Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[Don_Ruggero]

Well that’s easy for you isn’t it, since you aren’t homosexual. Moreover you would not apologizing for your belief that homosexuality is a sin. That’s not what the Holy Father is saying. He is saying we should apologize for discrimination against gays, which the CCC also admonishes us to avoid but often fail to in either overt or subtle ways.

I am not gay but I’ve had enough experience of my personal sins to say “there but for the grace of God go I”, and work on my own sin while leaving gays to find their own path to God, and leaving the teaching, absolving, chastising, prodding along, etc. to their pastors, spiritual directors and confessors.

What I can do as an individual Christian Catholic however, is to contribute to making the Church a warm and welcoming place for them so that they can find at least the starting point of that path towards God, and the people qualified to lead them along it.

That means being kind, welcoming, listening, and charitable, and avoiding pounding my finger on the Bible or Catechism to “prove” that they’re headed to damnation. If I do something to turn them away from the Church, then I have as much to answer for on judgement day, and perhaps even more, than they do.

I’ll let them work out their sins, while I work on mine, but I will welcome them into the Church with open arms even if they are nowhere near where the Bible and Catechism says they should be striving towards. None of us are, actually.

So if you see a new person you suspect is gay in your parish, chat with him/her at coffee hour or after Mass, be welcoming, and don’t talk about their issue. Just chat about the weather, or life in general. If a gay person shows up at Church it is because they are seeking God, even if they are currently in a state of rebellion against Him. I too was in that state when I returned to the Church 19 years ago after a 22-year absence.

:clapping:

 

[JosieN]

I am trying to understand what was said and I think context is everything here. A clue is the stigma attached to divorced people not only in Argentina 80 years ago. I remember that Adlai Stevenson could not run for President of the US because of a divorce. That doesn’t mean a lot of other stuff wasn’t going on with politicians but this was a case in which finger pointing was socially condoned. One can go all the way back to the Scarlet Letters that adulteresses were supposed to wear in Puritan New England.

Single mothers were similarly spurned. I had a friend whose mother worked and her father was not living with them. I don’t think he was dead. Abandonment was even worse, however. I can just imagine in Argentina under the rule of self-righteous Generals that this sort of thing was rife. Being hated, used as a scapegoat, living under scrutiny, socially shamed, this is a heavy burden and should be apologized for, if not retroactively.

But things have changed in the meantime, 180 degrees! Topless feminists are not stopped from rampaging in front of a cathedral in Buenos Aires. Those in power are pushing the gay agenda and that says everything. They now have the money and clout just as they did in the decline of the Roman Empire. If you speak out against them you can join the lions in the Coliseum. **An inverted situation exists today where the words of well meaning clergy will be twisted to support their agenda. **This has become political, not individual anymore. Context, as I mentioned above, is everything.

An inverted situation does exist today and I fear it will only get worse. I truly feel for the clergy who are trying to uphold the Catholic Christian faith and God’s laws while the world is twisting their words to suit their own agenda. I pray that Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Mother Mary will guide the good priests and clergy through this battle.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Can you give me an example of what an apology would look like and what we are apologizing for?

Pope Saint John Paul II gives an example in the following excerpts, to which I add bolding

HOMILY OF THE HOLY FATHER
DAY OF PARDON

12 March 2000

1. “We implore you, in Christ’s name: be reconciled to God! For our sake God made him who did not know sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:20-21) /…/
2. “He made him who did not know sin to be sin” (2 Cor 5:21). A few moments ago, in the second reading, we heard this surprising assertion made by the Apostle. What do these words mean? They seem, and in effect are, a paradox. How could God, who is holiness itself, “make” his Only-begotten Son, sent into the world, “to be sin”? /…/

Already in the Old Testament, the Book of Isaiah speaks of it with inspired foresight in the fourth song of the Servant of Yahweh: “We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; but the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all” (Is 53:6)

Although Christ, the Holy One, was absolutely sinless, he agreed to take our sins upon himself. He agreed in order to redeem us; he agreed to bear our sins to fufil the mission he had received from the Father, who - as the Evangelist John writes - “so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him … may have eternal life” (Jn 3:16).

1. Before Christ who, out of love, took our guilt upon himself, we are all invited to make a profound examination of conscience. One of the characteristic elements of the Great Jubilee is what I described as the “purification of memory” (Bull Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11). As the Successor of Peter, I asked that “in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters” (ibid.). Today, the First Sunday of Lent, seemed to me the right occasion for the Church, gathered spiritually round the Successor of Peter, to implore divine forgiveness for the sins of all believers /…/

This appeal has prompted a thorough and fruitful reflection, which led to the publication several days ago of a document of the International Theological Commission, entitled: “Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults of the Past”. /…/ It is very useful for correctly understanding and carrying out the authentic request for pardon, based on the objective responsibility which Christians share as members of the Mystical Body, and which spurs today’s faithful to recognize, along with their own sins, the sins of yesterday’s Christians, in the light of careful historical and theological discernment.

Indeed, “because of the bond which unites us to one another in the Mystical Body, all of us, though not personally responsible and without encroaching on the judgement of God who alone knows every heart, bear the burden of the errors and faults of those who have gone before us” (Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11). The recognition of past wrongs serves to reawaken our consciences to the compromises of the present /…/

1. Let us forgive and ask forgiveness! While we praise God who, in his merciful love, has produced in the Church a wonderful harvest of holiness, missionary zeal, total dedication to Christ and neighbour, **we cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken towards the followers of other religions

Let us confess, even more, our responsibilities as Christians for the evils of today. We must ask ourselves what our responsibilities are regarding atheism, religious indifference, secularism, ethical relativism, the violations of the right to life, disregard for the poor in many countries

We humbly ask forgiveness for the part which each of us has had in these evils by our own actions, thus helping to disfigure the face of the Church**

At the same time, as we confess our sins, let us forgive the sins committed by others against us. Countless times in the course of history Christians have suffered hardship, oppression and persecution because of their faith. Just as the victims of such abuses forgave them, so let us forgive as well. The Church today feels and has always felt obliged to purify her memory of those sad events from every feeling of rancour or revenge. In this way the Jubilee becomes for everyone a favourable opportunity for a profound conversion to the Gospel. The acceptance of God’s forgiveness leads to the commitment to forgive our brothers and sisters and to be reconciled with them /…/

1. “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son”. Here, in synthesis, is what the mystery of the world’s redemption means! We must fully understand the value of the great gift the Father has given us in Jesus. We must keep the eyes of our soul fixed on Christ - the Christ of Gethesmane, Christ scourged, crowned with thorns, carrying the cross and, finally, crucified. Christ took upon himself the burden of the sins of all people, the burden of our own sins, so that through his saving sacrifice we might be reconciled to God.

Today, Saul of Tarsus who became St Paul, stands before us as a witness: he had an extraordinary experience of the power of the Cross on the way to Damascus. The risen Christ revealed himself to him in all his dazzling power: ""Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’… "Who are you, Lord?’ … “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting’” (Acts 9:4-5) /…/

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/homilies/2000/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20000312_pardon.html

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I see no issue with the Pope asking people who have done wrong to repent and apologize for it. Bullying someone or discriminating and not treating someone with kindness and respect are wrong things, and if you have done them, you should apologize. This is not degree-level thinking.

However, apologizing for believing and teaching church teaching on the matter is not what the Pope was referring to, and those among the press who have got very excited about the Pope apologizing for saying homosexual activity is wrong have mistaken the matter. Which is hardly surprising, they hear what they want to hear.

 

[Little_Sheep]

If we look into our past, there are many times when groups have been marginalized by humans using the Church teachings as an excuse. St. John Paul II apologized to many of these groups (Jews, Native Americans…etc). Pope Francis is continuing this work by apologizing to gays, the poor, exploited women and children.

For those that are put off by this, think of it this way. Let’s say you are having an argument with someone and you know you are right about your position. The person you are arguing with is clearly wrong, but during the course of the argument, you go too far. You insult that person. You belittle that person. You show a self-righteous side. How many have us done this, even right here on this board? We are the Church. And now our Pope is apologizing for us going too far. Of course not just us, but so many who have not stated their position in a charitable way.

We talk about gay people too much here, in my opinion, and very uncharitable things are said. They know our views. We don’t need to ram it down their throats.

Being right does not make it okay to be mean.

:thumbs: Thank you.

 

[LittleFlower378]

No one is saying Catholics should not apologize if they have treated a person with same sex attraction poorly. What some are saying is that poor treatment of people with same sex attraction is on a greatly lower scale than the huge homosexual agenda that is out to destroy marriage, society, and the Church whether the homosexual agenda knows it or not.

The problem is that the question was a set up. They start quoting Cardinal Marx. The reporters know what they are doing. I think Pope Francis gave a “nice” answer but could have been a little more sly. With that said if they asked him a question on how the homosexual agenda has twisted the recent events to their own agenda, the Pope would have also given a solid answer on the evil of that agenda.

No one has been uncharitable to the pope or to people with same sex attraction but we may have been uncharitable to each other.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

With that said if they asked him a question on how the homosexual agenda has twisted the recent events to their own agenda, the Pope would have also given a solid answer on the evil of that agenda.
.

First of all, do you really think that the Pope would have spoken about the ‘evil’ of the ‘homosexual agenda?’ Has he EVER said anything derogatory about homosexual men and women? Not to my knowledge, but perhaps you have heard something.

Secondly, really and truly, there is no ‘homosexual agenda.’ It is pure fabrication and projection.

I would say that this is an example of what the Pope means when it’s time for apologies.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We should be apologizing to gays. But in the original Greek. Apologia.

 

[estesbob]

First of all, do you really think that the Pope would have spoken about the ‘evil’ of the ‘homosexual agenda?’ Has he EVER said anything derogatory about homosexual men and women? Not to my knowledge, but perhaps you have heard something.

Secondly, really and truly, there is no ‘homosexual agenda.’ It is pure fabrication and projection.

I would say that this is an example of what the Pope means when it’s time for apologies.

Homosexual marriage

In 2010, Pope Francis’s native Argentina was in the process of legalizing homosexual “marriage.” The country’s bishops took a very strong line against the measure. A statement made by then-Cardinal Bergoglio was particularly pointed.

According to British journalist Edward Pentin:

He made the statement in a letter addressed to each of the four monasteries in Argentina, asking the contemplatives to pray “fervently” that legislators be strengthened to do the right thing.

He wrote: “In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family. . . .

“At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother, and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

Cardinal Bergoglio continued: “Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

The cardinal also noted that “today the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it need this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will.”

catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-abortion-and-homosexual-marriage

 

[TCEL]

First of all, do you really think that the Pope would have spoken about the ‘evil’ of the ‘homosexual agenda?’ Has he EVER said anything derogatory about homosexual men and women? Not to my knowledge, but perhaps you have heard something.

Secondly, really and truly, there is no ‘homosexual agenda.’ It is pure fabrication and projection.

Well, he has actually spoken to the agenda of marriage redefinition.

“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God,” wrote Cardinal Bergoglio in a letter sent to the monasteries of Buenos Aires. “We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
…
The country now needs “the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, to place the light of truth in the middle of the darkness of error, to defend us against the enchantment of so many sophistries with which they seek to justify this bill,” he wrote.

 

[Strydersroom]

My only agenda is to live a life in peace and love with my husband and children, to leave the world a better place. Now, food for thought: should I be afraid of a “Christian/Catholic” agenda? I’ve been a lurker for some time and have been horrified at what I’ve read. Even now, there are active threads about punishment for sodomy, justification for the Orlando massacre, disease, evil…Let’s “blame the gays.” But we love them, we just hate the sin.

Again, news flash, I don’t believe I am sinning, yet I sense many people in this thread think I should not be married and should not be able to have adopted children. THIS is why the pope apologized, and I am grateful. However, I can see the backlash and classic blaming the victim is still alive and well. Cheers, Marc

 

[estesbob]

My only agenda is to live a life in peace and love with my husband and children, to leave the world a better place. Now, food for thought: should I be afraid of a “Christian/Catholic” agenda? I’ve been a lurker for some time and have been horrified at what I’ve read. Even now, there are active threads about punishment for sodomy, justification for the Orlando massacre, disease, evil…Let’s “blame the gays.” But we love them, we just hate the sin.

Again, news flash, I don’t believe I am sinning, yet I sense many people in this thread think I should not be married and should not be able to have adopted children. THIS is why the pope apologized, and I am grateful. However, I can see the backlash and classic blaming the victim is still alive and well. Cheers, Marc

Since the Pope does not believe in Same Sex marriage or that homosexuals should be allowed to adopt children I seriously doubt that is what he is asking us to apologize for

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Fair, Marc, I don’t have an issue with you being civilly married. And in the spirit of what the Pope has said, I apologize on behalf of my fellow believers for the nastiness which is often presented under the guise of religion. It is unacceptable.

I can’t pretend that I think you aren’t a sinner BUT I say that in full knowledge that I am a sinner too. That is kind of the point of the Faith. We are all sinners.

 

[Seamus_L]

When he was Cardinal of Buenos Aires, the Pope once compared the adoption of children by same sex couples to child abuse. Now I certainly wouldn’t consider that marginalizing homosexuals, but I’m sure many others in this enlightened age would.

 

[Strydersroom]

Fair, Marc, I don’t have an issue with you being civilly married. And in the spirit of what the Pope has said, I apologize on behalf of my fellow believers for the nastiness which is often presented under the guise of religion. It is unacceptable.

I can’t pretend that I think you aren’t a sinner BUT I say that in full knowledge that I am a sinner too. That is kind of the point of the Faith. We are all sinners.

It would appear that some are more sinners than others. I am by no means expecting or wanting a direct “apology” from anyone here, of course not. I realize that people can believe in anything they wish. But it truly breaks my heart when I read threads on here about families being torn apart by those who pretty much disown their own family members for the sole reason of them being gay. In fact there’s still an active thread really enforcing the idea of how completely wrong it would be to attend a gay child’s wedding. It’s your kid for pete’s sake! Your own flesh and blood. Now I would hope those parents would one day apologize to their children. I am lucky in that my parents, very strict lifelong Catholics in their 70s (my Mom used to post here actually) were in the front row of my wedding and could not have been more proud. I only had one Aunt who I invited not attend because of her religious views, but was very happy when she wrote me a heart felt letter apologizing a year later. You see, we are not wanting to change any religion’s/church’s core beliefs. It would appear that hearts and minds from within are already doing that. Which, like all change, is met with fear, hatred and ignorance in my humble opinion. Cheers.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I hear what you are saying. I was beaten up by my own mother when I came out, so I am not unaware of the difficulties. I don’t know what to say about those threads, I mostly ignore them, this is really the first ‘gay thread’ I have looked at in a while. I tend to see people wrestling with how to reconcile the differences between church teaching and the culture we live in. They don’t always do well, but most are trying to be faithful and kind.

 

[Strydersroom]

I hear what you are saying. I was beaten up by my own mother when I came out, so I am not unaware of the difficulties. I don’t know what to say about those threads, I mostly ignore them, this is really the first ‘gay thread’ I have looked at in a while. I tend to see people wrestling with how to reconcile the differences between church teaching and the culture we live in. They don’t always do well, but most are trying to be faithful and kind.

well said. Kindness really goes a very very long way.

 

[estesbob]

It would appear that some are more sinners than others. I am by no means expecting or wanting a direct “apology” from anyone here, of course not. I realize that people can believe in anything they wish. But it truly breaks my heart when I read threads on here about families being torn apart by those who pretty much disown their own family members for the sole reason of them being gay. In fact there’s still an active thread really enforcing the idea of how completely wrong it would be to attend a gay child’s wedding. It’s your kid for pete’s sake! Your own flesh and blood. Now I would hope those parents would one day apologize to their children. I am lucky in that my parents, very strict lifelong Catholics in their 70s (my Mom used to post here actually) were in the front row of my wedding and could not have been more proud. I only had one Aunt who I invited not attend because of her religious views, but was very happy when she wrote me a heart felt letter apologizing a year later. You see, we are not wanting to change any religion’s/church’s core beliefs. It would appear that hearts and minds from within are already doing that. Which, like all change, is met with fear, hatred and ignorance in my humble opinion. Cheers.

One can be accepting of Homosexual Family members while not affirming their behavior. My Daughter married her girlfriend last year and we love our Daughter-in-law very dearly and treat them no different than we do our other three daughters and their husbands. But they know we didn’t abandon our Faith because they decided to get married. We don’t approve of their relationship but then there are things in all my daughters lives i don’t approve of as i am sure there are things in my life they don’t approve of.

 

[exnihilo]

I am trying to understand what was said and I think context is everything here. A clue is the stigma attached to divorced people not only in Argentina 80 years ago. I remember that Adlai Stevenson could not run for President of the US because of a divorce. That doesn’t mean a lot of other stuff wasn’t going on with politicians but this was a case in which finger pointing was socially condoned. One can go all the way back to the Scarlet Letters that adulteresses were supposed to wear in Puritan New England.

Single mothers were similarly spurned. I had a friend whose mother worked and her father was not living with them. I don’t think he was dead. Abandonment was even worse, however. I can just imagine in Argentina under the rule of self-righteous Generals that this sort of thing was rife. Being hated, used as a scapegoat, living under scrutiny, socially shamed, this is a heavy burden and should be apologized for, if not retroactively.

But things have changed in the meantime, 180 degrees! Topless feminists are not stopped from rampaging in front of a cathedral in Buenos Aires. Those in power are pushing the gay agenda and that says everything. They now have the money and clout just as they did in the decline of the Roman Empire. If you speak out against them you can join the lions in the Coliseum. An inverted situation exists today where the words of well meaning clergy will be twisted to support their agenda. This has become political, not individual anymore. Context, as I mentioned above, is everything.

I have to say I completely understand why people are ostracized. I’ve lived in a society that doesn’t ostracize people. Or more accurately it doesn’t ostracize people for grave sins but for minor or for no sin at all. The ostracism seems necessary to maintain good order. Without that social pressure people seem to come unglued. I struggle to see how no social pressure is prudential.

Again, news flash, I don’t believe I am sinning, yet I sense many people in this thread think I should not be married and should not be able to have adopted children. THIS is why the pope apologized, and I am grateful. However, I can see the backlash and classic blaming the victim is still alive and well. Cheers, Marc

In other post you said basically you just want society to let you do as you want. That is inconsistent with adopting children. Adopting children is society’s business.

 

[estesbob]

I have to say I completely understand why people are ostracized. I’ve lived in a society that doesn’t ostracize people. Or more accurately it doesn’t ostracize people for grave sins but for minor or for no sin at all. The ostracism seems necessary to maintain good order. Without that social pressure people seem to come unglued. I struggle to see how no social pressure is prudential.

.

So should i ostracize my daughter because she married her girlfriend? Where does the Church tell us to ostracize anyone?