Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fatherx
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
**Getting beyond if the tree of Jeremiah’s day is the christmas tree of today; I ask the question,

‘Can the christmas tree take on the appearence of something evil and cause a believer to stumble in their faith’? **
 
fatherx said:
rciadan;1754261:
rciadan, my accuser. Do you know who God calls “the accuser”?
Talk about half truths, I haven’t announced that Catholics are anything, certainly not pagan.
As a former
Click to expand...
member of the Catholic church, (St. Philip Benizi church in Jonesboro Georgia), I was married in the Catholic church (St. Michael’s church in Greenville Pa.) and married a beautiful young Catholic girl 21 years ago. We now attend a non-denominational church, the Catholic church is the last church denomination that we have been affiliated with.
Want something interesting to study? Go back and check God’s instruction on how to build the Ark of the covenant, I think some have taken the “graven images” thing too far. Seems to me He directed that certain cherubs be sculptured, etc…
You have made my point. You are no longer Catholic, having excommunicated yourself by choosing to ref=gularly attend a church other than the Catholic Church; yet, you identify yourslf as “Catholic” in your profile. This is misleading and, according to your own explanation given above, a half truth. I do not accuse, I simply proclaim the truth. I am sorry it is hard for you to bear.
Click to expand...
 
Ah, so you’re saying the Jeremiah was not addressing the practices of the Babylonian religions (which were in existance at the time he spoke, and had practices involving the making of wooden idols). . .

no, instead he was speaking not to the Jewish people to warn them against following the heathen practices, but to people thousands of years later to avoid something entirely different. . .a Christmas tree. Something which is not a wooden idol nor worshipped.

O-kay. I hear you. But since this ‘prophecy’ would involve private interpretation of the Scripture, something which Peter warns us against, I’ll take the word of the Spirit (which does not condemn Christmas trees), but thanks all the same.
 
rciadan said:
Father X’s next step in his arguement, I think, will be to announce that we Cathoilics should not have any sort of “graven images” and that we are pagan because we venerate holy images.
Call it my opinion or whatever; but, I am convinced that FatherX is not Catholic as his profile states. None of his arguements or posts come from a Catholic perspective. I am convinced that he is a Jehovahs Witness masquerading as a Catholic: using the same tactics as Satan- lies and half-truths.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
FCEGM said:
Yes; and the satire is obvious - like that of Elijah towards the priests of Baal. Also, the passage is similar to Isaiah 40:20 where the poor man who cannot afford an idol cast of metal and overlayed with gold must get a piece of wood and take it to a “skilled craftsman to set up an idol that will not totter” - Jeremiah reads, “they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.”

Also, looking at other translations of the Jeremiah passage (unless one has a particular penchant for the KJV only) we see that these translations show even more clearly the passage’s true intent :

Further, the OP neglected to include verses 6 through 11 which give the full context. The verses show that these are dressed idols - “clothed with violet and purple - all the work of artisans”, that are “dumb and senseless”, “the work of the craftsman and the handiwork of the smelter”, and not in any way comparable to the One True God who made the wood from which they are fashioned.
Click to expand...
++ Of course that was neglected 🙂 :rolleyes: - because it perfectly fits the religious practices Jeremiah, Second Isaiah, & Ezekiel were satirising, such as divination by astrology, clothing of gods, etc.; it fits the religious ideas of the Babylonians; for that is precisely what did they did; there are editions of texts that show this. Therefore, it can’t have anything to do with them: no, what it really refers to, is the Christmas tree (!), of which neither they nor Jeremiah nor any other person alive knew anything whatever 😉 😉 😉
 
fatherx said:
From Gottle of Geer:
++ 1. The festival in question is the New Year Festival celebrated at Babylon
2. It lasted 11 days, not 12
**3. The calendars used in Mesopotamia were lunar; which meant that feasts were movable, not fixed, as the Nativity is **
**4. It had nothing to do with winter, & everything to do with preserving the stability against the forces of chaos. **
**5. The sun, though a god, was not the supreme god. **
**6. The festival did not help Marduk with anything - it did celebrate his kingship over all the gods; the so-called “Babylonian Creation Epic”, the Enuma Elish, was recited during it; & the E.e. contains an episode in which Marduk chooses Babylon as his city. **

**The facts of Babylonian religion are far more interesting than the cock-eyed theories some people make up about them **

This is easily proven wrong. Below is a portion of what I found on Wikepedia. (If I were to cut & paste everything Wikepedia had on the 12 day winter solstice festival, this forum’s web site would blow a fuse)
Germanic neopaganism
In Germanic Neopagan sects, Yule is celebrated with gatherings that often involve a meal and gift giving. Further attempts at reconstruction of surviving accounts of historical celebrations are often made, a hallmark being variations of the traditional blót.
Groups such as the Asatru Folk Assembly in the US recognize the celebration as lasting for 12 days, beginning on the date of the winter solstice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
Oh, and the sun is not a god, because the pagans believed it was a god, does not make it a god. There is one true God.
Click to expand...
++ 1. Jeremiah was not a German (no, really, he wasn’t)
2. He was in no position to know anything of Yule, etc.
3. He was a Jew, in seventh-century Judah, so, well-placed to know something of the religious ideas of Judah’s neighbours - many of which were present in Judah itself
4. The sun was indeed a god, as far as the Babylonians were concerned, & many other peoples - that no Christian believes it to be a god, is not the point; the post was not saying what Christians believe.
5. All of the statements I made about the New Year festival at Babylon are entirely accurate; they can easily be confirmed and supplemented
6. You’ve not shown any error in what was said. Not surprisingly, because German paganism is irrelevant to Babylonian religion - what applies to the latter, does not necessarily apply to the former.
 
I’ve been falsely accused as being JW, I am not, never have been. But I’ve come to expect that kind of thing from this forum.
Many of you are stuck on the words “idol” and “worship”. The Lord doesn’t mention either in these five verses. (Jer. 10:1-5)
Over and over again it has been claimed that this is describing a wooden carving like a scarecrow, an idol. But the Lord makes it clear it’s a heathen tradition, and its stands upright like a scarecrow. No worship involved, those points have been made repeatedly. The tradition is taking the tree from the forest and decorating it.
Jeremiah could not have known about Christmas trees, he was a mortal, and had no way of knowing what would develop in the future. But because he was a prophet of God, the Lord’s message about the future tradition is told, proving that it is from God.
I have pointed out that the word the Lord repeated, “dismayed”
means to “dread, anticipate in anxiety”. The heathen understood that the winter solstice was coming, hence the tradition of the evergreen tree, it didn’t lose it’s leaves and appear to being dieing like the other trees. If this isn’t the Christmas tree, what heathen tradition takes a tree from the forest, decorates it, all at the time of winter solstice? (winter solstice fits perfectly because the heathen “dread” or anticipated it with anxiety) Nobody has been able to come up with another tradition that fits this perfectly.
I did not intend to become a permanant fixture on this forum, I believe I was directed here. I will not be chasing down any more wild theories, my work is done here. Thanks for the e-mails, I appreciate the support from fellow believers. Merry Christmas!🙂
 
fatherx said:
Even if you’re not absolutely convinced that this is the Christmas tree, why would you practice a pagan / heathen tradition?
Click to expand...
Are you married, and if so, do you wear a wedding ring? The wedding ring has its origins in paganism.

You are confusing the intent to engage in pagan rituals with symbols. A symbol, as a symbol, does not have any intrinsic spiritual substance—it is merely a form of communication. If a culture no longer recognizes that a symbol means a certain thing, then it does not mean that anymore. Period.

God has defined some symbols, as as such, we share a common understanding of them. But most symbols are entirely culturally defined, such as the Christmas tree and wedding rings. If culture can define them in the first place, culture can change them.

This is no different than the etymology of words. The word “nice” means something much different nowadays than it used to. It used to mean “ignorant” of “foolish.” If I say you are nice today, however, there is no lingering insult that should be associated. It simply does not mean that anymore. If I say you are nice, it is a compliment.

So whatever the winter solstice tree used to mean, it no longer means that. And as others have clearly explained, the text in Jeremiah is not warning against Christmas trees.
 
fatherx said:
I’ve been falsely accused as being JW, I am not, never have been. But I’ve come to expect that kind of thing from this forum.
Click to expand...
++That does not justify interpreting Jeremiah 10 as a reference to the CT. We can’t be convinced just to save people’s feelings, I’m sorry. The idea is not justified merely by being put forward - unconvincing ideas are unconvincing no matter who puts them forward. And when the arguments for them are weak, people are entirely justified in saying so.

The interpretation of the passage to refer to CTs is found among JWs, so it was understandable that you should be ID’d as a JW. I think you brought that identification on yourself - for if people sound like JWs, but claim to be Catholics, they are likely to be ID’d as JWs. ++
Many of you are stuck on the words “idol” and “worship”. The Lord doesn’t mention either in these five verses. (Jer. 10:1-5)
Click to expand...
++ An OP who has argued against CTs on another thread (& has posted on this one) appears to disagree - though I don’t altogether understand his position ++
Over and over again it has been claimed that this is describing a wooden carving like a scarecrow, an idol. But the Lord makes it clear it’s a heathen tradition, and its stands upright like a scarecrow. No worship involved, those points have been made repeatedly. The tradition is taking the tree from the forest and decorating it.
Click to expand...
++ “Like X”, implies, “not X”. A divine statue =/= a scarecrow; but it can certainly be compared to one, if one is denouncing such things. DSs:
  • sat or stood
  • were often of wood
  • had clothes
  • received worship
  • needed repair
  • as did their clothes
  • received meals
  • were portable [some had ceremonial barges]
  • were of gods, who revealed their wills in many ways
  • including prophecy, astrology, dreams, etc.
Jeremiah could not have known about Christmas trees, he was a mortal, and had no way of knowing what would develop in the future. But because he was a prophet of God, the Lord’s message about the future tradition is told, proving that it is from God.
Click to expand...
++ Your argument assumes what it has to prove - that the prophecy is predictive

If Jeremiah did not understand what he was saying, that makes him no more than a medium, “channelling” the word of his god. You assume that Jeremiah’s tree is the CT - but why can there not be a later fulfilment of the alleged prediction ? We have only your word for it that the “prediction” is fulfilled now, about 2000 AD, & has not been fulfilled in a way of which no record remains; or will not be fulfilled at some distant date in time to come. The equation of CTs with Jeremiah’s tree, is full of holes. ++
I have pointed out that the word the Lord repeated, “dismayed” means to “dread, anticipate in anxiety”. The heathen understood that the winter solstice was coming, hence the tradition of the evergreen tree, it didn’t lose it’s leaves and appear to being dieing like the other trees. If this isn’t the Christmas tree, what heathen tradition takes a tree from the forest, decorates it, all at the time of winter solstice? (winter solstice fits perfectly because the heathen “dread” or anticipated it with anxiety) Nobody has been able to come up with another tradition that fits this perfectly.
Click to expand...
++ Of course they haven’t, because you’ve ignored what they’ve said. That’s not their fault, but that of the poster who has not bothered to acknowledge their arguments. Please don’t blame us if you don’t acknowledge our objections.

The text says nothing of the winter solstice, & you’ve cut it short of the very verses which would show (if anything could) that the passage is about divine statues, & not about CTs - as an OP has pointed out a few posts above. If you do that, don’t blame us for your misinterpretation of the text. ++
I did not intend to become a permanant fixture on this forum, I believe I was directed here. I will not be chasing down any more wild theories, my work is done here. Thanks for the e-mails, I appreciate the support from fellow believers. Merry Christmas!🙂
Click to expand...
++ Same to you, when it comes ++
 
Just blame Martin Luther for starting the concept of decorating palm trees in winter.

But should we claim the Christmas tree is pagan just because many people theorized they came from pagans and many Neopagans use them today? I guess we should also get rid of our Crosses since there are similar symbols in paganism.
 
quote=fatherx;been falsely accused as being JW, I am not, never have been. But I’ve come to expect that kind of thing from this forum.
Click to expand...
I wish to make it clear that I did not accuse fatherx of being a JW. I merely stated my suspicions, based on the fact that nothing he wrote was in any way Catholic thinking. In fact, I have heard these same rantings from JWs.
 
rciadan said:
I wish to make it clear that I did not accuse fatherx of being a JW. I merely stated my suspicions, based on the fact that nothing he wrote was in any way Catholic thinking. In fact, I have heard these same rantings from JWs.
Click to expand...
Seventh Day Adventists and Plymouth Brethren also have really weird paranoias about Christmas trees.
 
jmcrae said:
Seventh Day Adventists and Plymouth Brethren also have really weird paranoias about Christmas trees.
Click to expand...
I thought he was SDA. (Tabcom too). That’s what they sound like.
May not be, but that’s what it sounds like to me!!
 
patrick457 said:
Just blame Martin Luther for starting the concept of decorating palm trees in winter.

But should we claim the Christmas tree is pagan just because many people theorized they came from pagans and many Neopagans use them today? I guess we should also get rid of our Crosses since there are similar symbols in paganism.
Click to expand...
What about my:eek: cat? The ancient Egyptians :yup: worshipped cats. They were symbols of fertility!!!..

Hmmmm…let me think…
Well, I :nope: can’t think about it now! I have to go worship the :bowdown: :bowdown: Sacred :bigyikes: Stinking :bowdown2: :bowdown2: Catbox!!
 
Zooey said:
What about my:eek: cat? The ancient Egyptians :yup: worshipped cats. They were symbols of fertility!!!..

Hmmmm…let me think…
Well, I :nope: can’t think about it now! I have to go worship the :bowdown: :bowdown: Sacred :bigyikes: Stinking :bowdown2: :bowdown2: Catbox!!
Click to expand...
I guess the Ancient Pagans worshiped just about anything, so if we are to get rid of anything the pagans worshiped, the world would be blank.

Now excuse me while I go worship my Paper and pencil, which was worshiped by the Ancient Gibberish tribes under the name ‘Doodle’ and ‘Eberhard’.

The Act of drawing itself came from the pagans as a part of their Ceremony to their gods Doodle and Eberhard which was called the ‘Art Festival’ wherein they would worship their gods by drawing and writing on paper. This feast was a four-part feast coinciding with the 4th of July, the Winter Solstice, Vernal Equinox and April 1st.

Now that the Pagan origins of paper and drawing (and by extension, writing) are proven, it is time for us to shun and abhor these heathen practices.
 
patrick457 said:
I guess the Ancient Pagans worshiped just about anything, so if we are to get rid of anything the pagans worshiped, the world would be blank.

Now excuse me while I go worship my Paper and pencil, which was worshiped by the Ancient Gibberish tribes under the name ‘Doodle’ and ‘Eberhard’.

The Act of drawing itself came from the pagans as a part of their Ceremony to their gods Doodle and Eberhard which was called the ‘Art Festival’ wherein they would worship their gods by drawing and writing on paper. This feast was a four-part feast coinciding with the 4th of July, the Winter Solstice, Vernal Equinox and April 1st.

Now that the Pagan origins of paper and drawing (and by extension, writing) are proven, it is time for us to shun and abhor these heathen practices.
Click to expand...
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And don’t forget cucumbers! All that :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: worshipping going on in the Sacred Cucumber Patches of Babylon!!http://bestsmileys.com/lol/17.gif
There is no end to the things we have to get rid of!!!
 
Zooey said:
And don’t forget cucumbers! All that :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: worshipping going on in the Sacred Cucumber Patches of Babylon!!http://bestsmileys.com/lol/17.gif
There is no end to the things we have to get rid of!!!
Click to expand...
Eating Brussels Sprouts and broccoli is definitely a vile heathen custom that should be got rid of forthwith :yup:

Unfortunately the risk is that I will myself become an object of worship by doing so. Worshipped by all the kids out there who, using their childlike instinct for things sacred :bowdown2: and things profane, sussed out the vegetables of Satan long ago.
 
LilyM said:
Eating Brussels Sprouts and broccoli is definitely a vile heathen custom that should be got rid of forthwith :yup:

Unfortunately the risk is that I will myself become an object of worship by doing so. Worshipped by all the kids out there who, using their childlike instinct for things sacred :bowdown2: and things profane, sussed out the vegetables of Satan long ago.
Click to expand...
We should also shun, abhor children for many Ancient Cultures had gods in the form of children.

I guess we should shun Churches and ways of worshiping since they were clearly similar to Ancient Temples of the pagans, and the pagans also woshiped their gods in ceremonies. Did not the Prophets condemn the ACT OF WORSHIPING false gods IN THEIR TEMPLES?

…But we should also get rid of Books and Scrolls (including the Bible, unfortunately) since Pagans were the ones who invented them
(Yeah, I know the Codex was now being thought by some as being invented by Christians, but did not the Heathen still used and corrupted this invention by writing their Filthy texts on them and worshiping gods which they claim to have invented books [and literacy in general]?)

We should remove these unholy, abominable things from our sight for they are paganistic trappings that leads us away from the True God.

[As an aside, though, because pagans worshipped ‘gods’, I think we should also remove the concept of ‘God’ since pagans held on to them.]
 
Zooey said:
I thought he was SDA. (Tabcom too). That’s what they sound like.
May not be, but that’s what it sounds like to me!!
Click to expand...
’Sounds like to me". Thank you for the admission that you really don’t know what you are talking about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top