Church is in the dark about gays

[Libero]

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely,if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50

90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52

Hi fix,

whilst your quotes do combat my point, they are from the CCC, they were specifically made to defend the dogmas, they have been manufactured with profound thought, they are hardly likely to side with me when they are in a book designed to defend the doctrines…

 

[rlg94086]

No good Catholic would chastise a gay man dying of AIDS and suffering terribly. What do you think, orthodox Catholics are monsters?

You seem to think that people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works, whereas Catholics who do good works don’t concern themselves with doctrine and dogma. Ridiculous! These things can and do go hand-in-hand.

Libero:

The moments when she ‘chastised’ so to speak were rare, frequently over matters such as abortion. She was one who did not concern herself with defending doctrines, but rather got into the nitty gritty, working with the people who needed it. Her orthodoxy, apparent as you say, did not interfeer with her work, she would frequently assist people dying of aids, and would not refuse help to those who contracted it through homosexual acts or other ways she deemed immoral.

And this is my entire point. Sometimes, love overides law. Do you think she cared about chastising the gay man who was dying of AIDS and suffering terribly, when in fact she could nurse him and give him a peaceful death?

 

[fix]

Libero:

And this is my entire point. Sometimes, love overides law. Do you think she cared about chastising the gay man who was dying of AIDS and suffering terribly, when in fact she could nurse him and give him a peaceful death?

You are confusing issues. Love and the moral law do not contradict. Why would she, or anyone, chastize a dying person?

 

[Libero]

rlg94086:

No good Catholic would chastise a gay man dying of AIDS and suffering terribly. What do you think, orthodox Catholics are monsters?

You seem to think that people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works, whereas Catholics who do good works don’t concern themselves with doctrine and dogma. Ridiculous! These things can and do go hand-in-hand.

I have had some rather bad experiences with orthodox catholics… but you are right I am being unfair.

I do not think that all people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works nor the opposite, but I am concerned with becoming obsessed with dogma, using it to acheive things that are not all that good, when in reality we could be achieving great feats, fueled by love, and Christ’s own words rather than the terms of an eminent theologian.

 

[fix]

Libero:

Hi fix,

whilst your quotes do combat my point, they are from the CCC, they were specifically made to defend the dogmas, they have been manufactured with profound thought, they are hardly likely to side with me when they are in a book designed to defend the doctrines…

Libero,

Your entire position here cannot be defended.

These confusing issues are all reconciled when we have a proper understanding of truth, logic and an authentically open mind that is receptive to truth.

I am not trying to be captious.

 

[rlg94086]

I think we are all called to do the good works of the Church, but we need to also understand, teach and defend the teaching of the Church. However, do keep in mind that our gifts are not all the same:

Some can sing or play music and devote their lives to it.
Some have great theological minds and devote their lives to doctrine and dogma.
Some have great mathematical minds and work as accountants for the Church.
Etcetera…

All of these gifts are important to the Body of Christ. We all need to do our best in our vocations. I’ve seen differences of emphasis with priests over the years, as well. Some priests focus on life issues, some on confession, some on teaching, etc. We need them all.

God bless,

Robert

Libero:

I have had some rather bad experiences with orthodox catholics… but you are right I am being unfair.

I do not think that all people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works nor the opposite, but I am concerned with becoming obsessed with dogma, using it to acheive things that are not all that good, when in reality we could be achieving great feats, fueled by love, and Christ’s own words rather than the terms of an eminent theologian.

 

[Libero]

rlg94086:

I think we are all called to do the good works of the Church, but we need to also understand, teach and defend the teaching of the Church. However, do keep in mind that our gifts are not all the same:

Some can sing or play music and devote their lives to it.
Some have great theological minds and devote their lives to doctrine and dogma.
Some have great mathematical minds and work as accountants for the Church.
Etcetera…

God bless,

Robert

I hear your comment, we sould ‘exploit’ our talent given by God in order to carry out good works. I think…

 

[setter]

I have had some rather bad experiences with orthodox catholics… but you are right I am being unfair.

I do not think that all people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works nor the opposite, but I am concerned with becoming obsessed with dogma, using it to acheive things that are not all that good, when in reality we could be achieving great feats, fueled by love, and Christ’s own words rather than the terms of an eminent theologian.

Trust issues? You can trust the Church to correctly, safely and compassionately guide you in matters of faith and morals so as to protect your soul from eternal damnation. Jesus Christ entrusted Himself to the Church, made up of imperfect people, to look after the Flock upon His departure from this earth. One must be careful at times to not confuse the message of truth with the messenger.

The goal should be to seek out and feast on food that is good for the soul. Whether the messenger is a dry, disinterested appearing eminent theologian, or a charismatic, effusive orthodox priest, should be a secondary consideration for accepting authoritative Church teaching or not. It takes maturity in the virtues to speak the truth in love, and to humbly submit to the truth in love.

 

[trustmc]

Libero:

Jesus gave the church the authority to teach what he had taught. The messages which were established, and the messages that he regarded to be so important.

Christ did not tell us to create doctrines and dogmas and then hold them in such high esteem, he taught us to live with religion, not to become obsessed with the words we have written in regards to it. Were we supposed to go and make all these dogmas and doctrines and then give them a status of such importance as to imply that they are the words of God himself?

Jesus did more than give the Church the authority to teach what he had taught. He gave the Church promise and the Holy Spirit. His promise was that the Church would teach only that which already “bound” and “loosed” in heaven, Matt 16:

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And he also gave the Holy Spirit to remind the Church of everything He taught in His earthly ministry, which was not all recorded in the Gospels (Jn 21:25), and even more following His departure, John 14:26:

26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name – he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.

The promise and Spiritual gift allows the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops in union with Peter, to take subsequent teaching and incorporate them into the deposit of faith. A good example of this was when Peter and the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem were guided by the Spirit on the doctrine of circumcision (Acts 15). They could not consult scripture at the time because the Old Testament didn’t address circumcision for Christian gentiles. Yet, the doctrine proved valid simply because the authorities decreed it.

The same process is used to formulate doctrines as made necessary by historical conditions. Paul, having the gift of Apostleship as a successor to the original disciples continued to teach homosexuality as a barrier to receiving salvific grace, which is continued to this day by the Catholic Church authorities. Warning others of the barriers to grace is hardly hateful when motivated by the desire to see all God’s children receive His gift of eternal salvation.

I think that you would do no less than to warn a drug addict that continuance in a destructive behavior will lead to his ultimate nihilism if he doesn’t change his behavior. There is a reason we refer to this as tough love. I understand that drug addiction and homosexual behavior are not the same thing in practice, but they do have this in common: both lead to destruction of some sort; the former to physical and mental destruction; and the latter to spiritual destruction.

Like mother Theresa who couldn’t stand by idly and let the beggars perish, it would be remiss of our Church authorities if they allowed unrepentant sinners to destroy themselves.

Mike

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

Why is the church an authority? Because the popes of years past told us so? The church is not a council in heaven, and the pope is not a demi-God. The church is very much so flawed.

I do not reject teachings of the church either, I simply listen to some more than others, and I would not criticise others for having more faith in the institution of the church than me, but would rather want to help them to see that the church can only take us so far, sometimes we have to act in Christ by ourself.

They have authority because Christ GAVEthem the authority. If I am faced with a choice between following the Church or following Libero I guarantee you it is not a hard decision to make.

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

Hi fix,

whilst your quotes do combat my point, they are from the CCC, they were specifically made to defend the dogmas, they have been manufactured with profound thought, they are hardly likely to side with me when they are in a book designed to defend the doctrines…

I wonder how you reconcile this with your assertion you don’t reject the church’s teachings?

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

I have had some rather bad experiences with orthodox catholics… but you are right I am being unfair.

I do not think that all people who speak about Catholic doctrine and dogma don’t do any good works nor the opposite, but I am concerned with becoming obsessed with dogma, using it to acheive things that are not all that good, when in reality we could be achieving great feats, fueled by love, and Christ’s own words rather than the terms of an eminent theologian.

The bad experience you have had with orthodox Catholics is that they refuse to accept your distortions of Catholic teaching.

 

[estesbob]

fix:

Libero,

Your entire position here cannot be defended.

These confusing issues are all reconciled when we have a proper understanding of truth, logic and an authentically open mind that is receptive to truth.

I am not trying to be captious.

The Libero’s position is quite clear. The church’s teachings on homosexuality are wrong. Anyone who adheres these teachings are also wrong. How he came to these profound conclusions is anybody’s guess.

 

[mary_bobo]

estesbob:

The bad experience you have had with orthodox Catholics is that they refuse to accept your distortions of Catholic teaching.

Right on and AMEN.

 

[estesbob]

mary bobo:

Right on and AMEN.

You know Mary, and I’m not singling out Libero out here, I am to tired of being treated like a bigot for expressing my support for Catholic teachings. I just don’t know why people don’t realize they don’t have to figure all these complex issues out by themselves. We have 2000 years of teachings and traditions to guide us along the way. The idea that in the latter part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century we have gotten more “enlightened” is ludicrous. It is presentism at its worst. It is bad enough when secular society attacks Our beliefs but worse yet when members of our own church do it.

 

[bones_IV]

Libero:

I understand where she is coming from though, she wants to promote a message of simple love. We, christians, are perhaps the religion that is most obsessed with doctrine, we bask in our power and our definitive understandings.

We are a cold and pedantic orthodoxy, when it would be so much nicer to be a dynamic and lively orthoproxy. We are always sure that we are right, to the point of excluding those who do not obey us, to the point of making others feel like outcasts and rejects, lesser children of God, when this is certainly not the case.

The author brings up an important point in regards to opening our arms and welcoming all into our church, unconditionally.

This post is quite laughable.

What’s so pastoral about letting souls dance their merry way to hell? This author has the Devil as her father.

 

[bones_IV]

estesbob:

You know Mary, and I’m not singling out Libero out here, I am to tired of being treated like a bigot for expressing my support for Catholic teachings. I just don’t know why people don’t realize they don’t have to figure all these complex issues out by themselves. We have 2000 years of teachings and traditions to guide us along the way. The idea that in the latter part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century we have gotten more “enlightened” is ludicrous. It is presentism at its worst. It is bad enough when secular society attacks Our beliefs but worse yet when members of our own church do it.

So am I. Estesbob, I will say that I’m also tired of these same heretics tearing the house of God down. These devils can say what they want, but this lady’s article is an example of what Cardinal Wotjyla said before he became Pope John Paul II, "We are seeing an age of the anti-gospel vs. gospel, and the anti-church vs. the church.

 

[Rebecca_New]

Since I have a working relationship with some gay people I have been forced to associate with them-probably for my own good. SA has been around since the Old Testament days-for some reason God has addressed the subject through His written Work and also through His Word made Flesh-Our Lord Jesus Christ. So we can not hide from the facts or say just make the problem go away. Just as any of us that have unchaste thoughts and actions SA have to fight for chastity in their life. As they win the battle it will show in their life. If they give in to these unchaste actions, that will show in their life also. We will be affected by these sinful actions just as we are affected by anyone who is unchaste for whatever reason. How many people have been affected by incest? From rape? From prostitution? All unchaste actions. But what about the lesser offences like dressing in unchaste clothes-telling obscene jokes, flirting, lusting? The Church has set forth rules to live by, and as difficult as they are to follow sometimes, we all benefit from the majority of people who live according to our Faith. God, have mercy on us… :getholy:

 

[Sandtigress]

I think our dear author of the article forgets that even though Jesus indeed did associate with the likes of the adulterous woman and Mary Magdalene, He also told them “Go, and sin no more.”

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Not as easy said as done, but its what we’re all called to. But we have to love them too much to let them stay the way they are, right?

 

[estesbob]

This post is quite laughable.

What’s so pastoral about letting souls dance their merry way to hell? This author has the Devil as her father.

Reminds me of the answwer our Polish pastor gave to a parishioner upset about his abortion and voting for politicians sermon during the 2004 election. Our pastor has only been in this country for about 10 years and has a tendency to be quite blunt. The parishioner told him that he had remember we have freedom of speech in this country. His reply was yes and you have the freedom to go to hell too!

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