Church Mariology making me nuts!

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johnbres2 said:
Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

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Jesus was giving Mary the highest praise by saying that she did the will of the Father! That’s what is so special about Mary, her constant yes to God! Not the slightest stain on her. Perfect! Love Ya Mary!!!
 
Cranch said:
My point was to emphasize that Mary alone was conceived without sin, not who in Scripture may have had their sins forgiven or through grace led a sinless life. As you affirm the Baptist was not conceived sinless. It is a pious belief of some that because the angel told Zachary his son would be filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, that he was born without sin. And yet Luke also says at the time the child leapt in her womb, Elizabeth was also filled with the Holy Spirit. Did Elizabeth receive sanctifying grace? I certainly can’t say. Recall also that John the Baptist desired baptism from Jesus.

Sanctifying grace is conferred at baptism, yet we nevertheless are not freed from the urge to sin. Is it possible to know whether or not any biblical figure who may have received sanctifying grace remained in that state permanently? As Paul wrote to the baptized faithful in Phillipians: “Wherefore, my dearly beloved…with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”
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It just seems that these holy people who loved God and did his will would have the baptism of desire. And being holy people and previleged ones, they would have been very close to God.
I may have a very one sided vision of God, but I think he loves us beyond anything we can imagine and would want us to be close to him. His love is so infinite that I don’t think he can help himself to do everything possible for us.

Just a thought that Joseph, John, Moses, Abraham, and so many were once with him on earth and they are now in heaven.
 
iloveangels said:
That’s allegory and it’s a little wild, blood coursing through veins and all that. Unfounded allegory can be a problem. If you want to say something like this in public you have to have substantial doctrinal support and you don’t. This is just your opinion. So if you want to think of this like this, it’s devotional only and it’s your thing, but you can’t teach it as church doctrine because it’s NOT.
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I did say in my opinion, right? Where did I say that it is doctrine?

But the emphasis of the twin hearts in the Church tells me that there is some deep connection between both hearts that we are missing, and we also know in the Old Testament that blood and flesh was something special to God. Also I ponder if we become the spiritual descendants of Abraham every time one consumes the Eucharist and get grafted onto the covenant. Why did God choose flesh and blood and not something unbloody? Why choose something so offensive to Jews? Unless there is some deeper reason into why blood was chosen.
 
InJesusItrust said:
I did say in my opinion, right? Where did I say that it is doctrine?

But the emphasis of the twin hearts in the Church tells me that there is some deep connection between both hearts that we are missing, and we also know in the Old Testament that blood and flesh was something special to God. Also I ponder if we become the spiritual descendants of Abraham every time one consumes the Eucharist and get grafted onto the covenant. Why did God choose flesh and blood and not something unbloody? Why choose something so offensive to Jews? Unless there is some deeper reason into why blood was chosen.
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You are entitled to your opinion.
 
JM3 said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9934467&postcount=95

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9934525&postcount=99
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Mark121359 said:
Jesus was giving Mary the highest praise by saying that she did the will of the Father! That’s what is so special about Mary, her constant yes to God! Not the slightest stain on her. Perfect! Love Ya Mary!!!
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Mark …
I think u have overreached here …to come up with this interpretation… from that scripture
 
Nita said:
There’s no difficulty. Jesus is saying that Mary is more to be blessed - will receive more blessing - because she chose to do God’s will (Luke 1:38 “…be it done to me according to thy word.”) than for the fact that Jesus was physically present in her womb.

Exactly…

Jesus was saying Mary’s familial ties to him were not the crux of the matter…rather ANYONE can enjoy/possess SPIRITUAL TIES to him, which make us just as blessed, IF WE BELIEVE AND DO HIS WILL …

We are not to focus excessively on Mary, to the neglect of all our EQUALLY BLESSED CHRISTIAN FOREBEARS,SAINTS, & contemporary brothers-sisters IN CHRIST.
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brb3 said:
Mark …
I think u have overreached here …to come up with this interpretation… from that scripture
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No, I haven’t overreached at all. I’m simply repeating what I’ve heard many such as Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Wade Menezes and practically all those on EWTN and most especially what Pope John Paul ll said in his encyclical “Redemptoris Mater”…

“Is Jesus thereby distancing himself from his mother according to the flesh? Does he perhaps wish to leave her in the hidden obscurity which she herself has chosen? If this seems to be the case from the tone of those words, one must nevertheless note that the new and different motherhood which Jesus speaks of to his disciples refers precisely to Mary in a very special way. Is not Mary the first of “those who hear the word of God and do it”? And therefore does not the blessing uttered by Jesus in response to the woman in the crowd refer primarily to her? ** Without any doubt, Mary is worthy of blessing by the very fact that she became the mother of Jesus according to the flesh (“Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked”), but also and especially because already at the Annunciation she accepted the word of God, because she believed it, because she was obedient to God, and because she “kept” the word and “pondered it in her heart” (cf. Lk. 1:38, 45; 2:19, 51) and by means of her whole life accomplished it. Thus we can say that the blessing proclaimed by Jesus is not in opposition, despite appearances, to the blessing uttered by the unknown woman, but rather coincides with that blessing in the person of this Virgin Mother, who called herself only “the handmaid of the Lord” (Lk. 1:38). ** If it is true that “all generations will call her blessed” (cf. Lk. 1:48), then it can be said that the unnamed woman was the first to confirm unwittingly that prophetic phrase of Mary’s Magnificat and to begin the Magnificat of the ages.”

So again, I believe that I am not overreaching in respect to the Virgin Mary. I pray that you take another look at our Lady.
 
Chrish1975 said:
I am distressed at the amount of dedication that some Catholics have to Mary also. I don’t pray the rosary and very rarely say hail Mary. Mary is just another saint to me. Christ is the sole reason for my salvation and hope.
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Thank you for bringing this up. I’m sure there are others who are thinking along those same lines. And it is a struggle to understand our Catholic faith since there is so much to understand.

Maybe I can help shed some light.

The rosary is really only a bible on a string.
And in particular the life of Jesus.
It may seem a little strange at first so here are some helpful ideas.

Thoughts for each decade of the rosary, for each bead.
rosary-center.org/joyful.htm
rosary-center.org/luminous.htm
rosary-center.org/glorious.htm
rosary-center.org/sorrow.htm

History of the Rosary
catholicapologetics.org/ap080600.htm

You can try Methods of saying the Rosary by St. Louis de Montfort
montfort.org.uk/Writings/MSR.html

Scriptural rosary
ainglkiss.com/ros/sr.htm

How to say and pray the rosary
familyrosary.org/en/TheRosary.aspx

Thoughts for each decade of the rosary
rosary-center.org/howto.htm

Scriptual thoughts
how-to-pray-the-rosary-everyday.com/military-victories-through-the-rosary.html

Pray the rosary in 17 minutes with online audio.
catholicity.com/cds/rosary.html

You mentioned,
“Christ is the sole reason for my salvation and hope.”

Mary would say the same, “Christ is the sole reason for my salvation and hope.”
And she said this in the Magnificat to Elizabeth.

The Catechism says in 970, “Mary’s function as mother of men, in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power.”

How does it show its power? We see it in the story of Cana. Or we see it in “two heads are better than one.” Or “where two or three are gathered together, there I am …”

But the best answer is she is closest to the source of power, her son. She is his mother. Being his Mother she can obtain enormous help from the source of all strength. Being his mother, Jesus, because of his love for her, wishes to give her all that she wants.
But being our mother also, she wishes us to be with her in heaven, all her children.

Therefore:

“Mary’s function as mother of men, in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power.”

By being a truely concerned mother for all of us, her real children, brothers/sisters to her son, and being next to her son to plead for us.

That is why when we say she is the “highest” in heaven, we recognize that she is in a position to do us the most good, and that Jesus has done us the greatest favor by placing her there where she is in a position to do this for her children.

Just a few thoughts.
 
Mark121359 said:
No, I haven’t overreached at all. I’m simply repeating what I’ve heard many such as Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Wade Menezes and practically all those on EWTN and most especially what Pope John Paul ll said in his encyclical “Redemptoris Mater”…

“Is Jesus thereby distancing himself from his mother according to the flesh? Does he perhaps wish to leave her in the hidden obscurity which she herself has chosen? If this seems to be the case from the tone of those words, one must nevertheless note that the new and different motherhood which Jesus speaks of to his disciples refers precisely to Mary in a very special way. Is not Mary the first of “those who hear the word of God and do it”? And therefore does not the blessing uttered by Jesus in response to the woman in the crowd refer primarily to her? ** Without any doubt, Mary is worthy of blessing by the very fact that she became the mother of Jesus according to the flesh (“Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked”), but also and especially because already at the Annunciation she accepted the word of God, because she believed it, because she was obedient to God, and because she “kept” the word and “pondered it in her heart” (cf. Lk. 1:38, 45; 2:19, 51) and by means of her whole life accomplished it. Thus we can say that the blessing proclaimed by Jesus is not in opposition, despite appearances, to the blessing uttered by the unknown woman, but rather coincides with that blessing in the person of this Virgin Mother, who called herself only “the handmaid of the Lord” (Lk. 1:38). ** If it is true that “all generations will call her blessed” (cf. Lk. 1:48), then it can be said that the unnamed woman was the first to confirm unwittingly that prophetic phrase of Mary’s Magnificat and to begin the Magnificat of the ages.”

So again, I believe that I am not overreaching in respect to the Virgin Mary. I pray that you take another look at our Lady.
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That is your devotional stuff and that’s fine. Some people have a Marian spirituality type, but not everyone does. Mary has a role in salvation history that’s been amply described in Church teaching and that’s what a person has to give their assent to. Marian apparitions (Fatima etc) and all that are optional.
 
To whomever it may concern–a general statement directed at no-one personally:
The experience of being STRONG-ARMED by a Marian hyper-enthusiast is not a good one for many people. This is important to keep in mind. It can have the opposite effect to the one hoped. It can drive people off and often does. It can appear very imbalanced.
 
iloveangels said:
That is your devotional stuff and that’s fine. Some people have a Marian spirituality type, but not everyone does. The experience of being STRONG-ARMED by a Marian hyper-enthusiast is not a good one for many people. Keep that in mind please.
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But, how is that strongarmed. You’re the one giving your opinions. I’m giving you not my opinions but an encyclical from a Great Pope. Show me a theologians point of view that supports your point of view of Mary. I can give you many including Hans Urs von Balthasar, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger ( Pope Benedict XVl) to name a few who support JPll. I suggest you read Redemptoris Mater. This encyclical far outways what your or my opinion of Mary is!
 
I can’t spout church doctrine on Mary and it seems there have been enough articles linked and enough opinion stated. Therefore I will bear witness that the Holy Rosary has had a great impact on my life and sanity. It seems strange looking from the outside, I was raised protestant, the Churches veneration of Mary was one of the reasons I was told Catholics were going to hell. However sitting with Our Lady, meditating on the life of her son and giving glory to God has helped a tired veteran start to release some of the burden of the horrors of war.
 
Hi John,

Reading your posts, I get the impression that your problem is not about the teaching, but the devotions that so many Catholics practice to honor Mary.Well, I’ve got good news for you : you do not have to practice any of them.

I suggest your say the Hail Mary once a day, thus fulfilling the prophecy “All shall call me blessed”. The Hail Mary is biblical and so is the prophecy. Make sure you mean what you pray.

WARNING : Mary will catch you when you least expect it.
 
Radyj said:
However sitting with Our Lady, meditating on the life of her son and giving glory to God has helped a tired veteran start to release some of the burden of the horrors of war.
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👍 Amen! And thank you for your service to our country and God Bless You!
 
What a great collection of reply posts, showing again why catholic answers forums are as good as it gets; and also showing why there is a need for a magisterial authority to be the final word on matters of doctrine!

Since my OP, I have come back under the wing of Mary, and humbly am willing to follow Church teaching on her. Another great resource in this regard is Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity,” where at pp. 319-326 he sets forth great explanations of Mary’s importance.

One important point for me to remember (because I have trouble with consistency on the devotional front) is that Catholicism is a “big tent” and I do not have to spend a lot of time on devotion to Mary if that is not where I feel called to more fully form my faith. She is there for me, though, when I am ready to call upon her. I will try to stay humble and continue to pray and study. Thank you all.
 
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