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fatherx
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Sorry about that, I guess I was addressing the folks who were already in the thread.I am confused
I thought that this is what you were asserting
If this is not the Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah, specifically, what other heathen tradition takes a tree from the forest at the time of winter solstice, and decorates it? I am not aware of one. Now we have someone who claims it’s been a Christian tradition all along. Waiting for specific, credible evidence of that. (I’m being genuine, I’d be interested in researching it)
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Mousey
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But that question assumes that it was a Christmas tree. What it refers to is an idol note that it mentions it looks like a scarecrow. Trees do not look like a scarecrows unless they are carved to look like one. Then of course it would no longer be a Christmas Tree but an idol which is what is being refered to. No one worships a Christmas Tree so it is not an idol.
m-w.com/dictionary/scarecrow
The tree should remind us of the cross and everlasting life. Jesus would want us to do that.
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LilyM
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Thank you for bringing some sense back into the thread mousey. Never yet seen a Christmas tree that looks like a scarecrow, fatherx. Can you show me any pictures of any that resemble a scarecrow? And how do you know idols weren’t carved from wood at winter solstice? I presume they were.
I know one pagan tradition in particular is the ‘wicker man’ (flexible branches woven into a huge human effigy and set alight). The Jeremiah passage fits that custom probably better than a Christmas tree, since a wicker man obviously WOULD look like a scarecrow. I don’t know whether this was reserved for any particular time of year.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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++ STM you’re assuming what needs to be shown; that Christmas trees are objectionable.From Gottle of Geer
**Excellent - & one can easily put up both. **
Hmmm… put up a manger and a Christmas tree?
From Ezekiel 22:26
…they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,…
Kinda like pouring raw sewage over your ice cream, yummy.
Why are they not compatible ? This is the kind of issue associated with Fundamentalist Protestants, or JWs.
I think you’re worrying about a trifle. Besides, how is Ezekiel 22 applicable to putting up a manger & Christmas tree ? ++
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Tantum_ergo
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Only half right, sir.
The twelve days of Christmas started the evening of Christmas Day and ended with the vigil of the Epiphany; Epiphany, sometimes called the feast of the three wise men, is January 6.
The winter solstice is another thing entirely.
Also, while January 1 was the start of the new year in the Roman Empire from about 150 BC, it was by no means the ‘norm’ for many countries, and in fact by 600 AD it was no longer celebrated as the start of the new year. Throughout the Middle Ages, most countries started the new year in March. The Gregorian Calender actually helped to ‘put back’ New Year’s Day onto January 1, and that of course was a relatively short time ago-a few hundred years only.
If you don’t really know the difference between the winter solstice and the twelve days of Christmas, or the historicity of New Year’s Day and when it was historically celebrated. . .why should we trust anything else you say?
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corvidae
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I remember asking for evidence that it was at the time of the winter solstice. Also, I thought that I made a point that there were two godesses worshiped by the planting of trees.
I do not see how a heathen custom revolving around a tree (I can tell you some stories of the norse and their oak trees) must obviously be a blow against Christmas trees.
A lone Raven
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fatherx
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Correction. I put the link in the very first post of this thread, and I will paste a portion of it here for you, since you didn’t take the time to read it.
**No one’s really sure how long ago humans recognized the winter solstice and began heralding it as a turning point – the day that marks the return of the sun. One delightful little book written in 1948, 4,000 Years of Christmas, puts its theory right up in the title. The Mesopotamians were first, it claims, with a 12-day festival of renewal, designed to help the god Marduk tame the monsters of chaos for one more year. **
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fatherx
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Don’t know how you could have missed it, but here it is again.
“…the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.” ** (from verse 2)
This is a major clue in the middle of this five verse paragraph. There is some kind of sign in the heavens associated with the heathen custom of taking a tree from the forest and decorating it.
So if this isn’t winter solstice and the decorated tree, what other heathen tradition takes a tree from the forest and decorates it, combined with signs in the heavens? If you have a credible answer, (please be specific) I would be interested in looking into it.
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LilyM
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Well for starters there are MANY other signs ‘of some kind’ in the heavens! Summer solstice for one, spring equinox (associated with May day and maypoles - which were decorated trees all right) and autumn equinox. New moons and full moons, each of which probably had customs of their own. Take your pick. Could be any month of the year.
The pagans were most likely fond enough of their trees to worship them in this way on each and every one of these dates - as we worship Christ every day, in season and out.
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FCEGM
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And THE “sign in the heavens” that shone over Bethlehem adorns the top of my Christmas tree. 
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fatherx
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No, it doesn’t say that it looks like a scarecrow. Here are three other Bible translations.
"Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they, And they cannot speak; They must be carried, Because they cannot walk! Do not fear them, For they can do no harm, Nor can they do any good." Verse 5 from the New American Standard Bible. Please notice the puncuation marks, comas. ‘Can not speak, can not walk, like a scarecrow’.
**As a palm they ‘are’ stiff, and they speak not, They are surely borne, for they step not, Be not afraid of them, for they do no evil, Yea, also to do good is not in them. ** Verse 5 from Young’s Literal Translation.
They are like a pillar in a garden of cucumbers, and speak not; they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good. Verse 5 from the Jewish Publication Society. I think it’s safe to say that the Jews have a handle on the Hebrew language.
The descriptions point to the fact that it is stiff, standing upright like a pillar, or scarecrow.
I don’t see where God says “worshipping” comes into play here. Of course if you did woship it, it would be wrong. The scripture points to the actual activity of taking a tree from the forest & decorating it, that’s the heathen tradition.
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fatherx
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Excellent guess Lily! I have researched the maypole, and there are at least a couple of good reasons why it doesn’t fit the Lord’s description.
- The Hebrew word used in Jeremiah means: “tree in its fimness”. And we know that roots make a tree firm, I have a link to the actual Hebrew definition in the original post of this thread for anyone who would like to check it out.
- There is no ‘sign in the heavens’, associated with maypoles.
Maypoles are used in conjuction with May Day, May 1st. Not an equinox or solstice, maybe every six or seven years it could fall on a full moon, but it’s not used on the first full moon of the month, for example.
Let me know if you find something else.
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corvidae
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Ok, you maintain that it is the winter solstice, ok, I get it.
You also maintian that because of the phrase " a tree in its firmness" it means that the tree had roots. Now, how do you carry a tree with its roots being firm, and christmas trees definately do not have roots.
In addition to this, as I tried to point out, there was worship of a goddess in which a tree or a grove of trees were planted.
I would ask you to show some evidence that the tree was involved in the winter solstice and only the winter solstice.
In addition there are many pagan customs involving trees, look up about the mayan world tree, the norse oak, the oak and holly trees for druids, the acacia tree for several cannanite godesses, or the laurel tree for the romans. I would ask for proof that this particular pagan ritual had something substantially similar to our christmas tree.
I also would ask that you look up some information on Ashera or Astarte, and see if that could be closer to what Jeremiah was talking about.
A lone Raven
You also maintian that because of the phrase " a tree in its firmness" it means that the tree had roots. Now, how do you carry a tree with its roots being firm, and christmas trees definately do not have roots.
In addition to this, as I tried to point out, there was worship of a goddess in which a tree or a grove of trees were planted.
I would ask you to show some evidence that the tree was involved in the winter solstice and only the winter solstice.
In addition there are many pagan customs involving trees, look up about the mayan world tree, the norse oak, the oak and holly trees for druids, the acacia tree for several cannanite godesses, or the laurel tree for the romans. I would ask for proof that this particular pagan ritual had something substantially similar to our christmas tree.
I also would ask that you look up some information on Ashera or Astarte, and see if that could be closer to what Jeremiah was talking about.
A lone Raven
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fatherx
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The Hebrew word shows us that the tree we are talking about is infact a tree, and not a post or plank. Be sure to read verse 3. “…for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.” KJV
So we have a real tree from the forest, cut with the axe. You are correct, looks like the roots are left behind, exactly like the Christmas tree.
You are correct again, about many rituals with trees, in my years of study, I have yet to find one that fits this scripture (other than the Christmas tree). But if you have a credible (specific) heathen tradition that seems to apply, I’d be more than willing to investigate it. (Ashera & Astarte have been brought up before, and they don’t fit either, I’m at work and don’t have the paticulars in front of me.)
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corvidae
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I would suggest that it may be similar to a post. For read it, they fasten it with nails, upright like a palm tree. Now, a palm tree has no branches except for the top, and a post most definately was a tree from the forest, and is the work of the workmans hand with an axe.
Now, I am fairly sure that there are times when ashara and astarte were worshiped by a decorated pole.
You are free to look it up when you wish.
A lone Raven
jhom.com/topics/trees/worship.htm
I would look here, notice Asherah itself is a word meaning “post”
Now, I am fairly sure that there are times when ashara and astarte were worshiped by a decorated pole.
You are free to look it up when you wish.
A lone Raven
jhom.com/topics/trees/worship.htm
I would look here, notice Asherah itself is a word meaning “post”
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fatherx
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This heathen tradition *stands upright like *the palm tree, it is not a palm tree. Scroll up to post #53.
Astarte was a stone sculptered figure of a goddess, I can find no similarities.
Asherah was a pillar of stone or sometimes wood, the tradition was to build fires, burn incense, make cakes. Her name has often been mistranslated to mean “groves”. See the last line of what I have cut & pasted below.
(Portions cut & pasted from Wikipedia, link below)
Biblical references have been taken to indicate that a goddess Asherah was worshipped in Israel and Judah, as the Queen of Heaven whose worship Jeremiah so vehemently opposed:
“Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to *make cakes *to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.”
—Jeremiah 7:17–18
“… to *burn incense *unto the queen of heaven, and to *pour out drink offerings *unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem …”
—Jeremiah 44:17
The Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival.
But the word asherah also refers to a standing pole of some kind, pluralized as a masculine noun when it has that meaning. Among the Hebrews’ Phoenician neighbors, tall *standing stone pillars *signified the numinous presence of a deity, and the asherahs may have been a rustic reflection of these. Or asherah may mean a living tree or grove of trees and therefore in some contexts mean a shrine. These uses have confused Biblical translators. Many older translations render Asherah as ‘grove’. There is still disagreement among scholars as to the extent to which Asherah (or various goddesses classed as Asherahs) was/were worshipped in Israel and Judah and whether such a goddess or class of goddesses is necessarily identical to the goddess Athirat/Ashratu.
**Asherah is always mistranslated “grove”. That error caused a theory that “the Hebrews cut down all the sacred groves, whereupon the land soon stopped flowing with milk and honey” **(see deforestation).en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah
Doesn’t match the descrirtion that the Lord gives us in Jeremiah 10:1-5, the incense, the fires, the cakes, drink offerings, are all missing. Asherah is mentioned 40 times in the Bible, not mentioned in this text though.
The Lord mentions the word “dismayed” twice in Jeremiah 10:1-5, when referring to the signs in the heavens. The ‘evergreen’ tree was used in the winter solstice festival because the heathens saw the days getting shorter, other trees losing their leaves, looked like they were dieing. They anticipated the solstice with anxiety, or dread, the definition of “dismayed”.
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corvidae
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Except almost universally the solstice is celebrated. It is the days getting longer and life returning to the earth.
Is it possible that the Israelites were scared of something that was happening in the sky that wasn’t a customary thing (if people are dismayed, they probably have not seen something like it before) and began to think that Yahweh had abandoned them, so Jeremiah was giving them hope, and admonishing them against practicing idolatry.
Unless something new comes up, this will be my last post, it seems that you are dead set in believing it is Christmas trees, and nothing will change your mind. I believe that it was something else, although I am not sure what. My guess would be some kind of Asherah or Astarte worship, but that is just a guess.
A lone Raven
p.s.- If Jeremiah has other admonishments against Asherah and Astarte, why could this not be another one?
Is it possible that the Israelites were scared of something that was happening in the sky that wasn’t a customary thing (if people are dismayed, they probably have not seen something like it before) and began to think that Yahweh had abandoned them, so Jeremiah was giving them hope, and admonishing them against practicing idolatry.
Unless something new comes up, this will be my last post, it seems that you are dead set in believing it is Christmas trees, and nothing will change your mind. I believe that it was something else, although I am not sure what. My guess would be some kind of Asherah or Astarte worship, but that is just a guess.
A lone Raven
p.s.- If Jeremiah has other admonishments against Asherah and Astarte, why could this not be another one?
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fatherx
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Please read the first couple of verses again. Jeremiah is the messanger, the message is clearly from the Lord. “Hear what the Lord says…” and “This is what the Lord says…” Jeremiah isn’t admonishing anyone, God is. Idolatry isn’t mentioned, worshipping isn’t mentioned, the “heathen tradition” is taking the tree from the forest & decorating it at the time of winter solstice.
Can’t be Astarte or Asherah for the reasons already posted, scroll back to post #58.
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