Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah?

[jmcrae]

The tradition of Christmas trees started in Germany about 500 years ago - it was invented by the Lutherans. We started “borrowing” it from them about 200 years ago, because it makes a fun teaching device for kids to learn about Christ’s nativity and incarnation.

By the way, Happy Winter Solstice!!

Christmas isn’t until Monday, though - and New Year’s isn’t for another week after that … do you really think that the early pagans got confused and thought that today was Christmas, or that Christmas/New Year’s was the Winter Solstice?

 

[jmcrae]

Please read the first couple of verses again. Jeremiah is the messanger, the message is clearly from the Lord. “Hear what the Lord says…” and “This is what the Lord says…” Jeremiah isn’t admonishing anyone, God is. Idolatry isn’t mentioned, worshipping isn’t mentioned, the “heathen tradition” is taking the tree from the forest & decorating it at the time of winter solstice.
Can’t be Astarte or Asherah for the reasons already posted, scroll back to post #58.

The message of the Lord from Jeremiah was for the diaspora Hebrews - diaspora means “the scattered ones.” The diaspora Hebrews did not celebrate Christmas, and they did not have Christmas trees. Indeed, they were living more than 2,000 years before the first Christmas tree was ever erected.

They were tempted to participate in pagan idolotry because they were a minority population in a predominantly pagan land. That’s why the Lord was warning them against it.

Jeremiah was not looking into a crystal ball, nor making any kind of an oracle about Christmas trees.

 

[scapularkid8]

I’m probably wrong, but I’m just trying to take a different look at this: Is it possible that Jeremiah could be speaking in symbolism? Maybe it’s not intended to be literal. Just a thought.

 

[fatherx]

The message of the Lord from Jeremiah was for the diaspora Hebrews - diaspora means “the scattered ones.” The diaspora Hebrews did not celebrate Christmas, and they did not have Christmas trees. Indeed, they were living more than 2,000 years before the first Christmas tree was ever erected.

They were tempted to participate in pagan idolotry because they were a minority population in a predominantly pagan land. That’s why the Lord was warning them against it.

Jeremiah was not looking into a crystal ball, nor making any kind of an oracle about Christmas trees.

God’s message is for Jew & Gentile according to the scriptures,
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:12 (KJV)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galations 3:28 (KJV)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (KJV)

The Hebrews probably didn’t practice the heathen tradition of the Christmas tree, that’s why this is prophecy. Jeremiah didn’t have a crystal ball, the message isn’t even from Jeremiah! As explained before, the verses say the message is from the Lord, and only the Lord knows the future.
God is giving his message (through Jeremiah), that in the future (from Jeremiah’s time), there will be a heathen custom where people take a tree from the forest and decorate it, at the time of winter solstice.
(not here to beat it over anybody’s head, if you have made up your mind, move on. If you have sincere questions, I’d like to help.)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Correction. I put the link in the very first post of this thread, and I will paste a portion of it here for you, since you didn’t take the time to read it.
**No one’s really sure how long ago humans recognized the winter solstice and began heralding it as a turning point – the day that marks the return of the sun. One delightful little book written in 1948, 4,000 Years of Christmas, puts its theory right up in the title. The Mesopotamians were first, it claims, with a 12-day festival of renewal, designed to help the god Marduk tame the monsters of chaos for one more year. **

++ 1. The festival in question is the New Year Festival celebrated at Babylon
2. It lasted 11 days, not 12
3. The calendars used in Mesopotamia were lunar; which meant that feasts were movable, not fixed, as the Nativity is
4. It had nothing to do with winter, & everything to do with preserving the stability against the forces of chaos.
5. The sun, though a god, was not the supreme god.
6. The festival did not help Marduk with anything - it did celebrate his kingship over all the gods; the so-called “Babylonian Creation Epic”, the Enuma Elish, was recited during it; & the E.e. contains an episode in which Marduk chooses Babylon as his city.

The facts of Babylonian religion are far more interesting than the cock-eyed theories some people make up about them

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

God’s message is for Jew & Gentile according to the scriptures,
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:12 (KJV)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galations 3:28 (KJV)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (KJV)

The Hebrews probably didn’t practice the heathen tradition of the Christmas tree, that’s why this is prophecy. Jeremiah didn’t have a crystal ball, the message isn’t even from Jeremiah! As explained before, the verses say the message is from the Lord, and only the Lord knows the future.
God is giving his message (through Jeremiah), that in the future (from Jeremiah’s time), there will be a heathen custom where people take a tree from the forest and decorate it, at the time of winter solstice.
(not here to beat it over anybody’s head, if you have made up your mind, move on. If you have sincere questions, I’d like to help.)

++ Actually, their lack of Christmas trees is an indication that the passage has no more to do with Christmas trees than with hobbits or Mr.Spock - & everything to do with ridiculing the the notion that divine statues were in in any sense gods. This would fit neatly into the pattern of attacks by the Prophets upon the gods of other nations, and their insistence upon the claims of the God of the Jews. It fits the period, its ideas, & its religion perfectly.

 

[FCEGM]

++ Actually, their lack of Christmas trees is an indication that the passage has no more to do with Christmas trees than with hobbits or Mr.Spock - & everything to do with ridiculing the the notion that divine statues were in in any sense gods. This would fit neatly into the pattern of attacks by the Prophets upon the gods of other nations, and their insistence upon the claims of the God of the Jews. It fits the period, its ideas, & its religion perfectly.

Yes; and the satire is obvious - like that of Elijah towards the priests of Baal. Also, the passage is similar to Isaiah 40:20 where the poor man who cannot afford an idol cast of metal and overlayed with gold must get a piece of wood and take it to a “skilled craftsman to set up an idol that will not totter” - Jeremiah reads, “they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.”

Also, looking at other translations of the Jeremiah passage (unless one has a particular penchant for the KJV only) we see that these translations show even more clearly the passage’s true intent :

"Do not learn the ways of the nations or take alarm at the heavenly signs, alarmed though the nations may be at them. Yes, the customs of the peoples are quite futile; wood, nothing more, cut out of a forest, worked with a blade by a carver’s hand, then embellished with silver and gold, then fastened with hammer and nails to keep it from moving. Like scarecrows in a melon patch, they cannot talk, they have to be carried, since they cannot walk."The New Jerusalem Bible.

"Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. For the practices of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a skilled worker shapes it with a chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."The New International Version

“Learn not the customs of the nations, and have no fear of the signs of the heavens, though the nations fear them. For the cult idols of the nations are nothing, wood cut from the forest, wrought by craftsmen with the adze, adorned with silver and gold. With nails and hammers they are fastened that they may not totter. . .” New American Bible.

Further, the OP neglected to include verses 6 through 11 which give the full context. The verses show that these are dressed idols - “clothed with violet and purple - all the work of artisans”, that are “dumb and senseless”, “the work of the craftsman and the handiwork of the smelter”, and not in any way comparable to the One True God who made the wood from which they are fashioned.

 

[Zooey]

Let’s look at this from a different angle. Let’s ignore Jeremiah 10:1-5. Do a web search on “Christmas tree origin”. You will find many, many web pages that spell out the heathen / pagan tradition of today’s Christmas tree. This can not be argued, the world agrees about it’s origin.

The world recognizes the tree tradition is a pagan practice, you can understand this and know that God is God, and if you go through the motions of this pagan custom… haven’t you made the same error as Solomon?
(please, no hateful responses, keep it kind-hearted)

And the world is always right??? I :nope: dinna think so, laddy!!

Prophet: –noun 1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.

The prophet, Jeremiah is writing this as an instruction from the Lord. Read verse #1 again. This is clearly not Jeremiah giving his opinion, he’s giving us God’s message.

Is anyone denying that Jeremiah was a prophet? I :nope:havena’ heard it. It’s your definition of prophecy that is in error.

While you are awaiting the “scoffers” to to give you evidence the rest of us are waiting to celebrate the Birth of Christ-My Christmas revolves around Christ-yours around attacking christmas trees.

And mine!!
These poor sad folk with nothing to do but fash themselves over a wee tree to welcome the Saviour’s birth…http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/7.gif

The Hebrews probably didn’t practice the heathen tradition of the Christmas tree, that’s why this is prophecy. Jeremiah didn’t have a crystal ball, the message isn’t even from Jeremiah! As explained before, the verses say the message is from the Lord, and only the Lord knows the future.
God is giving his message (through Jeremiah), that in the future (from Jeremiah’s time), there will be a heathen custom where people take a tree from the forest and decorate it, at the time of winter solstice.

In…forgive me, but: in your opinion!! You have given us nothing but your personal opinion that Jeremiah is predicting a “heathen custom”.
We have explained, repeatedly, that this is:nope: not supported by the text…Ye will keep disbelieveing us, yean…http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

[sign]I fear ye shall needs go off unsatisfied, for ye willnae listen!!![/sign]

 

[fatherx]

From Gottle of Geer:
**++ 1. The festival in question is the New Year Festival celebrated at Babylon
2. It lasted 11 days, not 12
3. The calendars used in Mesopotamia were lunar; which meant that feasts were movable, not fixed, as the Nativity is
4. It had nothing to do with winter, & everything to do with preserving the stability against the forces of chaos.
5. The sun, though a god, was not the supreme god.
6. The festival did not help Marduk with anything - it did celebrate his kingship over all the gods; the so-called “Babylonian Creation Epic”, the Enuma Elish, was recited during it; & the E.e. contains an episode in which Marduk chooses Babylon as his city.

The facts of Babylonian religion are far more interesting than the cock-eyed theories some people make up about them **

This is easily proven wrong. Below is a portion of what I found on Wikepedia. (If I were to cut & paste everything Wikepedia had on the 12 day winter solstice festival, this forum’s web site would blow a fuse)
Germanic neopaganism
In Germanic Neopagan sects, Yule is celebrated with gatherings that often involve a meal and gift giving. Further attempts at reconstruction of surviving accounts of historical celebrations are often made, a hallmark being variations of the traditional blót.
Groups such as the Asatru Folk Assembly in the US recognize the celebration as lasting for 12 days, beginning on the date of the winter solstice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
Oh, and the sun is not a god, because the pagans believed it was a god, does not make it a god. There is one true God.

 

[puzzleannie]

I TIVOed Charley Brown Christmas Tree, is it safe to play with friends and family, including kids? I don’t want to be accused of fostering pagan practices, would not sound good to the parish.

 

[fatherx]

Yes; and the satire is obvious - like that of Elijah towards the priests of Baal. Also, the passage is similar to Isaiah 40:20 where the poor man who cannot afford an idol cast of metal and overlayed with gold must get a piece of wood and take it to a “skilled craftsman to set up an idol that will not totter” - Jeremiah reads, “they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.”

Also, looking at other translations of the Jeremiah passage (unless one has a particular penchant for the KJV only) we see that these translations show even more clearly the passage’s true intent :

Further, the OP neglected to include verses 6 through 11 which give the full context. The verses show that these are dressed idols - “clothed with violet and purple - all the work of artisans”, that are “dumb and senseless”, “the work of the craftsman and the handiwork of the smelter”, and not in any way comparable to the One True God who made the wood from which they are fashioned.

You were wise using the word similar, and clearly they are not the same, otherwise it would be in the same paragraph. (it’s 30 chapters later!) Another indication that they are completely different subjects is the fact that one is called a heathen tradition, and the other is called an idol.

Be sure to check a good study Bilbe, there is a paragraph mark after verse 5, verse 6 begins a new paragraph with a different subject. (This is rule #1 in Bible study.)

 

[fatherx]

From Zooey:
And the world is always right??? I dinna think so, laddy!!

Of course the world isn’t always right, I was making the point that the scripture calls this a heathen custom, and so does 99% of the world. So there is no debate about it being a heathen custom!

Imagine this, there is a classroom with children on one side and this forum’s skeptics on the other. A teacher walks in with a question:* What old tradition takes a tree from the forest and decorates it around the time of winter solstice?* The side of the classroom with children frantically hold their hands in the air, it took them five seconds to figure out the answer. The other side of the room is stumped, this can’t possibly be the Christmas tree!

 

[rciadan]

Why would anyone think of worshipping a Christmas tree though - let alone do so ? Christians have done some weird things - but, tree-worship ?​

Father X’s next step in his arguement, I think, will be to announce that we Cathoilics should not have any sort of “graven images” and that we are pagan because we venerate holy images.
Call it my opinion or whatever; but, I am convinced that FatherX is not Catholic as his profile states. None of his arguements or posts come from a Catholic perspective. I am convinced that he is a Jehovahs Witness masquerading as a Catholic: using the same tactics as Satan- lies and half-truths.

 

[fatherx]

I TIVOed Charley Brown Christmas Tree, is it safe to play with friends and family, including kids? I don’t want to be accused of fostering pagan practices, would not sound good to the parish.

Puzzled Annie?
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. Proverbs 15:2

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Fatherx, with due respect, the pagan practices of Yule etc. are by no means synonymous with, or related to, the pagan practices of the Babylonian religions.

I think that this is where you’ve made your fundamental error (no pun intended).

Just as you have confused the days of the solstice with 'the twelve days of Christmas" (they are not one and the same and never have been), you have confused the practices of ancient religions with those of other groups practiced centuries, or millennia, later.

 

[tabcom]

I think there are four threads discussing the Jeremiah passage - including this one

**The one that I started was retired. I was going to put a bookmark on the subject to be revisited next year. However, I see there is still interest in it now . . **

I wouldn’t mind knowing why it is so important for Jeremiah (in 626-586 BC) to have interested himself in the activities of Christians in Europe & the USA in 2006 AD.

**You need to recalibrate your telescope into the distant past. The first tree worship was not with Ahab and Jezebel, it was with Adam and Eve.

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?

Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
**

Besides, if the oracle in chapter 10 referred to what for Jeremiah would have been the distant future (a supposition for which there is not the slightest foundation)

**The Book of Jeremiah is included in the canon of Scripture because it is relevent to life today.

2 Tim 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness
**

 

[puzzleannie]

Puzzled Annie?
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. Proverbs 15:2

thank you but I think you gave me this lovely citation on another thread already.

 

[fatherx]

 

[fatherx]

Fatherx, with due respect, the pagan practices of Yule etc. are by no means synonymous with, or related to, the pagan practices of the Babylonian religions.

I think that this is where you’ve made your fundamental error (no pun intended).

Just as you have confused the days of the solstice with 'the twelve days of Christmas" (they are not one and the same and never have been), you have confused the practices of ancient religions with those of other groups practiced centuries, or millennia, later.

Wow. You have to be making this up! Where did I say anything about the Babylonian religions? I don’t know what you read, but it wasn’t my post. I’ve been repeating that the Lord is describing a heathen custom that happens well after Jeremiah’s time. That’s why is called prophecy, only God is capable of this.
I posted at least two links to information on the 12 day winter solstice festival, that starts on the 21st and ends on the first.
I wish you all the best in changing the history books.

 

[FCEGM]

You were wise using the word similar, and clearly they are not the same, otherwise it would be in the same paragraph. (it’s 30 chapters later!) Another indication that they are completely different subjects is the fact that one is called a heathen tradition, and the other is called an idol.

LOL. Given these are two different prophets, it’s hardly surprising that 30 chapters would separate their admonishments regarding the gods of the pagans; nor is it surprising when their inspired words are expressed according to the unique character of each.

There is nothing “clear” about both passages (of Jeremiah and Isaiah) being about anything but idols. Idols are a “heathen tradition”, THE “heathen tradition” most offensive to the One God, and Jeremiah is quite clear in the full context that he is warning against having anything to do with carved images of false gods. Further - and what you failed to address - is that different translations leave no doubt as to what Jeremiah’s one concern is in these verses.

Be sure to check a good study Bilbe, there is a paragraph mark after verse 5, verse 6 begins a new paragraph with a different subject. (This is rule #1 in Bible study.)

OTC, as with much of the OT (especially apparent in the Psalms), the same teaching is often expressed in slightly different ways to make the one point; in this instance: do not become involved with the carved images of false gods because only GOD is GOD.