Christians that are into Judaism

[Anna_Scott]

I also am missing the point? I’m not understaing the Holocaust statement?

The CC has no doctine which persecutes the Jews. The basic misunderstanding by large is Christian. JP-II opens up dialogue by Catholics on a friendship basis, as equals. Benedict further defined where the Catholic Church stands in regard to Judaism with his statements during Holy Week. last week.

I believe most of us agree this is right. I can’t say what other Christian denominations will do. Some listen to the Pope, others have no regard for him. This fact does nothing to better serve Christianity or mankind.

Though the Catholic Church has continued to grow, problem is radical Christian thinking opposed to the CC has also sprouted up here and there. Other denominations use this thinking and apply and adopts bits and pieces as their own where they can.

For example the idea that Pope isn’t a valid Pope is an idea which evolved from the Jesuits in the late 70’s early 80’s when they had a issue with JP-II. Or TLM and Vatican I followers. Now that they are back in communion with Rome this theory is taken to yet another extreme by Protestant extreme sects who claim the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

Here you gain perspective how Christianity shoots itself in the foot. No different that with Judaism in ths regard. There is just some extreme thinking with these people which I refuse to buy into to.

No matter how you slice the bread, God has not abandoned Israel, nor have the better thinking Christians done anything but reach out to help them. If the history of Israel indicates nothing else it indicates God is interceeding on the Jews behalf still to date.

Man just hasn’t evolved far enough, especially in the area of non violence and peace and love and respect, to understand much of this as of yet. We are still insistant and killing and enslaving each other in the social/political realm and forcing our beliefs down each others throats.

Here’s the real question, why would anyone listen to Christianity when we can’t agree among ouselves. We look as foolish as the entire US looks in the political realm. Joke of the world we have become.

On can’t help but be concerned for Israel and Christianity. Or worry about the future of our children, grandchildren and theirs.

All interrelated issues, with Judaism, Islam, Catholics/Christians etc. If one is to believe the Kingdom of Jesus Christ must prevail on Earth for their to be world peace? We are failing miserably.

Sorry I’m very tired today

God Bless, Gary

Gary,
Well said. We have plenty of problems to sort out within Christendom. This is a time when we should all be reaching out to one another.

God definitely has not abandoned Israel. The Jewish people are still God’s chosen people.

Peace,
Anna

 

[chosen_people]

Okay, yes any racism or persecution is bad…

however,

so far, you have provided proof that the catholic church (and luther) have persecuted the Jews

check.

Now, some of the posters have made more specific claims of persecution.

so, the question remains
Did the church, as official, “nihil obistat” “ex cathedra” dogma- require, encourage, engage in persecution ?

or

did the church only unofficially persecute them- aka “few bad apples within the organization vs bad organization”

for the sake of brevity here are just a few papal bulls you may want to examine in order to answer your question: Innocent III 1205 Etsi non displiceat; Honorius III 1218 In generali concilio;Paul IV 1555 Cum nimis absurdam; Pius V 1569 Habraeorum gens; Gregory XIII 1584 Sancta mater ecclesia
SEE ALSO:
zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers4.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_blib.htm
zionism-israel.com/dic/Crusades_Jews.htm

 

[Anna_Scott]

go back to page 5, read through some of Chosen ppls claims as to the EXTENT of persecution. chosen ppl makes alot of specific arguments.

Yes the church has apologized for the actions of its members in the past. /agree

There are two types of catholic persecution- there would theoretically be

“what canon law authorizes”
“what some rogue bishop authorizes”

so my question was primarily aimed at chosen. I wanted to know which charge was he making against the church was he saying

“canon law authorized the persecution of the Jews by church members”

OR

“Some rogue bishop got fed up and then authorized (WITHOUT the blessing of canon law) acts of persecution against the Jews”

Now, I could apologize for both of them “Im sorry for the actions of catholics in the past” but IM trying to get more specific “are you sorry for what canon law allowed, or sorry for what a rogue bishop did, or both”

SHould chosen of said “canon law allowed for persection” or “ex cathedra rulings” allowed for persectution- I was asking for a SPECIFIC source- which SPECIFIC article of canon law, or which SPECIFIC papl bull or whatever- authorized it.

SempirVeritas,
All I can say is be careful what you ask for.

for the sake of brevity here are just a few papal bulls you may want to examine in order to answer your question: Innocent III 1205 Etsi non displiceat; Honorius III 1218 In generali concilio;Paul IV 1555 Cum nimis absurdam; Pius V 1569 Habraeorum gens; Gregory XIII 1584 Sancta mater ecclesia
SEE ALSO:
zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers4.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_blib.htm
zionism-israel.com/dic/Crusades_Jews.htm

 

[Anna_Scott]

(name removed by moderator)
Sadly, we are. Instead of building bridges of understanding, we’re rehashing the past and making some of the same mistakes as our Christian predecessors did.

Praying for peace,
Anna

 

[SempirVeritas]

for the sake of brevity here are just a few papal bulls you may want to examine in order to answer your question: Innocent III 1205 Etsi non displiceat; Honorius III 1218 In generali concilio;Paul IV 1555 Cum nimis absurdam; Pius V 1569 Habraeorum gens; Gregory XIII 1584 Sancta mater ecclesia
SEE ALSO:
zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers4.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_blib.htm
zionism-israel.com/dic/Crusades_Jews.htm

thanks.

 

[TheAtheist]

Well - if this thread is to be anywhere near productive, than perhaps its time we change the giant brushes for incredibly small ones.

Chosen: For brevity’s sake, could summarize what exactly do you wish to charge the Catholic Church of doing. I assume its something to the effect of institutionalized persecution correct at an official level correct?

If that is so, let us weigh out these Papal Bulls

Pro

                                         Honorius III

Sicut judaeis non debet esse licentia - Forbids forced baptism of Jews or molestation.

                                         Gregory IX

Etsi Judeorum - To prelates of France, urged prevention of physical violence against Jews.

                                        Innocent IV

Lachrymabilem Judaeorum -To German prelates; orders an end to persecution of Jews and declares that the blood libel accusation is false.

                                        Clement VI

Quamvis Perfidiam - Tries in vain to dispel the superstition that Jews are responsible for Black Death by poisoning the wells

                                       Urban V

Sicuti judaeis non debet - Forbidden to molest Jews or to force them to baptism.

                                       Sixtus V

Christiana pietas - Privileges granted to Jews by relief of former edicts. These were reversed. by Clemen VIII.

                                      Urban VIII

Cum sicut acceptimus - Obligation to feed poor Jews imprisoned for debt.

---

Con - Unfortuantely the Con List would be a little larger to put up in a single post. So let’s me grab the highlights…

Sicut judaeis non - “Just as no freedom may be granted to the Jews in their communities to exceed the limits legally set for them, so they should in no way suffer through a violation of their rights”

Etsi non displicea - Addressed to King of France. Accuses Jews of usury, blasphemy, arrogance, employing Christian slaves and murder. Urges king to put an end to the “evils.”

Si vera sunt - To kings and prelates of Spain and France - orders seizure of Talmud and other Jewish books and examination for blasphemy against Jesus. These books were regularly burned or censored.

Hebraeorum gens - Accuses Jews of many evils including magic. Orders expulsion of Jews from Church States except Rome and Ancona.

And perhaps the most infamous…

Beatus Andreas - Martyrdom of a child by Jews. A blood libel concerning the murder of the child Andreas Oxner or Anderl von Rinn (Andreas of Rinn ) by Jews that supposedly took place in 1462 in Rinn near Innsbruck. Confirms the blood libel as factual**. The Bull reviews the cases of ritual murder by Jews, which it explicitly upholds as a fact, **and establishes the beatifcation but not the canonization of Andreas of Rinn and Simon of Trent

---

Complicated isn’t it? Especially when a Pope releases a very anti-semitic Bull AND one that seems to contradict the previous one (Change his Mind? Political Expediency? )

There’s a kind of conundrum here really.

On the one hand, we can see that the Catholic Church isn’t quite Nazi Germany in the later years of WWII. There is a very strong anti-forced conversion sentiment followed by a demand for somewhat humane treatment.

On the other hand, its as plain as day that the Jewish people were systematically denied the same kind of rights and privileges accorded to Christians in those time periods. They were also the convenient scapegoat for a variety of issues.

And these two strands/tensions exist hand in hand.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

It looks like there is some honest searching by Catholics to discover why Christians are now, in growing numbers, studying the religion that Jesus actually practiced. The religion that He, Himself as God the Son, second person of the Godhead, gave to Moses as recorded in Exodus 34, Leviticus 23, not to mention the very beginning of the everlasting covenant which was begun at the gate of the Garden of Eden.

When people look at their Bible and ask themselves: who wrote the books of this Book? The entire Book was written by Jews. Jesus was looked at as a sort of break-away Jew.

Average Jews at that time were mostly Zionists. That is, they looked for God to put them in control of their own land, and be honored by the rest of the world as people above the other nations. But, that was never God’s plan. They were to share the written Torah, the laws, statutes and judgments, with the rest of mankind. They were to show love and respect, and share their wealth with those who would attach themselves to the Jewish community.

Most of the time, they didn’t live up to the covenantal laws. Those laws required them to show this love, even offerring, before going to war to stop the pagan baby killers (for sacrifices to Molech and other pagan deities), a chance for those nations of people to stop their evil murdering of children as sacrifices, before attacking such nations and driving their populations out, or annihilating them. They were ordered to do thus by none other than Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form.

People often think that Christ was, and is, a sorrowful, soft-spoken only, man who only went about healing, praying, and leading only by the most innocuous, peaceful means.
He was this way with those who were weak and humble and knew they were trapped by sin. But, with the powerful, Jesus was firm, wise, and perceptive, When He walked and prayed in Solomon’s porch at the Temple, he did much more than pray and weep. He also told of the near future of the destruction of the Temple and the end of the Temple rituals.

He gave the Torah laws, statutes and judgments to Moses, In Matthew 23, He told His followers, including His Apostles, to listen to the teachers when they sat in Moses’ bench in the synagogues, and to “do what they say.” This was because the teachers were under oath to only read from the Law He had given to Moses. The entire religion He gave to Moses was a teaching religion. The observing of the Sabbath and the new moons and yearly holy convocationis (feasts) was couched in historical and prophetic language.

The religion of the Jews is very important to Christianity if one only includes the written Torah. It includes the two great commandments, the Ten Commandments as given by God the Son to Moses, and the hundreds of other laws, plus His judgments which includes His feasts. That includes the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, and all of the other holy times each month (New Moon), and yearly feasts for purposes of learning and growth in faith…

 

[meltzerboy]

I agree. And what in the world has happened to this thread? I stepped away from it for a few days and now I see it has become a no-holds barred brawl! Wasn’t there later on a Golden Age in Spain when Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together in relative peace and harmony?

 

[swariffin]

I agree. And what in the world has happened to this thread? I stepped away from it for a few days and now I see it has become a no-holds barred brawl! Wasn’t there later on a Golden Age in Spain when Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together in relative peace and harmony?

As long as none of the abovementioned religion start judging other based in its very own standard, we can repeat the situation again. Also, as long as none of those abovementioned religion begin to feel that the country where one of the religion dwell, must rule based on such religious law.

 

[TheAtheist]

As long as none of the abovementioned religion start judging other based in its very own standard, we can repeat the situation again. Also, as long as none of those abovementioned religion begin to feel that the country where one of the religion dwell, must rule based on such religious law.

That’s kind of the question on the back of many peoples minds who happen to fall outside of the Abrahamic Faiths - whether they be like me or subscribe to another religion.

There has always been a kind of “totalizing” mechanism behind these religions whenever they acquire political power. The case of Judaism and the Jewish people’s historical relationship to this Church and Christianity as a whole kind of highlights the issue in bold.

ie: “If that’s how you treat your neighbor…”

 

[GaryTaylor]

isn’t it something how we have a dichotomy of those who would insist on dwelling on difference and history and continue to insert a wedge. Then we have those who would by default admit the mistakes, apologize, and chose to move forward in hopes we could stop the human slaughter.

Geez…its hard to figure out which is best for mankind.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

This my brother this is a constant drum role with many protestant, orthodox, and on and on. And it continues to fan the fire of hate. Its forgiveness instead of amnesty which is the correct path and then to look at what we can accomplish “together”. We simply must as individuals refuse to be lead down the path of historic blame which perpetuates wrath.

Anyway moving on…

If you would like a list of what the Catholic’s did wrong I will supply you with an accurate list. Nonetheless we have been making amends for hundreds of years now. Its very easy to find fault and flaws. Just read Luthers last work if you want to see human insanity at its best. You’ll be hard pressed to conclude this wasn’t a very sick man. And we can talk how Catholic’s reduced themselves to overseeing tortures no different then godless pagans. And that would also be true. And how the Jews forgot about the God of Israel etc.

But at some point we will need to push past the chaos to a better day. May God forgive and guide us.

God Bless, Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve run into this issue before. It seems that if there is no canon law saying, say, slavery, was lauded, then it really wasn’t a problem with Catholics?

SempirVeritas,
I find your insistence upon such a question to Chosenpeople highly offensive. The fact is that there have been periods of great persecution of the Jews by Christians, from both Catholics and Protestants.

To insist that any Jew produce evidence of Catholic canon law or ex cathedra rulings regarding persecution endured by the Jewish people is absolutely absurd. This kind of thinking only produces more divisions and does nothing to demonstrate the love of Christ.

Did Pope John Paul II ask for such a thing when he apologized to the Jewish people?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

This my brother this is a constant drum role with many protestant, orthodox, and on and on. And it continues to fan the fire of hate. Its forgiveness instead of amnesty which is the correct path and then to look at what we can accomplish “together”. We simply must as individuals refuse to be lead down the path of historic blame which perpetuates wrath. . . .

Gary,
You are once again the voice of reason and compassion.

I truly pray that the spirit of the words of Pope John Paul II will live on in regards to such regret for past sins committed against the Jews in the name of Christ, and that bridges of compassion can be built with our Jewish brethren.

Some of the posts on this thread have really bothered me. Is this our best witness as Christians? Has the love of Christ been demonstrated on this thread? Sadly, it’s been more of “I’m right-you’re-wrong” and “prove-to-me-you-were-“officially”-persecuted-by-Christians.”

I think we really have no clue how nearly 2000 years of persecution affects the thinking of the Jewish people today. I remember talking with my dear Jewish friends (who both passed away in recent months) about the movie “The Passion of Christ.” They said when the movie came out, they were afraid it would stir up a new wave of antisemitism. I told them the true Christian belief is that it is the sin of humanity that put Christ on the cross. They said they had never heard that before. They thought all Christians blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ. They were retired and had many Christians try to convert them throughout their lives. They told me about some of their experiences. Most were a sad testament to the Gospel of our Lord.

I think, as Christians, we must humble ourselves and understand that, as the N.T. tells us, salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22) and we are not to be prideful in our acceptance of Christ.

Romans 11:
25** Lest you be wise in your own sight**, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27"and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Ezekiel Chapter 37 gives a beautiful account of the salvation of the whole house of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:
11Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.”

2 Chronicles 9:
8Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delighted in you and set you on his throne as king for the LORD your God! Because your God loved Israel and would establish them forever, he has made you king over them, that you may execute justice and righteousness."

Let us pray for the peace of Jerusalem according to Psalm 122.

Psalm 122:
6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!
"May they be secure who love you!
7Peace be within your walls
and security within your towers!"
8For my brothers and companions’ sake
I will say, “Peace be within you!”
9For the sake of the house of the LORD our God,
I will seek your good.

Deuteronomy 33:
29Happy are you, O Israel! Who is like you,
a people saved by the LORD,
the shield of your help,
and the sword of your triumph!. . . .

Isaiah 45:
17But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Indeed, Israel is saved by the Lord with everlasting salvation–at least that is what Holy Scripture says.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’ve run into this issue before. It seems that if there is no canon law saying, say, slavery, was lauded, then it really wasn’t a problem with Catholics?

Gurney,
Check out the links chosen people posted–not that I really want this stirred up again. This thread is way off topic. I think most of Christendom carries some past guilt in the persecution of the Jews. Marten Luther was even quoted in Hitler’s Mein Kampf justifying his atrocities against the Jews (Link: humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm.)

Anna

for the sake of brevity here are just a few papal bulls you may want to examine in order to answer your question: Innocent III 1205 Etsi non displiceat; Honorius III 1218 In generali concilio;Paul IV 1555 Cum nimis absurdam; Pius V 1569 Habraeorum gens; Gregory XIII 1584 Sancta mater ecclesia
SEE ALSO:
zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers4.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
religioustolerance.org/jud_blib.htm
zionism-israel.com/dic/Crusades_Jews.htm

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

One of the greatest things about JP2 as pope was that he grew up around Jews in Poland, saw their plight, was sympathetic, and realized the role Christians had played in persecution of Jews for centuries. He did something about it and apologized on behalf of the CC…

Gurney,
Check out the links chosen people posted–not that I really want this stirred up again. This thread is way off topic. I think most of Christendom carries some past guilt in the persecution of the Jews. Marten Luther was even quoted in Hitler’s Mein Kampf justifying his atrocities against the Jews (Link: humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm.)

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

One of the greatest things about JP2 as pope was that he grew up around Jews in Poland, saw their plight, was sympathetic, and realized the role Christians had played in persecution of Jews for centuries. He did something about it and apologized on behalf of the CC…

That is one of the many reasons I hold Pope John Paul II in such high regard. I wish more Protestant leaders would follow his example.

I did quote Pope John Paul II in previous posts on this thread.

Peace,
Anna

 

[franny50]

I know of some protestants who are very much into jewish law and the ot.As far as I know,seventh day adventists believe the catholic church changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday,because of the resurrection,otherwise we would be sharing the jewish sabbath.Not quite sure if this information is historically accurate though.I also know there are messianic jews who are christian yet observe the jewish sabbath.

 

[swariffin]

That’s kind of the question on the back of many peoples minds who happen to fall outside of the Abrahamic Faiths - whether they be like me or subscribe to another religion.

There has always been a kind of “totalizing” mechanism behind these religions whenever they acquire political power. The case of Judaism and the Jewish people’s historical relationship to this Church and Christianity as a whole kind of highlights the issue in bold.

ie: “If that’s how you treat your neighbor…”

That is correct. That is why we should see Jesus’ word seriously “Give Caesar what is belong to Caesar, and give God what is belong to God”. Surely, Jesus has taught us the separation of God and State.

 

[Disinherited]

People, thank you so much but, well, thanks to the Blessed Virign again, She through Her inspirations has directed me to this article below. It is the most damning and the most honest, impartial and poignant read I ever rea din regards the Spanish Inquisition. It truly shows that the Church shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of others. There bad and evil Churchmen but there were also good ones like the Popes and alot of genuinely, non-fanatical Bishops and Priests. The ebst thing? It comes form a Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=148&letter=I This is essential reading to Catholics that they may see that the Church isn’t evil, and to the Jews that they may see that the Church isn’t evil or anti-semitic. The Church wasn’t an anti-semitic organization but it wanted to protect Her faith. It was the angry idiots who were guilty of all the mistreatment of the Jews.