is such animosity, some outright and some camouflaged in Biblical/religious overtones. My guess is that a major percentage of posts on CAF are about homosexuality, everything from how people have sex (do we really want to go there?) to Biblical citations about sin, to figuring out how to change everyone to nice safe heterosexuals.

Is homosexuality that frightening to people? All I see is fear and anger exploding all over these pages and it is horrifying.

No wonder the LGBT community is fed up with the Church. If this is what is coming at them, I would run too. To go from great rejoicing over the Supreme Court decision to enable them to marry and create loving families, to Orlando, where once again they are fearful for their lives, I would say there is cause for worry. They are not yet safe. I get that now.

I understand that the RCC doesn’t have a way to understand theologically the role of homosexual love and marriage, and that is the church’s to work out. But they have to understand that this is legal in many places and these men and women are our neighbors and in our workplace and God willing, in church pews, (and in all truthfulness, at our altars.) There HAS to be a way to get past this horrid anger and obsession.

Ranting done. Thank you.

 

[tawny]

The pope emphasized the Church’s teaching as found in the Catechism:

If our actions are not in line with the Church’s teachings, and push people away from Christ, then yes, we owe them an apology. However, if we preach the truth with love and mercy, and that truth is something a person cannot accept, then I have done all I can do, and I have nothing to be sorry for.

The pope, yet once again, has proven himself to be Catholic!

Well stated.

 

[tawny]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

 

[Seamus_L]

The times in my life that I’ve heard people advocate violence against homosexuals, make jokes about AIDS, ridicule homosexuals, etc, it’s come from the unchurched. On the other hand, I’ve heard people who attend church who openly oppose the homosexual agenda, mislabeled as hatemongers, bigots, self righteous etc.

 

[OraLabora]

I am a sinner, we have that in common, the difference is I believe what the Bible teaches regarding homosexuality. My concern is that if I apologize for my belief that homosexuality is a sin, (in other words I am judging them based on the Bible’s teachings), that I would be saying the Bible is wrong.

Well that’s easy for you isn’t it, since you aren’t homosexual. Moreover you would not apologizing for your belief that homosexuality is a sin. That’s not what the Holy Father is saying. He is saying we should apologize for discrimination against gays, which the CCC also admonishes us to avoid but often fail to in either overt or subtle ways.

I am not gay but I’ve had enough experience of my personal sins to say “there but for the grace of God go I”, and work on my own sin while leaving gays to find their own path to God, and leaving the teaching, absolving, chastising, prodding along, etc. to their pastors, spiritual directors and confessors.

What I can do as an individual Christian Catholic however, is to contribute to making the Church a warm and welcoming place for them so that they can find at least the starting point of that path towards God, and the people qualified to lead them along it.

That means being kind, welcoming, listening, and charitable, and avoiding pounding my finger on the Bible or Catechism to “prove” that they’re headed to damnation. If I do something to turn them away from the Church, then I have as much to answer for on judgement day, and perhaps even more, than they do.

I’ll let them work out their sins, while I work on mine, but I will welcome them into the Church with open arms even if they are nowhere near where the Bible and Catechism says they should be striving towards. None of us are, actually.

So if you see a new person you suspect is gay in your parish, chat with him/her at coffee hour or after Mass, be welcoming, and don’t talk about their issue. Just chat about the weather, or life in general. If a gay person shows up at Church it is because they are seeking God, even if they are currently in a state of rebellion against Him. I too was in that state when I returned to the Church 19 years ago after a 22-year absence.

 

[RPRPsych]

Well that’s easy for you isn’t it, since you aren’t homosexual. Moreover you would not apologizing for your belief that homosexuality is a sin. That’s not what the Holy Father is saying. He is saying we should apologize for discrimination against gays, which the CCC also admonishes us to avoid but often fail to in either overt or subtle ways.

I am not gay but I’ve had enough experience of my personal sins to say “there but for the grace of God go I”, and work on my own sin while leaving gays to find their own path to God, and leaving the teaching, absolving, chastising, prodding along, etc. to their pastors, spiritual directors and confessors.

What I can do as an individual Christian Catholic however, is to contribute to making the Church a warm and welcoming place for them so that they can find at least the starting point of that path towards God, and the people qualified to lead them along it.

That means being kind, welcoming, listening, and charitable, and avoiding pounding my finger on the Bible or Catechism to “prove” that they’re headed to damnation. If I do something to turn them away from the Church, then I have as much to answer for on judgement day, and perhaps even more, than they do.

I’ll let them work out their sins, while I work on mine, but I will welcome them into the Church with open arms even if they are nowhere near where the Bible and Catechism says they should be striving towards. None of us are, actually.

So if you see a new person you suspect is gay in your parish, chat with him/her at coffee hour or after Mass, be welcoming, and don’t talk about their issue. Just chat about the weather, or life in general. If a gay person shows up at Church it is because they are seeking God, even if they are currently in a state of rebellion against Him. I too was in that state when I returned to the Church 19 years ago after a 22-year absence.

 

[Lion_IRC]

He is asking us, as individuals, to apologize if we have been responsible for the sorts of things he alludes to.

No, I saw nothing conditional insofar as only needing to apologize individually and only IF one personally feels like the need to. The admonishment was quite general and allowed no preferential option to say…oh well thank goodness the pope isn’t talking to me.

He is not asking for an apology himself. Read his words carefully.

Of course he isn’t asking people to apologize to him.

He is asking people (Christians) to collectively apologise to the entire LGBTQIXYZ community.

So who’s this “Church in Laodicea” that you refuse to belong to, but that the rest of us seem to belong to?

How is it that you accuse me of (wrongly) interpreting scripture yet you don’t know that very important part of scripture. I suggest you study it yourself.
…since you don’t like others explaining it to you.

By the way, I suggest you refrain from using terms like “the rest of us”. Because I don’t know to whom you are referring.

 

[Strydersroom]

I like this pope’s message of compassion, we need more of that today.
Compassion means to recognize that other people are in pain or difficulty, giving in to the basic desire to help them and then doing something to help them. And if you were in someway the cause of that pain, the first step would be to apologize.

There is no need to apologize to you because you are not in any pain. At most you are “offended” and probably not even that. You’re confusing being in pain, with being a pain.

When Christians call my true love toward my husband intrinsically disordered/an abomination/a mortal sin, that does cause me pain, and I am thankful the Pope called for an apology. Simply put, more and more people everyday realize a good friend or family member is gay, and that maybe, just maybe there’s not a darn thing wrong with that.

peace, Marc

 

[RPRPsych]

No, I saw nothing conditional insofar as only needing to apologize individually and only IF one personally feels like the need to. The admonishment was quite general and allowed no preferential option to say…oh well thank goodness the pope isn’t talking to me.

You clearly didn’t read the portion where he said “Christians, not the Church. The Church is holy, but we are sinners.” Chinese amnesia, anyone?

He is asking people (Christians) to collectively apologise to the entire LGBTQIXYZ community.

No, he isn’t.

Besides, that alphabet soup joke was funny the first time a better humorist, like Petaro, made it. It’s a dead horse now.

How is it that you accuse me of (wrongly) interpreting scripture yet you don’t know that very important part of scripture. I suggest you study it yourself.

You’re assuming I don’t know that particular part of Scripture? Funny. You know the old saying: when you assume, you make an…okay, the CAF filters will probably block that one.

…since you don’t like others explaining it to you.

On the contrary, I’ll stick to what Catholic Biblical commentaries have to say. You might want to check one out yourself:

haydock1859.tripod.com/id289.html

By the way, I suggest you refrain from using terms like “the rest of us”. Because I don’t know to whom you are referring.

Fine, then explain whom you are referring to when you use terms like “the Church of Laodicea” in a sense other than the ones elaborated by the Haydock Commentary above. Otherwise, this is just Sola Scriptura Catholic-bashing.

 

[JosieN]

I like this pope’s message of compassion, we need more of that today.
Compassion means to recognize that other people are in pain or difficulty, giving in to the basic desire to help them and then doing something to help them. And if you were in someway the cause of that pain, the first step would be to apologize.

There is no need to apologize to you because you are not in any pain. At most you are “offended” and probably not even that. You’re confusing being in pain, with being a pain.

When Christians call my true love toward my husband intrinsically disordered/an abomination/a mortal sin, that does cause me pain, and I am thankful the Pope called for an apology. Simply put, more and more people everyday realize a good friend or family member is gay, and that maybe, just maybe there’s not a darn thing wrong with that.

peace, Marc

It is our faith that teaches us that it is a mortal sin. I am sorry you are hurt by this, but if we apologize for the teachings of the church and what the Bible teaches on this matter, then we admit the teaching is wrong, and our faith will fall apart. Eventually it will have an effect on all the teachings of the church and we will split into two groups. Those who keep to the traditional church teachings and those who wish to make it all about love, acceptance, mercy etc, and ignore the part about sin.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR REMINDER

Charitably discuss the issues, not each other.

Please remember to not make derogatory remarks about each other or Catholic clergy.

 

[Holly3278]

I worry that some people will see this and think that the Catholic Church is changing its teachings on homosexuality. That is not true. What Pope Francis said is perfectly in line with the official teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality. I applaud him for saying what he did. Where there has been unjust discrimination against homosexuals, Catholics should apologize for it.

 

[JosieN]

I worry that some people will see this and think that the Catholic Church is changing its teachings on homosexuality. That is not true. What Pope Francis said is perfectly in line with the official teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality. I applaud him for saying what he did. Where there has been unjust discrimination against homosexuals, Catholics should apologize for it.

I am glad to hear the Church teaching has not changed. I assume then that calling it a sin is not an unjust discrimination. What would be an unjust discrimination made by Christians against homosexuals? I would like a clear picture of this issue, as everyone is saying different things and I am a bit confused. Can you give me an example of what an apology would look like and what we are apologizing for?

 

[Lion_IRC]

I worry that some people will see this and think that the Catholic Church is changing its teachings on homosexuality…

Why would they think that?

 

[Lion_IRC]

…Can you give me an example of what an apology would look like and what we are apologizing for?

Yes, I asked that same question earlier.
I would like to see someone here give an example.

There have been many posters here applauding the idea that Chrstians ought to apologize to the LGBTQ community for…stuff we have supposedly done. But strangely, nobody so far has lead by example.

Can’t someone pen their own personal mea culpa apology and present it here?

It would really help lift the thread.

 

[gilliam]

Here is a video of the Holy Father answering the question.

youtube.com/watch?v=NHZMTetctn8

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I worry that some people will see this and think that the Catholic Church is changing its teachings on homosexuality. That is not true. What Pope Francis said is perfectly in line with the official teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality. I applaud him for saying what he did. Where there has been unjust discrimination against homosexuals, Catholics should apologize for it.

I am trying to understand what was said and I think context is everything here. A clue is the stigma attached to divorced people not only in Argentina 80 years ago. I remember that Adlai Stevenson could not run for President of the US because of a divorce. That doesn’t mean a lot of other stuff wasn’t going on with politicians but this was a case in which finger pointing was socially condoned. One can go all the way back to the Scarlet Letters that adulteresses were supposed to wear in Puritan New England.

Single mothers were similarly spurned. I had a friend whose mother worked and her father was not living with them. I don’t think he was dead. Abandonment was even worse, however. I can just imagine in Argentina under the rule of self-righteous Generals that this sort of thing was rife. Being hated, used as a scapegoat, living under scrutiny, socially shamed, this is a heavy burden and should be apologized for, if not retroactively.

But things have changed in the meantime, 180 degrees! Topless feminists are not stopped from rampaging in front of a cathedral in Buenos Aires. Those in power are pushing the gay agenda and that says everything. They now have the money and clout just as they did in the decline of the Roman Empire. If you speak out against them you can join the lions in the Coliseum. An inverted situation exists today where the words of well meaning clergy will be twisted to support their agenda. This has become political, not individual anymore. Context, as I mentioned above, is everything.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Meltzerboy, I write this in response to you and your spot on comment here. I know your posts and I believe we have had some very fine exchanges, but my question goes beyond you to the others who have posted in this dreadful thread.

Why are people here so OBSESSED with our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ? I am flummoxed beyond belief. There is such animosity, some outright and some camouflaged in Biblical/religious overtones. My guess is that a major percentage of posts on CAF are about homosexuality, everything from how people have sex (do we really want to go there?) to Biblical citations about sin, to figuring out how to change everyone to nice safe heterosexuals.

Is homosexuality that frightening to people? All I see is fear and anger exploding all over these pages and it is horrifying.

No wonder the LGBT community is fed up with the Church. If this is what is coming at them, I would run too. To go from great rejoicing over the Supreme Court decision to enable them to marry and create loving families, to Orlando, where once again they are fearful for their lives, I would say there is cause for worry. They are not yet safe. I get that now.

**I understand that the RCC doesn’t have a way to understand theologically the role of homosexual love and marriage, and that is the church’s to work out. But they have to understand that this is legal in many places and these men and women are our neighbors and in our workplace and God willing, in church pews, (and in all truthfulness, at our altars.) There HAS to be a way to get past this horrid anger and obsession.

Ranting done. Thank you.**

Thank you. I find your interventions thoughtful. I also find them respectful. I also find them well-mannered. That is to be congratulated…especially in this thread.

Flummoxing is a very excellent English word.

I bolded the last part because it is what I wanted to address above all.

In my daily life…which is different in retirement because my pace is slower…whether I am going to a doctor’s office or a shop or restaurant or bank or whatever business I am conducting, I run into all sorts of people from a variety of backgrounds and religious practices, a variety of countries of origin and, assuredly, a variety of lifestyle choices. It’s much more diverse than it was a generation ago…let alone the era of my youth.

I interact with these various individuals, as a priest, as my fellow human beings. They may be Buddhists. They may be gay or lesbian. They may be Muslim. They may be on their third or fourth marriage. They may be in a relationship with no marriage at all.

You are exactly right. There are many such who do not govern themselves and their behaviour by the tenets of Catholic norm or behaviour. They are autonomous human beings and I respect their life choices and where their life journeys have carried them, to this stage of their life.

Catholic norm and behavior though has demands of me…that I embrace each and every person as a child of God. That I see the image and likeness of God that is to be found in them. That I treat them with dignity and respect.

There are many points in modern life where the Church has to consider thoughtfully how to respond to new realities and new expectations – like civil realities concerning how the State defines marriage. My society does not look like it did 100 years ago.

However I may be able to understand or not understand, as a theologian, the realities that are part and parcel of the lives and relationships and decisions of other people is honestly not that consequential outside of Catholicism, as far as non-Catholics are concerned (and also an ever growing number of Catholics).

There are those things which are societal realities and the society I live in and am a part of arrives at many variant conclusions. That does not impede my ability to interact – precisely as a member of my city, a citizen of my country, and a member of our super-national family of nations – with everyone else whom those categories also describe and even those whom they don’t describe.