Christ's sacrafice

  • Thread starter Thread starter TomD123
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am following your logic here - God is good, God is not created , God creates and calls it good. Good is not created only God is Good. Creation must also be God.

Yes, all black things are black -:rolleyes:

The definition of evil is the same one you are using - the absence of good.
That is your logic. If you like that you should try this one. God is love, Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind, Ray Charles must be god.

I have begun to doubt your sincerity in seeking the truth, as it has been laid out ot you several times.
God is good and uncreated. God is distinct from creation. Everything God created is good, because it corresponds to the desire He had when created it. Good things can be misused and in being misused they can bring about evil --or the absence of the good they were intended for. God cannot misuse so He cannot create moral evil. Evil actually cannot be created because it is a negation and privation. You cannot create a negative, though you can cause one by the absence of its perfection.
 
No it doesn’t work because love being blind doesn’t make all blind things love. There is absolutism in the nature of God. Neither blindness or Ray Charles (mmm what I saayyyy) has this absolutism.

You keep pointing to privation as something that can’t be created. I don’t follow that logic

Cold is a lack of heat - I can remove heat and create cold. I have a machine in my kitchen that does just that. A cold making machine. Keeps my food fresh and makes ice.

If Death is a privation of life - death can be made to manifest. Death is a actual state of being. You can kill something.

If you bring that state into being, you are creating that state. You can’t have cold with out heat. You can’t have death without life.

You can doubt my sincerity but why would I bother being here. I just doubt the basic tenets of Christianity. I was raised Catholic but the more I thought about it the less sense it makes. I came here to see if I’m missing something and try and regain my faith. I will grant you that it doesn’t seem to be working.
 
The point of the fall is that we are genuinely in control of our destiny. We are not compelled to do what is good, right and just. Whether we are saved or not still depends on us. God’s infinite love never ceases to offer us every means of turning over a new leaf and living for others rather than ourselves…
Code:
  We are not just back to go. We now have the example of Christ to follow.
Yes, the “back to go” is a state of grace. What was once given we have to now work for through over following of Christs example. Same “result” but with more work.

It’s not the same result. Being liberated from evil by the power of Christ’s love is hardly comparable to our original state. To object to having more work amounts to expecting to have everything for nothing. Even in a state of grace we all get what we deserve - depending on our efforts and sacrifices.

It would be better if evil didn’t exist but now that it does it serves as a challenge and a means of demonstrating the power of love. That is the meaning of “felix culpa”…

BTW Love is lucid. It is hate that is blind…
 
It’s not the same result. Being liberated from evil by the power of Christ’s love is hardly comparable to our original state. To object to having more work amounts to expecting to have everything for nothing. Even in a state of grace we all get what we deserve - depending on our efforts and sacrifices.

It would be better if evil didn’t exist but now that it does it serves as a challenge and a means of demonstrating the power of love. That is the meaning of “felix culpa”…

BTW Love is lucid. It is hate that is blind…
What proof can you give that Christ’s love is superior to our original state. God called his creation good, very good. The garden was earthly paradise. The original state seems to be the ideal. Christ is the redeemer from falling from that ideal.
 
No it doesn’t work because love being blind doesn’t make all blind things love. There is absolutism in the nature of God. Neither blindness or Ray Charles (mmm what I saayyyy) has this absolutism.

You keep pointing to privation as something that can’t be created. I don’t follow that logic

Cold is a lack of heat - I can remove heat and create cold. I have a machine in my kitchen that does just that. A cold making machine. Keeps my food fresh and makes ice.

If Death is a privation of life - death can be made to manifest. Death is a actual state of being. You can kill something.

If you bring that state into being, you are creating that state. You can’t have cold with out heat. You can’t have death without life.

You can doubt my sincerity but why would I bother being here. I just doubt the basic tenets of Christianity. I was raised Catholic but the more I thought about it the less sense it makes. I came here to see if I’m missing something and try and regain my faith. I will grant you that it doesn’t seem to be working.
You do not seem to understand goodness and evil. Goodness and evil are not like heat and cold, front and back. Heat/cold and front/back are relative terms. 100 degrees can be colder than 110 degrees yet 100 degrees can be hotter than 90 degrees. A front can only exist in relation to a back, there can be no front without a back nor a back without a front.

Goodness and evil are not like this. Goodness exists independently of evil. You can have goodness without evil. This is different than your example of heat/ cold and front/back which need the other to exist.

All things are good because they have the perfection of existing. Goodness, the “bonum” is a transcendental. All things that are, are good. One could say even the devil is good becausse he has certain perfections by his existence. he is not morally good because he abuses his being and points it to a disordered end. There is a difference in the way things are good. Things are good because they exist but can also be used for bad which makes their use evil. The evil in their use is because the use was uninted by the creator and lacks that perfection. We must distinguish between goodness of being and goodness/evil of use.

God’s “goodness” is not the same as the goodness of created things. Each thing can only be as good or as perfect as its nature. A man can never be as “good” as God because he can never have all of the perfections God has. This does not make man bad or evil, because he was never intended to have these perfections. What would make a man bad or evil morally–he would always have trascendental goodness by the fact he has the perfection of existence–would be him pointing himself towards an end contrary to the end --God–that he was created for.

Think of it this way. A watch that does not tell time is a bad watch because it does not fulfill the purpose for which it was created, a boat that does not float is also bad. Though they cannot be bad morally because they do nat have freedom of choice, and still are good in-so-far as they exist but are bad/evil because they lack the perfection of telling time, or floating, depending on the purpose for which they were created.

Death lacks the perfection of life and is evil. Death can be caused but not created, there is a difference in the two. You cannnot create a privation though you can cause one. A privation is a lack of being a nothingness. You cannot create “nothing” since “nothing” does not exist and has no being. Strictly speaking evil does not exist because it has no existence of its own. It is a lack of perfection. Evil is a way of describing something–a good or perfection-- that is missing not describing something extra. Saying an action is evil does not mean that evilness exists in that action, it means that the action does not have a good end. Evil does not exist in opposition to good as a thing is hot or cold, evil tells of a lacking or missing perfection.
 
What proof can you give that Christ’s love is superior to our original state. God called his creation good, very good. The garden was earthly paradise. The original state seems to be the ideal. Christ is the redeemer from falling from that ideal.
You are comparing a natural good to a supernatural good. Man before had a natural goodness now throught the Incarnation he has the ability to be lifted up above his nature and participate in the life of God through grace.
 
What proof can you give that Christ’s love is superior to our original state.
Do I need to give a proof? If you sacrifice your life for others would they need any further proof that your love is superior to their original state?
God called his creation good, very good. The garden was earthly paradise. The original state seems to be the ideal.
It was - before evil reared its ugly head! Life on this earth is an immensely valuable gift. We cannot claim to have a right to heaven.
Christ is the redeemer from falling from that ideal.
How can a **divine **Redeemer fall from the ideal of an earthly paradise? If He offers to share His life with you is that a fault or a failure? On the contrary He has transformed evil into an opportunity for demonstrating the power He has given us.
 
I feel like whether or not evil is a privation or not, God still created the world knowing that it would contain evil. It was mentioned before that God isn’t responsible for the evil. But if He created the world, and through His omniscience, knew that The Fall would occur then He did cause evil to enter the world. Saying that it was man’s fault is like blaming the bullet for the the murder instead of the killer. Sure, the bullet is technically what pierced the heart, but the killer had full knowledge that this would happen and is therefore responsible.

And that makes the whole thing so bizarre; that God creates a world in which He knows evil will occur, holds people accountable for that evil, only to eventually open a loophole to get out of that evil. Why build something that you know will break, only to patch it up later? Especially if you are omnipotent and could’ve built it right in the first place? It seems very weird when looked at from God’s point of view.
 
Man is a rational animal and to take away his free will would destroy his nature. Man without free will would no longer be a man.
 
You do not seem to understand goodness and evil. Goodness and evil are not like heat and cold, front and back. Heat/cold and front/back are relative terms. 100 degrees can be colder than 110 degrees yet 100 degrees can be hotter than 90 degrees. A front can only exist in relation to a back, there can be no front without a back nor a back without a front.

Goodness and evil are not like this. Goodness exists independently of evil. You can have goodness without evil. This is different than your example of heat/ cold and front/back which need the other to exist.
You don’t under stand cold - Cold is a lack of heat. Ask any scientist. Evil cannot exist with out goodness for evil is a lack of goodness. If there is no sliding scale of evil then the mildest infraction is weighted as the same as the most severe. Cursing is the same as Adultery is the same Murder as the same as … All sin is then the same, no mortal or venial - it’s all equally evil. Taking the name of God in vain is the same level as Lucifer’s rebellion.

You keep talking about the nature of goodness. It’s not about goodness, it is the reduction of goodness, this reductive process was made possible by God.
 
You don’t under stand cold - Cold is a lack of heat. Ask any scientist. Evil cannot exist with out goodness for evil is a lack of goodness. If there is no sliding scale of evil then the mildest infraction is weighted as the same as the most severe. Cursing is the same as Adultery is the same Murder as the same as … All sin is then the same, no mortal or venial - it’s all equally evil. Taking the name of God in vain is the same level as Lucifer’s rebellion.

You keep talking about the nature of goodness. It’s not about goodness, it is the reduction of goodness, this reductive process was made possible by God.
Made possible, true.

Caused, false.

Teacher handbooks with answers keys make it possible for students to cheat. The author of these handbooks do not cause students to cheat. A student’s free choice causes him/her to cheat.
 
It’s a bad analogy because the authors didn’t also design the students.
 
Because God gave us free will and He is omniscient - he knew that we would fall so it must have been His will and the consequences that followed. Evil entering the world was the consequence of our poor choice - he forsaw that - He allowed it - ergo He must have wanted it.
 
Because God gave us free will and He is omniscient - he knew that we would fall so it must have been His will and the consequences that followed. Evil entering the world was the consequence of our poor choice - he forsaw that - He allowed it - ergo He must have wanted it.
Not at all. Have you never allowed something you don’t want? Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils…
 
I am not God - I am a finite being. God is infinite. He is Omnipotent, Benevolent and omniscient. He is not limited.
 
I am not God - I am a finite being. God is infinite. He is Omnipotent, Benevolent and omniscient. He is not limited.
You are losing track of His plan. He did not want to create a world where sin was impossible, though He did not want people to sin. To make a moral universe, which was His plan, people had to have the ability to be sinners or saints. He created a good moral universe and gave all rational creatures the choice of choosing Him or not. After some chose against Him He “sent” His Son to pay the price for their sin, to teach them, and to establish His Church.

He knew some would sin, some would be damned, and some would be Saints. Did He want people to choose Hell, No. He would rather all people would have chosen Him but He gave them the option to choose Hell by the type of universe He created. Could He have created a universe without sin, yes. It would also have been a universe without free will and without love. Love is always a choice.
 
How can anything happen outside God’s will? He is omnipotent - “Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven” Everything that happens is God’s will.
 
How can anything happen outside God’s will? He is omnipotent - “Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven” Everything that happens is God’s will.
When you sin, is this God’s will? I thought God wills that you be in heaven. Sin keeps you out of heaven. How can God will something (sin) that goes against His will (you in heaven)? This a contradiction. And there is no contradiction in God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top