Christie vetoes New Jersey gay marriage bill

[rlg94086]

I think the main moral problem for many religiously-minded people today is not even so much gay marriage, but the slippery-slope ramifications of where this may lead: polygamy, man-animal, or incestuous marriages. Then, would you also forbid mixed-religious marriages, non-procreative marriages, vast age-difference marriages, common-law marriages, etc.? Wouldn’t it be better if we could learn to mind our own business and stay out of other people’s bedrooms, provided they are not abusing each other?

I’m confused. So, you are okay with polygamy and incestuous marriages, as long as they are not abusing each other?

 

[meltzerboy]

The law has always discriminated against people based on their behavior.

Generally, did BEHAVIOR have to do with being denied housing or not being hired or being fired from one’s job, or was this discrimination the result of other reasons, such as being Black, gay, Jewish, Latino, Italian, Irish, or a woman?

 

[estesbob]

Generally, did BEHAVIOR have to do with being denied housing or not being hired or being fired from one’s job, or was this discrimination the result of other reasons, such as being Black, gay, Jewish, Latino, Italian, Irish, or a woman?

Again you are trying to equate behavior with race, creed , gender & ethnicity. There is no equivency

 

[meltzerboy]

Jewish teaching does not support same-sex marriage. As you wrote, “procreation is secondary, albeit still very important.” Many Jewish communities support civil same-sex marriage but not “kiddushin” which is only heterosexual marriage. Finally, even if they did, Judaism is more of an ethnic and cultural affiliation, than a religion, for many who call themselves Jews. Otherwise, the term “Jewish atheist” would have no meaning.

There is a vast range within Judaism, from the most observant Jew to the least observant. The person who calls themselves a Jewish atheist probably has at least a spark of belief in the moral teachings of Judaism and puts them into practice, as well as a sense of cultural affiliation with the history of the Jewish people. According to the Law, if one is born of a Jewish mother, one is a Jew: that cannot change except if one converts to another religion which holds different beliefs regarding the nature of G-d. Even then, the individual might regard themselves as Jewish, such as Hebrew Catholics or Messianic Jews. An atheist is technically still considered a Jew, whether or not they call themselves such. But to say that most or many Jews do not believe in G-d is incorrect: they might not believe or even know the Law, but they still believe in G-d. Certain Reform Rabbis will marry same-sex couples, based on their interpretation of Jewish teaching. Orthodox and Conservative Rabbis will not.

 

[LovePatience]

How are they unrelated when one looks at discrimination in the workplace and housing that was directed against both Blacks and gays during the era of the Civil Rights Movement? And what about the periodic police raids of gay bars for no apparent reason, which triggered the Stonewall revolt in NYC?

There is some relationship. For example, the ACLU spearheaded Loving vs. Virginia and helped the NAACP with Brown vs. Board of Education. It also strongly supports gay marriage. But the Catholic Church supported interracial marriage in Perez vs. Sharp in 1948, striking down the California law against interracial marriage under grounds of religious freedom since the Catholic Church has no law against interracial marriage.

In terms of both being groups marginalized and hated in America, there is a similarity. That’s about it; interracial marriage wasn’t even illegal in Britain nor was it illegal in most other countries around the world. And one reason why the Catholic Church is important - the word Catholic means universal - and we should make laws based on universal laws/principles and not local attitudes.

A real difference is that gender is an important social delineation that should be preserved while race is not. The Civil Rights movement followed the Holocaust. After the Holocaust, the ideal of racial eugenics fell into disfavor because of the damage caused. There is no distinguishing line for “race.” Scientists think that all originated from Africa. During the height of the Holocaust, the Nuremburg Laws only considered someone Jewish if at least three or four grandparents were Jewish. In America, unique among every other country in the world, blacks had a “one drop rule” so some blacks who were not noticeably black moved to other places and didn’t tell anyone else they were black, and “passed” and were treated as white. What race exactly are Hispanics since almost all are mixed race?

On the other hand, gender is a clear differentiation with only a few people being intersex, and this generally being recognized as a disability that should not happen. If you look at the trends in women’s happiness over the last 35 years, it has declined. slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/20/study_on_happiness_by_national_bureau_of_economics_finds_women_are_unhappier_than_ever.html

Same sex works in disharmony; there is not only an inability to make two one literally and create children as a product of that love, there is also lack of sexual complementarity. Atheist Richard Dawkins writes in his book: The Selfish Gene: “it is still possible that human males in general have a tendency towards promiscuity, and females a tendency towards monogamy, as we would predict on evolutionary grounds.” Lesbians have lower rates of STDs than straight women. On the other hand, gay men are 60% of new AIDS cases in the United States despite being less than 3% of the population. It looks like lack of sexual complementarity in these relationships is the driving factor for STDs, not discrimination. One reason is the aberrancy of a monogamous nature and long-term fidelity in homosexual men’s relationships. Another is because anal sex usually causes bleeding, which transmits STDs. There are also deeper issues of sexual complementarity that are psychological in nature; women are fundamentally different from men. So gay marriage is not equal to heterosexual marriage for intrinsic reasons, and does not deserve on its own merits to be treated as equal. There are intrinsic differences between heterosexual unions and homosexual unions that should be recognized and preserved by law. Women and men are not completely interchangeable in marriage.

 

[LovePatience]

Generally, did BEHAVIOR have to do with being denied housing or not being hired or being fired from one’s job, or was this discrimination the result of other reasons, such as being Black, gay, Jewish, Latino, Italian, Irish, or a woman?

Gay - do you mean having sexual attraction or do you mean engaging in the behavior of same gender sex? If you mean discrimination based on just having sexual attraction and nothing else, that’s wrong. If you mean sexual behavior based differences (not all gay people are sexually active), that’s different.

 

[meltzerboy]

Gay - do you mean having sexual attraction or do you mean engaging in the behavior of same gender sex? If you mean discrimination based on just having sexual attraction and nothing else, that’s wrong. If you mean sexual behavior based differences (not all gay people are sexually active), that’s different.

I mean gay as in having same-sex attraction and also being perceived as gay (perhaps not even being gay) by an employer, for example, and therefore not being hired or fired from one’s job. I don’t mean flaunting or flamboyant gay behavior, not typical of most gays anyway. Same-sex behavior, for most jobs, should also be irrelevant, unless sexual activity is practiced in public!

 

[Dale_M]

Again you are trying to equate behavior with race, creed , gender & ethnicity. There is no equivency

I think the best comparison between discrimination based on sexual orientation would be discrimination based upon religion. Both sexual orientation and religious affiliation involve voluntary behaviors. Membership in such categories is not usually evident to strangers or casual acquaintances. Both involve, to some degree, personal and group identity. And both can suffer from negative stereotyping and unjust discrimination.

 

[LovePatience]

I mean gay as in having same-sex attraction and also being perceived as gay (perhaps not even being gay) by an employer, for example, and therefore not being hired or fired from one’s job. I don’t mean flaunting or flamboyant gay behavior, not typical of most gays anyway. Same-sex behavior, for most jobs, should also be irrelevant, unless sexual activity is practiced in public!

What does this have to do with supporting same-sex marriage?

 

[LovePatience]

I think the best comparison between discrimination based on sexual orientation would be discrimination based upon religion. Both sexual orientation and religious affiliation involve voluntary behaviors. Membership in such categories is not usually evident to strangers or casual acquaintances. Both involve, to some degree, personal and group identity. And both can suffer from negative stereotyping and unjust discrimination.

Some (not all) same sex attraction is caused by childhood sexual abuse.

 

[ishii]

NY Daily News:

Smart man. And a smart politician - he lowered the flags to half-staff for Whitney Houston’s funeral.

Ishii

 

[LovePatience]

Wouldn’t it be better if we could learn to mind our own business and stay out of other people’s bedrooms, provided they are not abusing each other?

Its sad when society tells people whose gender identity has changed due to molestation that this is just a natural and healthy difference. Walt Hoyer has written a book “Trading My Sorrows” that shows how the medical community helped convince him that he was transgendered, but later he retransitioned back to his birth gender and had a happy marriage. He was molested by his uncle as a child, and no one really paid attention to that in exploring his gender identity. But even though he now has a happy marriage, its too late to reverse the effects of transgender surgery.

In the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal, STDs haven’t reduced and gay suicides are still high. It is not loving to advocate supporting gay marriage when you believe a person may suffer in the afterlife for their decision or, if you don’t believe that, you believe that the effects of gay marriage will weaken the meaning marriage for everyone, or if you believe that for a gay person, not understanding that sexual identity issues are possibly a changeable disorder will have the potential to weaken their quality of life, i.e. Walt Hoyer. Love is necessary; tolerance is good only in comparison to hate.

 

[Dale_M]

Its sad when society tells people whose gender identity has changed due to molestation that this is just a natural and healthy difference. Walt Hoyer has written a book “Trading My Sorrows” that shows how the medical community helped convince him that he was transgendered, but later he retransitioned back to his birth gender and had a happy marriage

Being transsexual or probably even transgender (which is a vague concept) has nothing to do with being gay.

As for Walt Hoyer, key parts of his tale have changed over the years. Certainly he is a troubled person. I am not sure he is representative of many persons who are transsexual (or transgender, depending upon how that term is defined.)

And I don’t see how he is relevant to this discussion.

 

[LovePatience]

Being transsexual or even transgender (which is a vague concept) has nothing to do with being gay.

As for Walt Hoyer, key parts of his tale have changed over the years. Certainly he is a troubled person. I am not sure he is representative of many persons who are transsexual (or transgender, depending upon how that term is defined.)

We don’t know that, do we since we don’t understand sexual identity very much. Chaz Bono (who was also molested) first came out as lesbian; later, she changed her mind and declared herself transgender. Why are the words LGBT grouped together if they two aren’t related?

Well, if he’s not representative of people who declare themselves transsexual, why did the top psychiatrists of America diagnose him with a severe case of being transgender and prescribe to him that his only cure would be living as a woman? Most people who are transgender are very troubled.

 

[Dale_M]

Why are the words LGBT grouped together if they two aren’t related?

Its a political coalition, and coalitions often have disparate members. The countries of Greece and Turkey are not known for warm relations. Yet they both belong to NATO.

Well, if he’s not representative of people who declare themselves transsexual, why did the top psychiatrists of America diagnose him with a severe case of being transgender and prescribe to him that his only cure would be living as a woman? Most people who are transgender are very troubled.

I welcome discussing this with you, but perhaps we should do so in a different thread.

 

[LovePatience]

Its a political coalition, and coalitions often have disparate members. The countries of Greece and Turkey are not known for warm relations. Yet they both belong to NATO.

I welcome discussing this with you, but perhaps we should do so in a different thread.

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning as to why transgender has nothing to do with being gay? Others have compared race, religion, incest, and polygamy to being gay in this thread, and there has not been a suggestion that the comparisons were outside of the scope of the discussion. However, a famous gay marriage advocate was confused as to whether she was transgender or gay which suggests that of the five, this is the closest comparison.

Sexual abuse is a contributing factor to confused sexual orientation for some. Bowen found that among 20 female to male transsexuals, 50% were sexually abused as children. 71% had been beaten as children. People who identify as gay also have much larger rates of childhood sexual abuse than those who identify as hetersexuals. In fact, “Restoring Sexual Identity: Hope for Women Who Suffer from Same-Sex attraction” shows a correlation between “feeling different”, “first same gender attraction”, and “first sexually molested.” Ignoring this link or marginalizing this link does no service to those who have sexual identity issues and are unaware of the connection; nor does it help public policy.

Chaz Bono as a gay marriage advocate.

In April 1995, Bono came out as lesbian in an interview with The Advocate, a national gay and lesbian magazine.[11] The 1998 book Family Outing detailed how Bono’s coming out “catapulted me into a political role that has transformed my life, providing me with affirmation as a lesbian, as a woman, and as an individual.”[12] In the same book, Bono reported that Cher, who was both a gay icon and ally to LGBT communities, was quite uncomfortable with the news at first, and “went ballistic”[13] before coming to terms with it: “By August 1996, one year after I came out publicly, my mother had progressed so far that she agreed to ‘come out’ herself on the cover of The Advocate as the proud mother of a lesbian daughter.”[12] Cher has since become an outspoken LGBT rights activist.

Bono’s paternal relationship became strained after Sonny became a Republican Congressman from California. The differences in their political views separated them, and the two had not spoken for more than a year at the time of Sonny’s fatal skiing accident in January 1998.[11]

Bono worked as a writer at large for The Advocate.[4] As a social activist, Bono became a spokesperson for the Human Rights Campaign, promoted National Coming Out Day, campaigned for the reelection of Bill Clinton for US President, campaigned against the Defense of Marriage Act, and served as Entertainment Media Director for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD).[4] Bono was a team captain for Celebrity Fit Club 3 (2006) and was supported by girlfriend Jennifer Elia, who orchestrated exercise and training sessions.[5][14]

 

[meltzerboy]

Its sad when society tells people whose gender identity has changed due to molestation that this is just a natural and healthy difference. Walt Hoyer has written a book “Trading My Sorrows” that shows how the medical community helped convince him that he was transgendered, but later he retransitioned back to his birth gender and had a happy marriage. He was molested by his uncle as a child, and no one really paid attention to that in exploring his gender identity. But even though he now has a happy marriage, its too late to reverse the effects of transgender surgery.

In the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal, STDs haven’t reduced and gay suicides are still high. It is not loving to advocate supporting gay marriage when you believe a person may suffer in the afterlife for their decision or, if you don’t believe that, you believe that the effects of gay marriage will weaken the meaning marriage for everyone, or if you believe that for a gay person, not understanding that sexual identity issues are possibly a changeable disorder will have the potential to weaken their quality of life, i.e. Walt Hoyer. Love is necessary; tolerance is good only in comparison to hate.

We’re not talking about gender identity disorder, and most gay people did not become gay due to molestation. That’s an old myth, the same as lesbians hate men even though they want to be like men. In the case of most lesbians, neither is true.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m confused. So, you are okay with polygamy and incestuous marriages, as long as they are not abusing each other?

I think incestuous marriages, especially if they are first-order incest, pose far greater threats to the family than does gay marriage. Incest has been a moral taboo for so long in so many cultures, apart from medical reasons, that it’s difficult for anyone to state they can tolerate it, let alone be in favor of it. I suppose one may say the same for gay marriage. However, what about second or third cousins marrying? The medical risks to children are far less in such cases although it still carries moral, if not legal, sanctions. I’m not sure about polygamy; but I think it can also be tolerated even if not accepted on a moral basis. Polygamy would also redefine the family more than gay marriage, in my view. I don’t think it’s a necessary next step after gay marriage, but admittedly the door is opened wider.

 

[LovePatience]

We’re not talking about gender identity disorder, and most gay people did not become gay due to molestation. That’s an old myth, the same as lesbians hate men even though they want to be like men. In the case of most lesbians, neither is true.

Its not a myth. Can you provide any evidence that it is? If you can’t, its presumptuous of you to say that it is as well as hurtful.

Never said that most people became gay due to molestation; I said some have, and it is a disservice to them for people to treat their homosexual identity as healthy and natural without questioning if that was the reason. If you question this, then read Dawn Stefanowicz’s book on Out from Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. She herself experienced sexual confusion due to the way that she grew up.

I came to deeply care for, love and compassionately understand my dad. He shared his life regrets with me. Unfortunately, my father, as a child, was sexually and physically abused by older males. Due to this, he lived with depression, control issues, anger outbursts, suicidal tendencies, and sexual compulsions. He tried to fulfill his legitimate needs for his father’s affirmation, affection and attention with transient and promiscuous relationships. He and his partners were exposed to various contagious STD’s as they traveled across North America. My father’s (ex)partners, whom I had deep caring feelings for and associated with, had drastically shortened lives due to suicide, contracting HIV or Aids. Sadly, my father died of AIDS in 1991.

Are my childhood experiences unique? According to a growing number of personal testimonies, experts, and organizations, there is mounting evidence of strong commonalities to my personal experiences. Not only do children do best with both a mother and a father in a lifelong marriage bond, children need responsible monogamous parents who have no extramarital sexual partners. Parental promiscuity, abuse and divorce are not good for children. If same-sex marriage is legalized, a person, couple or group who practice any form of sexual behavior would eventually be able to obtain children through previous heterosexual relationships, new reproductive technologies, and adoption due to the undefined term sexual orientation. This would force all public and private adoption agencies to hand over children into experimental relationships or risk charges of discrimination.

Could you explain why you would compare same sex orientation to race but discount the comparison with transgender identity? You have some predetermined biases where you feel comfortable making racial comparisons despite the fact that you are told they are racist and offensive but are not comfortable with a comparison of two states that are not exactly the same, but are surely much closer than race and sexual identity.

 

[LovePatience]

I think incestuous marriages, especially if they are first-order incest, pose far greater threats to the family than does gay marriage. Incest has been a moral taboo for so long in so many cultures, apart from medical reasons, that it’s difficult for anyone to state they can tolerate it, let alone be in favor of it. I suppose one may say the same for gay marriage. However, what about second or third cousins marrying? The medical risks to children are far less in such cases although it still carries moral, if not legal, sanctions. I’m not sure about polygamy; but I think it can also be tolerated even if not accepted on a moral basis. Polygamy would also redefine the family more than gay marriage, in my view. I don’t think it’s a necessary next step after gay marriage, but admittedly the door is opened wider.

Incest is a moral taboo for conversation but its not an actual taboo in terms of occurrence. It is much more prevalent than most people think it is. The reason its prevalence seems so low is because most people do not want to become known as an incest survivor, nor do they want to suffer the repercussions of having their family secrets exposed. This combines with the fact that most people who aren’t victims or perpetrators don’t want to discuss child sexual abuse.

        Although child sexual abuse is reported almost 90,000 times a year, the numbers of unreported abuse is far greater because the children are afraid to tell anyone what has happened, and the legal procedure for validating an episode is difficult (American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 2004).
        It is estimated that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will have experienced an episode of sexual abuse while younger than 18 years.  The numbers of boys affected may be falsely low because of reporting techniques (Botash, Ann, MD, Pediatric Annual, May, 1997).
        Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were under 6. Forty percent of the offenders who victimized children under age 6 were juveniles (under the age of 18). (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2000).
        Most children are abused by someone they know and trust, although boys are more likely than girls to be abused outside of the family. A study in three states found 96% of reported rape survivors under age 12 knew the attacker. Four percent of the offenders were strangers, **20 percent were fathers, 16 percent were relatives ** and 50% were acquaintances or friends (Advocates for Youth, 1995)..[33][ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32315#4 ](http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32315#4 )**National Center for Victims of Crime**