Chuck Missler and his wild anti-catholic views

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How does a Protestant know the Bible itself, which was compiled by men, is true?

Luther was against Papacy, yet base on what authority did he have to take out the 7 deuterocanonical books? Did he just turn himself into the first pope of the Protestant church? If Luther took the books out because it’s not consistent with his beliefs, then that means anybody could add or take out books in the Bible.

Since Protestants don’t believe in an another authority beside the Bible, it begs the question that how do Protestants know their interpretation is right? What do Protestants rely on?

These are questions that nobody could answer.
 
Excellent questions. I don’t know the answer to that- but that doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer to it. I’m more concerned at this point in my life as to what is in the Bible, not what was not included in it.

And I can ask you the same questions to the many things in your faith that I have already brought up that you have either been brainwashed on, or don’t know yourself.

And I know the Bible is true because it’s author is God. Man through the Holy Spirit captures his words, but it is God’s word.

Have a blessed day
How does a Protestant know the Bible itself, which was compiled by men, is true?

Luther was against Papacy, yet base on what authority did he have to take out the 7 deuterocanonical books? Did he just turn himself into the first pope of the Protestant church? If Luther took the books out because it’s not consistent with his beliefs, then that means anybody could add or take out books in the Bible.

Since Protestants don’t believe in an another authority beside the Bible, it begs the question that how do Protestants know their interpretation is right? What do Protestants rely on?

These are questions that nobody could answer.
 
The funny thing is, back when I was protestant, I had no idea and didn’t care about what wasn’t in the Bible. I faintly knew about what Catholics believed, but they were wrong. I, the people I read and listened to, just cared about the Bible.
Then when I felt the call to the Church, I learned about this whole thing called Tradition and the Magisterium, I was astounded! There was so much more the guide my faith and life! It was so rich, so alive!

DFW, I can totally see a fire for Christ in your writing. And I am very glad that you have come to know Our Divine Savior. I have read your posts and am glad I have. While no where close to ever “reverting” (I am not Catholic in name, but I see myself as one in my heart and soul), I have remembered my non-Catholic background and am glad I was a protestant before finding the Church.

May you keep your mind and heart open to Christ, and that as you learn things on these fourms, you teach others.

In Christ,
Never

(P.S. Do you think Mr. Missler gains his information from the same source as Mr. Chick? :p)
 
Excellent questions. I don’t know the answer to that- but that doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer to it.
That is a perfectly good response, and I wish more people would take that humbler, more honest approach rather than trying to bluff their way past something they can’t answer.

Still, if I may, it’s a response that should typically prompt certain thoughts in the person giving it. It’s an invitation to reflection and study. When someone asks me a question that I can’t answer about something I believe, what I have in mind is this: where did I get the belief being questioned? Why don’t I have an answer to that question? etc. (Cf. 1 Pet 3:15.)
I’m more concerned at this point in my life as to what is in the Bible, not what was not included in it. … And I know the Bible is true because it’s author is God. Man through the Holy Spirit captures his words, but it is God’s word.
I don’t think the distinction you’re drawing is so clean as you imply. You want to know better what is in the Bible because what is in the Bible is God’s word, and we should all want to know what God says (ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ, says St. Jerome), right?

But the question of the canon is intimately involved in that proposition, and the authority of the Church is intimately involved in the question of canon. As you say, you know what is in the Bible is true because its author is God. Thus you care what Romans says because it’s God speaking. You care what Ecclesiastes says because it’s God speaking. We want to know what God says, right? And so we should. You wouldn’t accept a new testament that omitted the Gospel of John, right? It would be incomplete, even if it still had “the Bible” written on its title page. And we wouldn’t care about the omission because it devalues the Bible as a piece of literature, but rather, because God speaks to us through John, and we care what God says. So what makes you think that God isn’t speaking through Tobit? Through Maccabees?

The fundamental problem goes beyond the canon, though. The fundamental problem is that your rule of faith is incoherent. It demands that sacred scripture is the only authority available for answering any question, yet scripture doesn’t answer the question of which writings are scripture (why Jude, for instance, and not 1 Clement?). What’s more, scripture doesn’t say that scripture is the only authority, which means that sola scriptura itself is unscriptural. That sounds like a cutesy gotcha point, I know. I know it sounds that way; I’ve heard some Catholic apologists use it as a laugh line—“those dozy protestants!” they seem to insinuate. But I don’t meant it that way. I really would ask you to ponder that point.
 
DFWChristian: I applaud your trying to read and interpret the Bible on your own, however, having come from a Baptist background, there are dangers in relying on your own interpretation. With the Catholic Church (CC), there are about 2000 years of very smart and dedicated people who have been studying the scriptures in much more depth than I can acheive on my own. They have had insights that I would never see on my own, and have had the advantage of oversight, a church structure that evaluates those insights and helps everyone in the CC to understand them and decide if there are errors present in the interpretation that could divide, rather than unite the CC. Are these folks infallible? No, but are they less fallible than one individual might be? Yes!
I have seen the falliblility of individuals in the protestant churches first hand, and you probably do too. There are over 27000 protestant denominations in the USA alone, because of schisms that occur almost daily. My own church split into two separate factions (and eventually two separate churches) over minor doctrinal points because there was no oversite to settle the issues in a universal fashion. In the CC, you can go to Mass ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD and hear the teaching of the Bible, the same verses, with the same interpretations, in any Catholic Church. Think of the prayers being offered AT THE SAME TIME throughout our Land. Talk about praising God!!

Fulton Sheen preached that most people hate what they have been told about the Catholic Church, not what they know about the CC. For example, most Baptists that I know personally think that Catholics don’t read the Bible. They are universally surprised when I point out that at Mass there are three main readings: Old Testament, New testament x 2, with everyone STANDING when the words of our Lord are read. In addition, the responsorial readings are taken directly from the Psalms.
Please understand that we converts have learned to love the CC, while our cradle Catholic brethren came to it more passively, but not necessarily less fervently.

Peace be with you!

Chuck
 
Christ is what’s it all about baby. The most imporant decision we will ever make is who is our Savior. I just wish my old friends think that way and the Catholic girls I know that are living in huge sin- one just sleeping around with numerous guys, and the second who is living with her boyfriend of 3 years before finally getting engaged. I wish my parents would get their heads right with the Lord and I’m concerned greatly with them.

I’m also glad you found the Lord. Whether that is through the Catholic or another Church, it doesn’t matter. The point is you found Him. I’m glad we can disagree on details, yet overall get the point.
The funny thing is, back when I was protestant, I had no idea and didn’t care about what wasn’t in the Bible. I faintly knew about what Catholics believed, but they were wrong. I, the people I read and listened to, just cared about the Bible.
Then when I felt the call to the Church, I learned about this whole thing called Tradition and the Magisterium, I was astounded! There was so much more the guide my faith and life! It was so rich, so alive!

DFW, I can totally see a fire for Christ in your writing. And I am very glad that you have come to know Our Divine Savior. I have read your posts and am glad I have. While no where close to ever “reverting” (I am not Catholic in name, but I see myself as one in my heart and soul), I have remembered my non-Catholic background and am glad I was a protestant before finding the Church.

May you keep your mind and heart open to Christ, and that as you learn things on these fourms, you teach others.

In Christ,
Never

(P.S. Do you think Mr. Missler gains his information from the same source as Mr. Chick? :p)
 
Excellent questions. I don’t know the answer to that- but that doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer to it. I’m more concerned at this point in my life as to what is in the Bible, not what was not included in it.

And I can ask you the same questions to the many things in your faith that I have already brought up that you have either been brainwashed on, or don’t know yourself.

And I know the Bible is true because it’s author is God. Man through the Holy Spirit captures his words, but it is God’s word.

Have a blessed day
Thank you for your response.

I know the Church is right just as just as I know the Bible is true, by reason and by faith. I was not brought up in a Catholic faith, I was brought up by a lukewarm Christian and an atheist, then I converted to Fundamental Christianity, then I finally reach home through the Catholic Church.

You said: “I know the Bible is true because it’s author is God”, yet there are many books outside the Bible, they also claim to be inspired, so why don’t we have those books to be in our Canon? Like many in here said, “God didn’t send us an inspired table of content”, how do you know which book to put in the Bible? The Bible didn’t come down from the sky or according to Islam, given directly by Allah through Gabriel. The Bible was compiled throughout history by both Jews and Christians. Through different councils(Rome, Carthage, Trent…)_the Bible was put together by no other than the Catholic Church. Since you claim that your belief is based in the Bible alone, there’s no way to escape the truth that the Bible itself was brought together by “man-made” tradition.
 
Hey Big D — Houston here. Seems we have a problem 😃

I’ve gone back and read the entire post it’s been so interesting! I don’t know if you’ve noticed but some of the best debaters here are actually converts to Catholicism…just like me!

I was a staunch Baptist for 52 years and am a new Catholic of 4 months still actually going thru RCIA (Rite of Christian Initian for Adults) I won’t kid you it hasn’t been easy. Many of those “Catholic” things took time to understand…like intercession of the Holy Virgin Mary, “real presence” in the Eucharist, etc…

But as I came to see the TRUTH, the FULL and COMPLETE TRUTH in Catholicism I fell in love with Jesus all over again and with His Bride, the Church.
I also felt my foundation get knocked out from under me and experienced an awful sense of betrayal by my Protestant teachers and preachers. Make no mistake…I knew my faith, had read my Bible thru and thru several times, years of Bible study, teaching Sunday School, etc… You know what I’m talking about.

What made me the angriest I think, were the anti-Catholic lies I had been taught about their beliefs. Our, yours and my, opinion were probably pretty close. Catholics don’t read the Bible, it’s the “whore of Babylon” (boy don’t I get tired of hearing that one) Pope as Anti-Christ, etc etc It wasn’t untill I started reading the Catechism while looking for a deeper fuller faith that I started finding out the truth.

For example I am glad there is a teaching authority vested by Christ to maintain the truth and teach us about Him and the Church, Because in Protestantism, without this authority, any time folks disagree about interpretation a division occurs and a new denomination is formed. That’s why there are over 32,000 (thirty-two THOUSAND) different denominations and approx 5000 new ones a year and only One Catholic Church. Christ promised He would keep His Bride pure.

I’ve never regretted the “journey home”, even though I have family very upset with me.
Remember Catholics are people just like Protestants…plenty of drunk whoring irreverant Protestants out there too. Let’s do all with gentleness and in Love (that’s how they’ll know we are Christians)
Keep an open mind, dear brother in Christ. One time I was where you are and someday I pray you will be where I am;)

Your sister in Christ
PS Used to listen to Missler. He’s just wacky…believes UFO’s are demons:eek:
 
[DFWChristian] said: “I know the Bible is true because it’s author is God”, yet there are many books outside the Bible, they also claim to be inspired, so why don’t we have those books to be in our Canon? Like many in here said, “God didn’t send us an inspired table of content”, how do you know which book to put in the Bible? The Bible didn’t come down from the sky or according to Islam, given directly by Allah through Gabriel. The Bible was compiled throughout history by both Jews and Christians. Through different councils(Rome, Carthage, Trent…)_the Bible was put together by no other than the Catholic Church. Since you claim that your belief is based in the Bible alone, there’s no way to escape the truth that the Bible itself was brought together by “man-made” tradition.
My experience—perhaps atypical—has been that many protestants anacronously take “the Bible” as a given. The Bible is the Bible! It is a unity, a singular book whose contents is well-known to all and always has been; indeed, the Bible itself has always been. They don’t ask how it came to be sifted from the larger corpus of early Christian writing. The word “canon” is unfamiliar and suspicious to them. It is obvious to them that the Gospel of Peter is aprocryphal because it isn’t in the Bible.

It is as if they suppose, I sometimes think, that the skies opened at some point shortly after John received his revelations (or perhaps at the time of Martin Luther), and out dropped a fully-formed volume entitled “The Bible”! (Some seem to suppose that the volume that dropped from heaven that day was subtitled “King James Edition,” too!) Of course they don’t think about it consciously in these terms; that would be silly. They don’t think consciously about the question at all, because again, the Bible is the Bible. I have heard more than one preacher give a sermon which tried to get far too much mileage out of a key word, as if they think St. Paul chose that very word, as it exists in contemporary American English! The difficulties of translating across language and culture sometimes seem to slip away.

And quite naturally, starting from that point, they assume that the Catholic Church, for some unknown reason, added those extra books in her so-called Bible. It must have done so, because those books aren’t in the Bible, and so it’s perfectly obvious, by ironclad, inexorable logic, that if those books aren’t in the Bible, and they’re in the Catholic Bible, they must have come from somewhere, so the Church must have added them.

If I may presume, that, I suspect, is DFWChristian’s answer to why Maccabees isn’t an authority. It isn’t in the Bible, and the Catholic Church had no authority to add it to the Bible, as it did at the Council of Trent.

Except, of course, it didn’t. That view is anacronous and ahistoric. The Catholic Church didn’t add them at the Council of Trent; the reformers deleted them. So DFWChristian has it precisely backwards, if I’m correctly assessing his position. The question is not whether the Catholic Church had authority to add to the Bible, but whether protestants had the authority to subtract a number of books from the canon already established.
 
The funny thing is, back when I was protestant, I had no idea and didn’t care about what wasn’t in the Bible. I faintly knew about what Catholics believed, but they were wrong. I, the people I read and listened to, just cared about the Bible.
Then when I felt the call to the Church, I learned about this whole thing called Tradition and the Magisterium, I was astounded! There was so much more the guide my faith and life! It was so rich, so alive!

DFW, I can totally see a fire for Christ in your writing. And I am very glad that you have come to know Our Divine Savior. I have read your posts and am glad I have. While no where close to ever “reverting” (I am not Catholic in name, but I see myself as one in my heart and soul), I have remembered my non-Catholic background and am glad I was a protestant before finding the Church.

May you keep your mind and heart open to Christ, and that as you learn things on these fourms, you teach others.

In Christ,
Never

(P.S. Do you think Mr. Missler gains his information from the same source as Mr. Chick? :p)
Hi Never and DFW. I have also come from a protestant background to find the true meaning of the ‘Living Word’ of the bible through the wholeness of the Catholic Church. It was within the Catholic Church that I found the only path towards a oneness with God, which is an ongoing discovery. Before this, although searching, I only lived on the periphery of knowing about God. The more I travel the path within the Catholic Church, by the power of the Holy Spirit,the more I experience the love, truth, mercy, peace and freedom which is our inheritance.

Enjoy the journey!

Discoverer
 
I don’t want to get too off the subject here, but I’m curious - what, other than the fact that you don’t believe it exists, makes you think the thief on the cross didn’t go to purgatory?
Unlike DFWChristian, I do believe in purgatory but I think a case can be made that the thief was not sent to purgatory;
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, **today **you will be with me in Paradise.”
Note Jesus did not say
“Amen, I say to you, you will be with me in Paradise. (after a cleansing trip through purgatory)”

Perhaps the thief got his final judgment right then and there.

Now to get really off topic… is there any Tradition that names the thief or do any venerate him as a saint? After all Jesus’ words amount to the first canonization in history.
 
Unlike DFWChristian, I do believe in purgatory but I think a case can be made that the thief was not sent to purgatory;

Note Jesus did not say
“Amen, I say to you, you will be with me in Paradise. (after a cleansing trip through purgatory)”

Perhaps the thief got his final judgment right then and there.

Now to get really off topic… is there any Tradition that names the thief or do any venerate him as a saint? After all Jesus’ words amount to the first canonization in history.
I would have to object to the comma placement in that verse. The comma should be after the “today”, not before it. Because while it is completely possible that the thief was in heaven that day, scripture goes on to explain that Jesus went into the earth for three days, then rose, and hung around on earth for 40 days before going to heaven. So while the thief might have been in heaven that day, he was not in heaven WITH Jesus that day. Which means that the comma before “today” would be kind of a grammatical error. Greek didn’t have commas from what I hear. 👍
 
Even the “book” says the church is the final authority, that is “the pillar and foundation.” So historical scholarship is lacking as well as bible knowledge with this guy.
 
murphjos, I think everyone will happily agree with you that anyone who receives a de facto plenary indulgence from Christ Jesus, personally, will skip purgatory. 😉
 
Today I was listening to Chuck Missler’s 66/40 radio program…
You only need to look at the name of his programme to know what he’s emphasizing. It affirms the Protestant 66-book canon of Scripture.
He is a convincing speaker with impressive professional credentials. But his Bible teachings are way out there!
Well, he’s above average as a Bible teacher. But his credentials are…well…interesting. I think he was in the army, then a businessman (not a great success either). He got his doctorate from one of those unaccredited Baptist ‘seminaries’.

Blessings,
zdon
 
Scripture isn’t God breathed? Can you comment on this verse then: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness- 2 Timothy 3:16
Neither is the Trinity. Do you call the Trinity the Trinity despite never being mentioned once in the Bible?

Which Scripture tells you that Scripture is ‘God-breathed’. God’s breath is very important in Scripture. God breathes life into humanity in Genesis, and Christ breathes on the Apostles to give them the Holy Spirit. The idea that the Bible is ‘God-breathed’ isn’t biblical.
 
What verse did that come from? That’s completely incorrect. TThe only thing greater than God is his word.

I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.- Psalm 138:2

That’s really messed up sir if you think the Church can compare to God’s word. We are all sinners and God is perfect. His word is without flaw, where the Church has many flaws.
Even the “book” says the church is the final authority, that is “the pillar and foundation.” So historical scholarship is lacking as well as bible knowledge with this guy.
 
Scripture isn’t God breathed? Can you comment on this verse then: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness- 2 Timothy 3:16
I have it has “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice” 2 Timothy 3:16. (Douay Rheims)

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” - KJV

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, " - RSV

“All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness” - NAB

Soooo I’m going to stick with the translation that seems the most promulgated.

-Prophecy
 
Scripture isn’t God breathed? Can you comment on this verse then: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness- 2 Timothy 3:16
Most versions don’t use “God-breathed” but instead “inspired by God” which seems much more clear to me. I mean really what does “God-breathed” mean? *

It was translated in the Vulgate as "divinitus inspirata (“divinely breathed into”). Which seem to me less ambiguous, but maybe not as “cool” as “God-breathed”.

That silliness asside, given that Catholics agree that “scripture” was “inspired by God” [God-breathed] I wonder where what consititues “scripture” is defined in “scripture.”

Isn’t 2 Timothy 3:16 of very little use without a determination of what writings were God-breathed?

Chuck

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, - NIV

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, - NAB
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; -NASB

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - KJV

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, -NKJV

Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. - ASV

Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; - Darby*
 
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jebeau:
Even the “book” says the church is the final authority, that is “the pillar and foundation.” So historical scholarship is lacking as well as bible knowledge with this guy.
What verse did that come from? That’s completely incorrect.
He’s quoting—accurately—1 Tim 3:15, which even NIV translates as “if I [Paul] am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
The only thing greater than God is his word.
You believe that Christ, the word of God, is superior to God?
We are all sinners and God is perfect. His word is without flaw, where the Church has many flaws.
God’s word is without flaw. But we don’t typically read God’s word—we read the Bible, a human rendering of it. Were the people who wrote down his word without flaw? Were the people who translated it without flaw? Are the translations themselves without flaw? And if so, how to account for the differences between various translations?
Isn’t 2 Timothy 3:16 of very little use without a determination of what writings were God-breathed?
Exactly. When Paul wrote this letter, “scripture” meant the Jewish scriptures, i.e. (in effect) the septuagint. The question for those trying to determine the canon was to determine which writings, out of a vast corpus of early Christian writing, were inspired and thus to be taken as scripture.
 
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